Ten Hag sacked | Ruud appointed Interim Manager

[Oranges038]

I agree. But the difference with Slot is he has Liverpool at the top of the table and if he wins it in his first season with only signing 1 of his own players then that already beats Klopp.

Klopp left him a good sqaud and he hasn't changed much in terms of play style. Let's see how he does when he has to sign his own players to replace the likes of Salah and VVD.

 

[romufc]

ETH completely lost the plot in terms of his best eleven, the subs he used, when he used them, his tactics and leaving underperforming players on for far too long. If we’d let him go in the summer I’m sure we’d be a good 6-9pts better off at this season.

We dont know that.. the options in the summer were Tuchel or Di Zerbi... neither really are exciting.

It was a matter of shall we change for sake of changing or do we change for a manager we believe in.. they chose the latter. I know who I would rather have if given the choice between Amorim, Di Zerbi and Tuchel.

 

[MadDogg]

We dont know that.. the options in the summer were Tuchel or Di Zerbi... neither really are exciting.

It was a matter of shall we change for sake of changing or do we change for a manager we believe in.. they chose the latter. I know who I would rather have if given the choice between Amorim, Di Zerbi and Tuchel.

Considering Amorim was interviewing for the Liverpool and West Ham jobs, we could easily have got him in the summer if he was the one we wanted. Indeed it's almost certain that we did talk to him and the media just never got a sniff about it (it's become quite obvious the media have no real sources with the new hierarchy).

 

[romufc]

Considering Amorim was interviewing for the Liverpool and West Ham jobs, we could easily have got him in the summer if he was the one we wanted. Indeed it's almost certain that we did talk to him and the media just never got a sniff about it (it's become quite obvious the media have no real sources with the new hierarchy).

We did and he said he wanted to stay.. he rejected those jobs.. well at least West Ham as he wanted to stay.

He decided it was 1 more year, but has left early.

Also, the people at United to make those decisions were in place mid July... once pre season had started.

So Berrada and Ashworth come in, they need time to assess the situation and decide on the style they want to play... then go look for managers in that style.

That takes time, I am sure alot of us were saying lets get a modern structure, so why do most fans want the owners to make football decisions and not the footballing structure?

 

[tjb]

Speaking of Dutch managers, Arnie Slot seems to be a better communicator than ETH. Even his command of the English language is heaps better. I wonder if most of ETH’s failures were because he struggled to actually convey his ideas to the team (the language barrier being one of the challenges) and ended up confusing and demotivating them even more?

I struggle to believe that ETH as a professional manager with CL experience could be that tactically clueless. The worst manager alongside Moyes despite winning 2 trophies.

I think its a mix of both.

I think as a communicator, he's terrible, but as a club, when going for managers, we have a propensity for hiring egotistical managers who like to punish players. Well, to do that effectively, you have to be able to communicate effectively. I also think he struggled to get information across tactically. However, I do think he was inept for this level of football. I think he was a lot more one dimensional than people would like to admit, depending on high amounts of overloads at Ajax. That worked in Holland as the league is much slower and Ajax were technically and physically superior to any other team they encountered. There's a reason that outside of City, top teams don't have as much fluidity throughout the team, because it opens teams up to counters. At Ajax, the weakness of other teams meant that this couldn't be exploited; in England, that wasn't the case.

