SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Vitro]

Is anyone else kinda scared how easily freedoms were taken away from people? Of course it’s the right thing to beat this virus now, but it gives me an uneasy feeling how very fragile our ‘freedoms’ really are.

The type of individual freedom a lot of people think they have is an illusion and always has been. Sure, you have a range of things you're allowed to do but if you choose to live within a society then these liberties are tightly constrained so society is functional and others around you do not suffer as a consequence. People may think that they choose willingly to follow these constraints but each one of us has been moulded by the society we live in to follow, and accept these rules. People are not truly independent but rely on millions of people and thousand of systems all around them for their lives and society to continue. When something threatens those systems and therefore our way of life then (very) minor alterations have to be made, which is what is happening now. People are mostly upset because things have changed or an illusion has been shattered, not because they are no longer "free". For autonomy you gotta do a cabin in a woods kind of thing.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Not at all, people have largely done whatever they have wanted. Everything has been voluntary for the most part.

In the UK people are still going for picnics and cycling in groups and whatever else they fancy. In America people are going out to protest in large groups about the fact they’re not allowed to congregate in large groups and they’re getting no push back from the law.

People still have their liberties and ultimately it’s people using their liberties, deciding to follow expert advice and stay at home.

You say voluntarily, which it technically is. But the large proportion of public is of course taking the advice not to do your normal ‘freedoms’. Going out once a day only, not seeing friends, but seeing family, not visiting other places. That is unquestionably a loss of freedom and regardless of the good reasons for it is scary to me how easily it has been lost

 

[Dave_MUFC]

Is anyone else kinda scared how easily freedoms were taken away from people? Of course it’s the right thing to beat this virus now, but it gives me an uneasy feeling how very fragile our ‘freedoms’ really are.

Not at all. Like with a lot of things, people in the UK think they're being massively controlled, when the reality is that it's nowhere near as strong as the rest of Europe. From what I've heard from friends in Italy and Spain, people have only just been allowed to start going out to have some exercise, and kids have just been allowed to go out with their parents for a walk. Also having to fill out forms and being constantly requested by authorities to show documents and proof you are heading somewhere serious etc.

Whereas in the UK, we can stay out all day if we really want to. Seen plenty of police around when I've been walking to the shop etc. and never been questioned about where I'm heading to.

Then these groups of scumbags hanging around with each other have the cheek to speak back to the police when questioned, and make it out like their freedom is being taken away from them?! They can go and do one...

Unfortunately a few people ruin it for the rest of us. If people here could actually listen to advice and be smart about reducing the risk of infecting others, there wouldn't need to be fines handed out etc. But I reckon as soon as the government announce that lockdown will be easing, people are going to take advantage of the situation and we'll end up at square one again. We can't have nice things.

 

[onemanarmy]

Belgian numbers of infections and deaths keep dropping massively. Excellent news.

 

[711]

Is anyone else kinda scared how easily freedoms were taken away from people? Of course it’s the right thing to beat this virus now, but it gives me an uneasy feeling how very fragile our ‘freedoms’ really are.

No. You have hundreds of freedoms taken away already. You're not free to keep all your money, you're taxed, you're not free to drive your car as fast as you like or park it wherever you feel like, and you're not free to libel anyone or punch them in the mouth. We manage these restrictions through democracy, it's the best way we've come up with so far.

 

[blue blue]

Is anyone else kinda scared how easily freedoms were taken away from people? Of course it’s the right thing to beat this virus now, but it gives me an uneasy feeling how very fragile our ‘freedoms’ really are.

I agree with the others that it is encouraging to see that it is the people who are prepared to forego their freedoms for the greater good. It has brought us together as a people.

If anything it has made me realise how much I appreciate our freedoms and that our system of government isn't authoritarian like China.

 

[golden_blunder]

Is anyone else kinda scared how easily freedoms were taken away from people? Of course it’s the right thing to beat this virus now, but it gives me an uneasy feeling how very fragile our ‘freedoms’ really are.

Short answer: no

 

[Rafaeldagold]

I agree with the others that it is encouraging to see that it is the people who are prepared to forego their freedoms for the greater good. It has brought us together as a people.

If anything it has made me realise how much I appreciate our freedoms and that our system of government isn't authoritarian like China.

I do agree it’s encouraging seeing people want to do something for the greater good.

I also will value a lot more what freedoms we do have post this as they aren’t always guaranteed to be there as this pandemic proves

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Short answer: no

Wow ok. So you don’t look at this whole situation and go ‘ huh- my freedoms weren’t as absolute as I thought’ ok fair enough

 

[711]

Wow ok. So you don’t look at this whole situation and go ‘ huh- my freedoms weren’t as absolute as I thought’ ok fair enough

Where did you have absolute freedoms, what situations?

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Where did you have absolute freedoms, what situations?

Not absolute but to:

Go out more than once a day
See friends
See family
Visit other places and not just your own city
Travel on holiday

Are you seriously telling me you don’t feel a lack of freedoms right now? Did you ever leave the house before this?

 

[Pexbo]

Not absolute but to:

Go out more than once a day
See friends
See family
Visit other places and not just your own city
Travel on holiday

Are you seriously telling me you don’t feel a lack of freedoms right now? Did you ever leave the house before this?

I don't view it as an authority stopping me from doing these things. I view it as a potentially lethal and hugely contagious virus temporarily stopping me from doing those things.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

I don't view it as an authority stopping me from doing these things. I view it as a potentially lethal and hugely contagious virus temporarily stopping me from doing those things.

