Ten Hag sacked | Ruud appointed Interim Manager

[Max_United]

This is nonsense.. whilst he deserved to be sacked. He won 2 cups... you dont do that unless you have a bit about you as a coach.

Its not just he won the Eredivisie that he got the job, you do realise that?

He built 2 different sides, playing different football. So in his first team, he had De Ligt, FdJ, Donny and the like with a false 9 and then his team got ripped apart as he sold most of the players in 2 years... so he had to re-build the team and this time he built it with a Striker in Haller.

Both occasions he done well in the CL too. With the first team, he was not just winning games against Porto and the like, he went away to Juventus, Real Madrid and outplayed them. In the second team he won 6/6 in the CL...

Lets not discredit his previous work. He was crap for us and deserved to be sacked but did really well at Ajax.. they haven't won the league since.

He certainly did well overall, but he also took over quite a talented squad which was already on the rise (the season before he took over they lost the title by only 1 point and made Europa League Final under Bosz).

His rebuilt team still did significantly worse in CL (yes there was this 6/6 but then they lost to Benfica and before that there were 2 seasons where they did not make it out of the group stage and did not advance far in europa league). Plus the league metrics were also gradually dropping, although they were still winning the league (in his last season they just barely won it by 1 or 2 points I think).

I would also argue that the last time Ajax has a squad with comparable/better level of talent than EtHs 2018-2019 squad was in early 00s under Koeman. They made CL quarterfinals then and were seconds away from making the semis and knocking out the eventual winners (AC Milan).

So whether he is better than the likes of Bosz/Koeman (who did not succeed outside of the Netherlands) remains to be seen imo. My hunch is no as his communication/language problems will be an issue everywhere outside his home country, and it does not seem that he has enough self-reflection to learn from his time at united. But would be very curious to see how he would do, for instance, at a German club competing for CL spots (think it is the realistic level of offer he would get outside the Netherlands now).

 

[GoodTimes]

In just 6 games as Wales manager, Craig Bellamy has already transformed them into a team with a real identity. They're creative with their passing, like to dominate the ball and press like hell without it. Now whether this will last or not is anyone's guess, but to see results this quickly is impressive.

Yet we're supposed to believe this was an unrealistic exception of Ten Hag with 2 years and £600 million plus spent?

 

[adkb]

Last season was on ETH, there's no two ways about it. His entire set-up was utterly ridiculous and was a 100% guaranteed failure. It was literally one of the worst managerial performances over an entire season that you or I will ever see. The shape of the team was ridiculous, his in-game management was atrocious (how many times did we see opposition managers make changes that changed the tempo of the match, while ETH either did nothing or just made like-for-like changes), and he threw away an entire season while doing the same thing time after time while seemingly expecting a different result. It's not an exaggeration to say it would have been difficult to do a worse job if he were actively trying to get himself fired.

Inflict such incompetence (there's no other word for it) on all our players for 12 months, and then wonder why they all look bereft of confidence and belief the following season even though ETH finally tweaked the system to something that wasn't quite so insane.

We can revisit this post in 2 years.

 

[adkb]

Last season was on ETH, there's no two ways about it. His entire set-up was utterly ridiculous and was a 100% guaranteed failure. It was literally one of the worst managerial performances over an entire season that you or I will ever see. The shape of the team was ridiculous, his in-game management was atrocious (how many times did we see opposition managers make changes that changed the tempo of the match, while ETH either did nothing or just made like-for-like changes), and he threw away an entire season while doing the same thing time after time while seemingly expecting a different result. It's not an exaggeration to say it would have been difficult to do a worse job if he were actively trying to get himself fired.

Inflict such incompetence (there's no other word for it) on all our players for 12 months, and then wonder why they all look bereft of confidence and belief the following season even though ETH finally tweaked the system to something that wasn't quite so insane.

Also I am not disagreeing with you.

But ETH is where he was because of a lot of reasons. You may be right about the last season, but that is linked to the previous season. Players technical abilities, players attitudes, management involvement, transfer dealings etc. It was an absolute nightmare. Here is hoping our new boy does not suffer the same fate.

 

[MadDogg]

I agree with the post you quoted.

I'll give you my reason. The players and fans.

The cycle.

New manager comes in, everyone is excited, fans and players alike, the fans know it'll take time and say they will give it.

The players all of a sudden find there football ability, Rashford starts scoring for fun again. New players are signed and they start well.

First full season, we finish top 4 and/or win a trophy everyone is happy.

We sign a few more players

2nd season, we've an average start, Rashford has only score 1 in 10. The football isn't as good and some of the signings that done well last season aren't performing to the same level. By Halloween the first murmers by some quarters of our support start questioning is this manager good enough. By March we still haven't had a meaningful patch of good form, Rashford is up to 4 goals in the league. We are now approaching half the fan base losing there patience with the manager.

End of the season, we finish 5-8 and possibly a trophy, a. Sizable amount of fans want the manager out


3rd season, more players signed, the season starts poorly, the manager is sacked before the lights on the tree are turned on.

