I am not happy with his passing though, plus he tends to hide a lot during the game, which also contribute to our lack of build up play.
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I don't merely think. I KNOW he and Fred are good enough. Same way I know they are not remotely the problem.
A team can't keep insisting on having just 2 people in center midfield. With the defence leaving
wide space behind them and the attack leaving wide space ahead of them. Then you who watches that blames the 2 repeatedly for failing to control allthose acres of space against 3 to 4 opponents with in it. Supposedly because they lack the technical and passing skill. Rather than the obvious fact they are simply overwhelmingly outnumbered.
if you seriously imagine prime scholes and keane would fair better in the sane circumstance. It's questionable if you even know what standards are in the first place.
Because we won't get top 4 because the standards of our team tactics are currently laughable. It has zero to do with technical ability.
Rangnick is in love with him it seems. Tipping him to become the team captain at some point in his career. He has the passion, but for me he lacks the skill to be a regular starter. I don’t mind him as a rotation player, but a starter is too much for him
Exactly. Previously I thought it was just tactical naivety of team ole. Or players just reveling and doing their own thing
Now the same thing is occuring under team Rangnick. In the Wolves game it was most blatant. The 2 ahead of mctominay and Fred contributed nothing off the ball and didn't even bother to add numbers to center midfield.
Our two deepest were forced to deal with advancing fullbacks, in side out wingers and a 10 in their zone. Yet you see people openly blaming them for our lack of control in that area. Out numbered 5-2
Well enjoy being back in the Europa league next season and not ever winning the premier league or champions league again then. Unlike you I dont accept that.
Indeed.. Bring him in when you are having a very slow game where there seems little passion and energy in the game. In such a scenario players like him and cavani are the likes who can bring new fire in a game.. Ideally you dont need it obviously, cause it's a sign of weakness if you need this type of substitutions, but I can see his value in such a scenario..
But come one... He lacks quality in almost every aspect of the game to be a starter, let alone a f*cking future captain...
Scholes and Keane would do much better in the double pivot or sitting 2 tactically vulnerable or not
McTominay and Fred lack the technical ability required for a title winning side, I think we've seen them lose possession in minimal pressure scenarios enough times to realise that. When you say you know McFred is good enough, good enough for what? Winning titles?Let's compare midfields from one of the best sides ever and the current city team:
Xavi Iniesta
Busquets
De Bruyne Silva
Rodri
McTominay Fred
New DM
Can you see the issue we're still having even though there's a third midfielder backing them up? They aren't good enough technically to be an no.8 for a title winning team.
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Actually. Your posts are proof you have actually accepted that which you claim to deny. Because you are blissfully unaware as to why we lack midfield control in games in the first place.
All too willing for us to jump on a carousel of constantly signing midfield upgrades without actually addressing why they cant function in our set up.
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Prime Scholes and Keane also needed the help of Giggs, Beckham and one of the strikers to control midfield constantly.Scholes and Keane would do much better in the double pivot or sitting 2 tactically vulnerable or not
Scholes himself highlighted this very tactical flaw of ours after we faced Liverpool. Insisting that he himself would have struggled in such an insane set up. But you think you know what he could do better than him
Yes. Put them in the right set up we will win things with them, Of that I have no doubt. These are the same things people said about Liverpool with Henderson in their midfield. Look at them now.
Heck freaking Drinkwater won a league title in a perfect tactical set up. Yet we are supposed to believe Fred and Mctominay couldn't in a right set up.....
That's the problem with have agendas. You come up with lame arguments like the one above and think you are making valid points.
At what point has ANYONE suggested using Fred and MCtominay as two 10s or 2 attacking 8? Let alone both of the starting ahead of a DM with the kind of fullbacks we currently have at the club? Be serious please...
People actually think McTominay is good enough for us?
Jesus wept.
Jesus wept.
Prime Scholes and Keane also needed the help of Giggs, Beckham and one of the strikers to control midfield constantly.
Scholes himself highlighted this very tactical flaw of ours after we faced Liverpool. Insisting that he himself would have struggled in such an insane set up. But you think you know what he could do better than him
I never said Scholes wouldn't struggle in a 4-2-4 formation vs Pep's Liverpool, I'm saying even with the tactical vulnerabilities Scholes and Keane would've still played much better than Fred and McTominay in place of them in the double pivot for the last 2 seasons, you made the point that they wouldn't..