The problem with a lot of Dutch managers is that they have playing philosophies that they stick squarely to, and due to believing its superiority to other playing styles, don't really learn or adapt to new styles that may be more effective. It's like they're all given this playbook, and follow the same instructions, but where Cruyff could adapt the rules of this, given the situation, alot of them arrogantly stick to these principles and don't learn how to adapt. Slot and Hiddink being the exceptions. We were so bad last season because ETH did not know how to adapt. He couldn't adapt to our injury crisis, he couldn't adapt our tactics to meet the demands of the league and once his plan A couldn't work, he resorted to trying to completely bypass the midfield. He was extremely one note and his in game management shows his flaws in plain sight. He can't recognize issues, he can't adapt to change and quite frankly, I'm not sure he could read the game. What I saw is a manager who could put shapes together, but didn't know why they worked or didn't worked. He just knew in the past, he'd tried it and it had. As a result, when he needed to adapt it, he couldn't. For example, Pep has had multiple formations since he started at Barca. When he arrived at City, despite having a strong squad, his high possession system struggled immensely to deal with counter attacks. Pep understood why this was the case, aging full backs combined with the amount of players committed high up the pitch having to combat the physicality of teams geared with the strength, pace and power to counter. As a response to this, in 17-18, he started inverting his full backs, using Zinchenko and Delph at LB. In 23-24, ETH bought Mason Mount and planned to go into the season with him playing in central midfield. He'd seen City and Arsenal employ Attacking Midfielders as CM's and assumed based on nothing other than hope, that it would work. He copied their system, mixing it with his own. He exposed Casemiro to so much pressure with his 4141, ending his international career and damaging his reputation, as United were slaughtered week to week, with no change in sight. He didn't know how to press, didn't know how to keep the team compact, didn't know how to create build up opportunities, and more than any other flaw, didn't know how to create opportunities for our striker.

 

[Borys]

I think its a mix of both.

I think as a communicator, he's terrible, but as a club, when going for managers, we have a propensity for hiring egotistical managers who like to punish players. Well, to do that effectively, you have to be able to communicate effectively. I also think he struggled to get information across tactically. However, I do think he was inept for this level of football. I think he was a lot more one dimensional than people would like to admit, depending on high amounts of overloads at Ajax. That worked in Holland as the league is much slower and Ajax were technically and physically superior to any other team they encountered. There's a reason that outside of City, top teams don't have as much fluidity throughout the team, because it opens teams up to counters. At Ajax, the weakness of other teams meant that this couldn't be exploited; in England, that wasn't the case.

The problem with a lot of Dutch managers is that they have playing philosophies that they stick squarely to, and due to believing its superiority to other playing styles, don't really learn or adapt to new styles that may be more effective. It's like they're all given this playbook, and follow the same instructions, but where Cruyff could adapt the rules of this, given the situation, alot of them arrogantly stick to these principles and don't learn how to adapt. Slot and Hiddink being the exceptions. We were so bad last season because ETH did not know how to adapt. He couldn't adapt to our injury crisis, he couldn't adapt our tactics to meet the demands of the league and once his plan A couldn't work, he resorted to trying to completely bypass the midfield. He was extremely one note and his in game management shows his flaws in plain sight. He can't recognize issues, he can't adapt to change and quite frankly, I'm not sure he could read the game. What I saw is a manager who could put shapes together, but didn't know why they worked or didn't worked. He just knew in the past, he'd tried it and it had. As a result, when he needed to adapt it, he couldn't. For example, Pep has had multiple formations since he started at Barca. When he arrived at City, despite having a strong squad, his high possession system struggled immensely to deal with counter attacks. Pep understood why this was the case, aging full backs combined with the amount of players committed high up the pitch having to combat the physicality of teams geared with the strength, pace and power to counter. As a response to this, in 17-18, he started inverting his full backs, using Zinchenko and Delph at LB. In 23-24, ETH bought Mason Mount and planned to go into the season with him playing in central midfield. He'd seen City and Arsenal employ Attacking Midfielders as CM's and assumed based on nothing other than hope, that it would work. He copied their system, mixing it with his own. He exposed Casemiro to so much pressure with his 4141, ending his international career and damaging his reputation, as United were slaughtered week to week, with no change in sight. He didn't know how to press, didn't know how to keep the team compact, didn't know how to create build up opportunities, and more than any other flaw, didn't know how to create opportunities for our striker.

Those bolded bits are quite interesting. Why would you come to that conclusion?

 

[romufc]

Those bolded bits are quite interesting. Why would you come to that conclusion?

It is interesting right? Claiming a manager cant communicate or get his tactics across?

When alot of players he has coached before and managed to communicate with and get his tactics across then?

Antony, Licha, Eriksen, De Ligt, Mazroui have all worked with him but some will say he could communicate to them in Ajax but at United he was not allowed to speak to them in the language they spoke with each other in Netherlands.

 

[Borys]

It is interesting right? Claiming a manager cant communicate or get his tactics across?

When alot of players he has coached before and managed to communicate with and get his tactics across then?