This sort of situation happened to Jose, Ole and ETH.

Each time the players absolved of blame.

The fans promise to back the manager, but as soon as things look bad they want the manager out and put big pressure on. The next manager comes in and after the initial bounce we get the same results in a never ending cycle.

The players though, get away Scott free again.

The mentality around this club is all sorts of wrong and I hope this time the manager (or headcoach) gets time and patience needed to change things even if it means going through another rough season or two to do it.

We can't undo 11 years of bad stewardship/mentality in 1 or 2 seasons.

The players absolved of blame? The players get away Scott free again? Seriously?

The players have got huge blame and criticism, far more than the managers in both the media and the fanbase. We've sold and replaced players many times over. Each manager has been allowed to rebuild the squad significantly, to the point that there's only a handful of players that have played under more than two managers (and at least half of them are probably in their last season now). ETH had something like two thirds of the squad as his own players by the end.

Meanwhile, we change managers less often than the likes of Real, Barca, Bayern and PSG, despite them all having far more success than we do.

Jose is an incredibly toxic manager that falls out with every team he's been at after a few seasons and causes huge problems. That's not unique to his time with us. That's half of the reason he will never work at a top club again. The other half is that he was already on the downward slide when he got here, something that has continued as he's had to drop to a lower tier team at every stage and he's now in Turkey. Ole has never once shown that he's good enough to manage a top club, and once he tried to move to a more front-foot style it all fell apart. ETH was the first time since Fergie that we hired the right profile of manager, but hiring the upcoming manager that has it all to prove is always a risk. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Other top clubs do it all the time, and when it doesn't work they quickly sack them and try again.

Are the players blameless? Hell no. But pretending that it was their fault and that the managers are hard done by is ridiculous and something that only Man Utd fans seem to do. Indeed, a strong argument could be had that hanging on to failing managers too long is what's done the most damage. If we'd sacked Jose, Ole or ETH a bit earlier and replaced them with the next guy, that next manager then has an easier job. Instead we wait too long, let the previous managers limitations and incompetence drag us down which destroys the belief and confidence in the squad and breeds negativity in the players, fans and media. Each new manager then has to come into a broken team. The same would happen anywhere if a club leaves a manager who isn't good enough in place for too long. Other clubs simply don't wait that long.

 

[romufc]

I agree with the post you quoted.

I'll give you my reason. The players and fans.

The cycle.

New manager comes in, everyone is excited, fans and players alike, the fans know it'll take time and say they will give it.

The players all of a sudden find there football ability, Rashford starts scoring for fun again. New players are signed and they start well.

First full season, we finish top 4 and/or win a trophy everyone is happy.

We sign a few more players

2nd season, we've an average start, Rashford has only score 1 in 10. The football isn't as good and some of the signings that done well last season aren't performing to the same level. By Halloween the first murmers by some quarters of our support start questioning is this manager good enough. By March we still haven't had a meaningful patch of good form, Rashford is up to 4 goals in the league. We are now approaching half the fan base losing there patience with the manager.

End of the season, we finish 5-8 and possibly a trophy, a. Sizable amount of fans want the manager out


3rd season, more players signed, the season starts poorly, the manager is sacked before the lights on the tree are turned on.

This sort of situation happened to Jose, Ole and ETH.

Each time the players absolved of blame.

The fans promise to back the manager, but as soon as things look bad they want the manager out and put big pressure on. The next manager comes in and after the initial bounce we get the same results in a never ending cycle.

The players though, get away Scott free again.

The mentality around this club is all sorts of wrong and I hope this time the manager (or headcoach) gets time and patience needed to change things even if it means going through another rough season or two to do it.

We can't undo 11 years of bad stewardship/mentality in 1 or 2 seasons.

I get the cycle you are talking about but alot of what you have said is untrue.

1. We have now got a footballing structure in place and Amorim is not a manager, he is head coach.

2. You cant have a go at fans for being excited with a new dawn.. its like saying, we shouldn't celebrate a goal to get us 1-0 because incase we dont win the game?

3. Players are not absorbed of anything... how many of the players Jose/Ole had are still here? Not many, so clearly they were held accountable.

4. Patience on a manager? Fans have backed every manager.. Jose was given 2.5 years, Ole and Ten Hag the same. You cant expect fans to sit there being patient when you see football each of those managers served in their last 6 months? Some would say they got too much patience.

5. This notion that it would take more than 2 years to undo the past is rubbish. We have been changing this and it can 100% within a year.

When Amorim went to Sporting, the club was a mess, fans were protesting, players wanted to rip their contracts, they hadn't won the league in 19 years and within 1 season they won the league.

So, this notion that a manager needs time is false. A top top coach / manager improves players and we should see this in within 3 months of him taking over. Not the finished article but his principles.

 

[DJ_21]

I get the cycle you are talking about but alot of what you have said is untrue.

1. We have now got a footballing structure in place and Amorim is not a manager, he is head coach.

2. You cant have a go at fans for being excited with a new dawn.. its like saying, we shouldn't celebrate a goal to get us 1-0 because incase we dont win the game?