You have no doubt we'll win things with McFred in the right set up vs the current level of the league? What would that set up look like? Fred and McTominay have never been on par with Henderson in terms of passing ability, but obviously it helps having the likes of Salah, Mane, Van Dijk, Alexander Arnold and Robertson all in world class form around you, utd are nowhere near that sort of luxury. The context of Drinkwater winning the league with Leicester, he wouldn't have won anything against the level of competition utd face at the moment. If the league quality drops back down to 15-16 levels then yeah I suppose McTominay and Fred stand a chance, but that's irrelevant to me.
Again, what would this set up look like then? Given that they're both no.8s.
Van de Beek Fred
McTominay?
It's an improvement but Mctominay is out of position and we'll still have the same issues against tough opposition.McTominay?
.
I most certainly did not. I was very obviously referring to the double pivot being left all on their lonesome to control center midfield like has been the case all this season. Which is the topic of discussion at hand. You can't seriously imagine anyone would compare Scholes and Keane as a double pivot to a mctominay and fred in general terms.....
Absolutely.
A set up that consistently plays them in their best positions, clearly. Just like happened with a Drinkwater
First, people used to say the same things about Henderson that they currently do about Fred and Mctominay. ( Many still can't admit he is good enough). Yet once he was put in the right set up that maximized his strengths the results were all clear to see
Second, our attacking talent pool, is deeper than what Liverpool possess. Our problem has always been the set up behind them. First a dead right wing, then incompatible center halfs, to not having a natural dm any longer. Plus all this season the wrong tactical set up. I do care how good your talent pool is frankly. Set up wrong tactically and you will never perform well enough to do anything consistently
This is noting but pure speculation based on your biases against the players. Not anything remotely concrete. Because in actual reality there is little to no difference in quality between Henderson, Fred and Mctominay. You just imagine there is because you have seen Henderson winning things in Liverpoo''s impeccable set up, that plays to all his strengths. Liverpool murdered the league with a Henderson playing full time week in week out
Put him in ours and you'd despise him just as much as you despise those two
You seem to be under this strange compulsion to start them together and to start them out of position.
Its pretty obvious the best set ups would be:
1. start one of them alongside a natural 6. with a 10 ahead of them
2. start one of them as a combative 8. alongside a creative 8 and a natural 6 behind them
3. Start one of them as one of two combative deep midfielders. With 2 hard working 10s ahead of them in 4-2-2-2.
They'd comfortably thrive in any of the mentioned setups because their strengths as players would be maximised
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Your just throwing things out there and trying to make it stick. At least I brought up evidence on why Scott McTominay isn't good enough for Manchester United. Others in this thread have also given evidence. Yeah its not only Scott McTominay and Fred who are a problem but they are still part of the problem.
Its a crime that he got MotM. A goal doesn't make you man of the match.
How many people here think McTom can get a spot in teams like Chelsea, City, Liverpool, etc. He has nothing special in his repertoire, decent squad player at best, would play him in cup games against lower league/non-league sides. It's astounding that some people here think he's good enough to be part of a starting 11 competing for the PL title...
If McT was anywhere near the quality of Henderson (he's not) he would be first choice CM for Scotland. As it is Henderson, who I rate a lot, is captain of Liverpool and England. While McT is 3rd or 4th choice for Scotland as CM and gets played in defence. Despite apparently being a good enough #8 for a title winning team. The guys a trier but he's nowhere near the standard that Utd need.
Fernandes was playing a free no.10/CF role detached from the double pivot last season too, the tactical set up last season was pretty much the same as the start of this season so your outnumbered point should relate to then as well surely?
This is noting but pure speculation based on your biases for the players. Not anything remotely concrete. Because in actual reality there is a difference in technical quality between Henderson and McFred. Oh wait, I've just contradicted myself.
So the original point is about Fred and McTominay having the technical ability to win titles starting for utd, and their sole problem being that they're just getting outnumbered in midfield, no problems with ability whatsoever. However both of them can't playing in the same midfield at the same time in an ideal set up because they're technically limited players and have too many flaws as a pair?