Antony, Licha, Eriksen, De Ligt, Mazroui have all worked with him but some will say he could communicate to them in Ajax but at United he was not allowed to speak to them in the language they spoke with each other in Netherlands.

That is exactly my point.

It seems to me people didn't believe ETH lost his mind, or had such stupid tactical ideas, so came up with a theory that it can't be the tactics, there must be a communication problem. I find it hard to believe, one reason why you just provided, second one is how long he was trying to make this work.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

We dont know that.. the options in the summer were Tuchel or Di Zerbi... neither really are exciting.

It was a matter of shall we change for sake of changing or do we change for a manager we believe in.. they chose the latter. I know who I would rather have if given the choice between Amorim, Di Zerbi and Tuchel.

I’m sure we could have pushed for Amorim in the summer, but I think ETH tied himself up in so many knots anyone would have gained more points before he left than he did.

 

[romufc]

That is exactly my point.

It seems to me people didn't believe ETH lost his mind, or had such stupid tactical ideas, so came up with a theory that it can't be the tactics, there must be a communication problem. I find it hard to believe, one reason why you just provided, second one is how long he was trying to make this work.

I know hindsight is a great thing but the one thing I noticed is that his Ajax team struggles with the same things.

Its just that in that league, they didnt face the level of opposition like he did in the PL.

He clearly didnt back himself, threw his ideas out after Brentford then wanted to play a high press but low line, probably confused himself as to the brand he wanted to play.

 

[Pughnichi]

I think he did see his quality - hence why he started him 8 games to start the season.

FALSE

he started the first 2
Was then dropped for Liverpool
Brought back vs Southampton
Dropped again v Barnsley
Brought back v palace
Dropped again for the next 2

50% right

 

[stevoc]

Speaking of Dutch managers, Arnie Slot seems to be a better communicator than ETH. Even his command of the English language is heaps better. I wonder if most of ETH’s failures were because he struggled to actually convey his ideas to the team (the language barrier being one of the challenges) and ended up confusing and demotivating them even more?

I struggle to believe that ETH as a professional manager with CL experience could be that tactically clueless. The worst manager alongside Moyes despite winning 2 trophies.

His grasp of English was decent when he started but it didn't seem to improve. And if that was something that was holding him back then there's really no excuses. He was living and working in England for 2+ years, he should have hired a coach and been doing daily lessons to improve his English.

 

[stevoc]

Struggle to agree with people ‘going early’ on Slot compared to Ten Hag given we went from 7th to 3rd plus a trophy in his first season. It only started to fall apart a year or so later.

Slot has done a near perfect job thus far but a lot can change as we saw with our own bald Dutchman.

We finished 6th and the seasons before that 2nd and 3rd. So he wasn't exactly performing miracles that season, it was a good season though.

 

[Jam]

Speaking of Dutch managers, Arnie Slot seems to be a better communicator than ETH. Even his command of the English language is heaps better. I wonder if most of ETH’s failures were because he struggled to actually convey his ideas to the team (the language barrier being one of the challenges) and ended up confusing and demotivating them even more?

I struggle to believe that ETH as a professional manager with CL experience could be that tactically clueless. The worst manager alongside Moyes despite winning 2 trophies.

Oh shit. You’ve cracked it.

He was talking to McLaren in Dutch -> McLaren then tried to translate it to the team in English, with a Dutch accent for authenticity, and butchered the entire thing.

Hire him back with an interpreter and we’ll be playing total football in days!

 

[DRJosh]

Oh shit. You’ve cracked it.

He was talking to McLaren in Dutch -> McLaren then tried to translate it to the team in English, with a Dutch accent for authenticity, and butchered the entire thing.

Hire him back with an interpreter and we’ll be playing total football in days!

I’m not saying it was the sole reason. But for a typically poor and uninspiring communicator like ETH, language adds an additional barrier.

 

[Jam]

I’m not saying it was the sole reason. But for a typically poor and uninspiring communicator like ETH, language adds an additional barrier.

I think if it was a legitimate reason it would have been addressed.

Multiple fluent speakers, and access to professional interpreters.

I’m not saying his method of communication might not have been poor but language absolutely should not have been an issue - he was here for multiple years and suspect anything “lost in translation” (rather than ignored, explained poorly, or just bad advice) would have been covered.