3. Players are not absorbed of anything... how many of the players Jose/Ole had are still here? Not many, so clearly they were held accountable.

4. Patience on a manager? Fans have backed every manager.. Jose was given 2.5 years, Ole and Ten Hag the same. You cant expect fans to sit there being patient when you see football each of those managers served in their last 6 months? Some would say they got too much patience.

5. This notion that it would take more than 2 years to undo the past is rubbish. We have been changing this and it can 100% within a year.

When Amorim went to Sporting, the club was a mess, fans were protesting, players wanted to rip their contracts, they hadn't won the league in 19 years and within 1 season they won the league.

So, this notion that a manager needs time is false. A top top coach / manager improves players and we should see this in within 3 months of him taking over. Not the finished article but his principles.

Spot on. Couldn’t agree more

 

[JPRouve]

The players absolved of blame? The players get away Scott free again? Seriously?

The players have got huge blame and criticism, far more than the managers in both the media and the fanbase. We've sold and replaced players many times over. Each manager has been allowed to rebuild the squad significantly, to the point that there's only a handful of players that have played under more than two managers (and at least half of them are probably in their last season now). ETH had something like two thirds of the squad as his own players by the end.

Meanwhile, we change managers less often than the likes of Real, Barca, Bayern and PSG, despite them all having far more success than we do.

Jose is an incredibly toxic manager that falls out with every team he's been at after a few seasons and causes huge problems. That's not unique to his time with us. That's half of the reason he will never work at a top club again. The other half is that he was already on the downward slide when he got here, something that has continued as he's had to drop to a lower tier team at every stage and he's now in Turkey. Ole has never once shown that he's good enough to manage a top club, and once he tried to move to a more front-foot style it all fell apart. ETH was the first time since Fergie that we hired the right profile of manager, but hiring the upcoming manager that has it all to prove is always a risk. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Other top clubs do it all the time, and when it doesn't work they quickly sack them and try again.

Are the players blameless? Hell no. But pretending that it was their fault and that the managers are hard done by is ridiculous and something that only Man Utd fans seem to do. Indeed, a strong argument could be had that hanging on to failing managers too long is what's done the most damage. If we'd sacked Jose, Ole or ETH a bit earlier and replaced them with the next guy, that next manager then has an easier job. Instead we wait too long, let the previous managers limitations and incompetence drag us down which destroys the belief and confidence in the squad and breeds negativity in the players, fans and media. Each new manager then has to come into a broken team. The same would happen anywhere if a club leaves a manager who isn't good enough in place for too long. Other clubs simply don't wait that long.

I fully agree. If anything squad turnover from one manager to the other is one of the issue because it seems that our managers aren't expected to work with what they have, their first and second summers are always massive spendings and huge amount of departures with little care for worth. There is no incentive to actually coach the team and fined solutions to problems because the club hands blank checks.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

Emery only did "great" in cups for Sevilla. He was very average everywhere else and also had one of the worst record against La Liga top 3 or 4 teams, iirc he went more than a decade without a win.

We won the Europa League at Villarreal.

 

[JPRouve]

We won the Europa League at Villarreal.

I know and he wasn't great at Villarreal either. He has a very good Europa League record but a very average and often underwhelming league and CL record.

 

[Gordon S]

We can revisit this post in 2 years.

Sorry, but why should this post be revisited in two years?
Erik ten hag having a really poor season will still be true regardless right?

 

[Cheimoon]

In just 6 games as Wales manager, Craig Bellamy has already transformed them into a team with a real identity. They're creative with their passing, like to dominate the ball and press like hell without it. Now whether this will last or not is anyone's guess, but to see results this quickly is impressive.

Yet we're supposed to believe this was an unrealistic exception of Ten Hag with 2 years and £600 million plus spent?

Who actually says that now?

 

[Rista]

Nothing he’s done suggests he’s a fantastic coach…(I didn’t say that but, whatever) how do you think he secured the man united gig?

The post I responded to did. He secured the gig by doing a promising job with Ajax.

Right, just quick digging.. lets not do all this revisionism because even you thought he was a good manager.

Imagine changing opinion based on actual evidence rather than sticking with what he did as a promising manager half a decade ago at a lower level. How many players from that period looked extremely promising and turned out to be complete duds? Hiring Ten Hag wasn't the wrong decision, sticking with him was. He did a terrible job with us, it's irrelevant if he's a "good coach".

 

[romufc]

The post I responded to did. He secured the gig by doing a promising job with Ajax.


Imagine changing opinion based on actual evidence rather than sticking with what he did as a promising manager half a decade ago at a lower level. How many players from that period looked extremely promising and turned out to be complete duds? Hiring Ten Hag wasn't the wrong decision, sticking with him was. He did a terrible job with us, it's irrelevant if he's a "good coach".

We clearly haven't stuck with him... he is sacked after 2 and a bit seasons.

Unless you think we should sack managers after 1 season?

 

[Wibble]

I think this thread has run its course. Given that ETH has gone as has the interim replacement.