Might not be United class, but I for one would rather see him playing given 100% every week, than watching Tony M, Rashford and Pogba swanning about as if the club owes them a living…
All three you've mentioned have produced more for united on the pitch than McTominay has
Like what? all 3 get paid nearly 600k between them 2 of the players don’t want to stay at United, and 1 looks he has lost his love to play football for his boyhood club.
As I said I would rather see someone that knows how lucky he is to play for United over 3 that couldn’t care less.
Love this argument. You know what? We should give lifetime contracts to 11 random ticket holders and let them play because fans would 100% give their all.
How much have the standards dropped at this club that "someone feeling lucky to play for United" is all we need? McTominay should be a bench player at a top club at best. Seeing him disappear every game as soon as the opponent's team raise the pace is depressing. He's just not good enough.
I will give 100% on the pitch, would you support the idea that I start games for Utd?
I think mct is perfectly fine as a back up B2B player, definitely not a first 11 player but I'd keep him as a backup/squad player no problem.
Like the fact they've made more appearances and have shown more quality on the field than McTominay. I don't even have to go into details.
However you'd be disingenuous to hold the opinion that McTominay has had a better individual career than those three at United by any metric except maybe in your eyes 'passion' and that 'gets united' crap that gets thrown around needlessly
You are 100% correct, how our standards have dropped!! we have fans slating a lad that gives his all on the park, for 3 that as far as I can see have no hunger to be at United…
Yes Scott is no more than a bench player but I take my hat of to him that he is there to be shot at, Keane Would class SM the same as he did Darren Fletcher, what do you think he thinks of Pogba, Rashford and Tony M?
Needlessly like from the King??
https://www.bigissue.com/news/eric-cantona-alex-ferguson-gives-passion-fire/
I do actually agree that all 3 players are and will always be better players than Scott but its just a shame that they don’t seem to have the same commitment to United.
Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard don’t you think?
Not always. At this level or the level we're aiming to get back to you need more than just hard work. That's why Dan James was sold.
We've had a multitude of triers at this club in the past better than McTominay who were shown the door. Not faulting him for his efforts, they're simply not good enough in my opinion.
Why do I have this feeling that Mctominay is a natural striker who would have flourished in that position if well nurtured
Alan Smith vibes?
A first class nonsense argument that keeps being regurgitated on here. Scotland has an abundance of good CM's and few quality defenders. That is why a Mctominay who is also a competent center half plays else where.
Same reason Tierney plays in center defence because he is a solid defender yet the team also has Robertson, another top class left back.
As per the warped logic on here Scotland should drop its midfielders and play rubbish center defenders just to have mctominay in his best position. Plus Tierney because he cant play left back shouldn't make the team
Correct. It’s a nonsense argument. McTominay has been good generally at CB for Scotland as well.
Wish he’d been available today.
McT was missed today
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Felt we missed him as a sub in the second half.
We were dominant in the first - but Matic's yellow card and Fred's misplaced passes yesterday eventually took its toll in to the second half.
Either Mctominay or VDB should have come on to a midfield 3.
We were dominant in the first - but Matic's yellow card and Fred's misplaced passes yesterday eventually took its toll in to the second half.
Either Mctominay or VDB should have come on to a midfield 3.
He wasn’t though, we lose the midfield battle pretty much every week and he plays in the majority of those games.
You knew that comment was coming.
I've come to the conclusion that neither should start for us...Fred nor Mctominay. We need 2 new midfielders. I really believed Rangnick would improve Fred
We had one of our best halfs without him. Could have been a good sub to bring on for Matic in the last 20 minutes but the overall performance was good enough that you cant say we missed him.
I think we missed him for sure. If he was available, he would have come on in the second half for Matic and would have brought some energy to the team. That should be his role, coming on when we need to secure the results to replace tired legs. The definition of a squad player
Bruno playing deeper helped, it was much more of a 3, and with Elanga giving vastly more workrate than Sanhco/Rashford there was more of a structure to the set up. Cavani, Matic and Elanga started to tire, Fred and Bruno had more space to cover, that structure faded.
The biggest issue I have with him is how he doesn't show for the ball and seems to just hide behind an opposition taking himself out as an option
It's frustrating cos there are times when he gets the ball and does so well with it, whether it's running or keeping the opposition away from it and then spreading the ball out side
It's frustrating cos there are times when he gets the ball and does so well with it, whether it's running or keeping the opposition away from it and then spreading the ball out side
Ince loves RR’s favourite boy.
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