I don’t think you get my point. Of course it’s the right thing to do for this situation & everyone knows that.

It’s the question itself of how easy regardless of the very good reasons for it that those freedoms have gone. And it is an authority telling you to do that- the government with police being able to enforce it.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Stockholm Region press conference from this morning.

Positive Patient Numbers in Stockholm
New statistics from Stockholm Hospitals show that we are seeing the start of a decline. Week 15 the total deaths were 181, for week 16 the number dropped to 135 and for week 17 the total was down to 107.

Even when it comes covid-19- patients that require hospital care, the curve is going in the right direction. At the peak, the total patients with Coronavirus was over 1100, but now the number is down to 955.

The same when it comes to ICU, where the curve has been flat under a long period and is now heading downwards. At it’s highest the total was up at 230 patients but now the figure has dropped to 193.


Lots and lots of warnings now at the end of the press conference that this is not over by a long shot, this will be months and months doing what we have been doing since mid-March to keep the curve down and reduce it even more.

 

[711]

Not absolute but to:

Go out more than once a day
See friends
See family
Visit other places and not just your own city
Travel on holiday

Are you seriously telling me you don’t feel a lack of freedoms right now? Did you ever leave the house before this?

Ah right. I read you as thinking you could do anything you wanted beforehand, which would have been silly, sorry about that. The answer is that you were never completely free in the first place, there were thousands of restrictions on what you could do, now those restrictions have been increased, necessarily. If you don't like that you can vote for a party that will promise not to restrict you in any way. I won't be joining you though.

 

[Smores]

Not absolute but to:

Go out more than once a day
See friends
See family
Visit other places and not just your own city
Travel on holiday

Are you seriously telling me you don’t feel a lack of freedoms right now? Did you ever leave the house before this?

Restrictions which are willed by the public aren't a loss of freedom they're an expression of it. We choose to restrict ourselves in many ways as a society and know that if we ever change our mind that as a public those restrictions can be changed.

 

[FireballXL5]

Not absolute but to:

Go out more than once a day
See friends
See family
Visit other places and not just your own city
Travel on holiday

Are you seriously telling me you don’t feel a lack of freedoms right now? Did you ever leave the house before this?

And can you not see that those restrictions are in place to hopefully stop you catching and spreading a rampant deadly virus?

 

[Sky1981]

I do agree it’s encouraging seeing people want to do something for the greater good.

I also will value a lot more what freedoms we do have post this as they aren’t always guaranteed to be there as this pandemic proves

I dont want to live in absolute freedom. It's anarchy.

I love for the police to protect me from stupid people. I love the constitution to keep everyone in check.

I want the police to tell you to stay at home. Because if it's up to me i dont have the authority to do that.

I want the government (not exactly wanted) to tax youse, because if tax is a liberty I'd be left with no roads outside my house because nobody would want to pay for it.

I want road safety, because i drive responsibly. Having someone making sure everyone else does is good for me.

And no... i dont want to hear your ultimate freedom of speech. I dont need that. Thank you. I dont need to hear neo nazi, i dont need to hear antifa, i dont need people to protest infront of my lawn in the name of freedom of speech.

So no. Thank you. It's enough that i got my human rights and free from persecution. For the little small things I'd love some non freedom choice.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Ah right. I read you as thinking you could do anything you wanted beforehand, which would have been silly, sorry about that. The answer is that you were never completely free in the first place, there were thousands of restrictions on what you could do, now those restrictions have been increased, necessarily. If you don't like that you can vote for a party that will promise not to restrict you in any way. I won't be joining you though.

Yep I think it’s dawning on me we were never quite as free as we thought we were. Of course there had to be a balance, everyone couldn’t just do what they feel like as there would be anarchy. Just it’s quite sobering realising that freedom really was pretty fragile all along

 

[Buster15]

I hope you and your wife are OK. It seems like a shambolic system, quite honestly.

Thank you for your very kind words.
To make matters worse, today on the government website, covid home test kits are 'not available'.

I will be very interested in the test numbers given today, but nothing surprises me any more.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

And can you not see that those restrictions are in place to hopefully stop you catching and spreading a rampant deadly virus?

And can you not see that those restrictions are in place to hopefully stop you catching and spreading a rampant deadly virus?

I don’t think you get my point. Of course it’s the right thing to do for this situation & everyone knows that.

It’s the question itself of how easy regardless of the very good reasons for it that those freedoms have gone.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

I dont want to live in absolute freedom. It's anarchy.

I love for the police to protect me from stupid people. I love the constitution to keep everyone in check.

I want the police to tell you to stay at home. Because if it's up to me i dont have the authority to do that.

I want the government (not exactly wanted) to tax youse, because if tax is a liberty I'd be left with no roads outside my house because nobody would want to pay for it.

I want road safety, because i drive responsibly. Having someone making sure everyone else does is good for me.

And no... i dont want to hear your ultimate freedom of speech. I dont need that. Thank you. I dont need to hear neo nazi, i dont need to hear antifa, i dont need people to protest infront of my lawn in the name of freedom of speech.

So no. Thank you. It's enough that i got my human rights and free from persecution. For the little small things I'd love some non freedom choice.

What on Earth..are you ok. I never said there should be absolute freedom as yes that would be anarchy & yes I agree with public taxes that go to a common good.

Just simply making the point our freedoms were always in a fragile state & I for one will appreciate it more after all of this is over

 

[711]

Yep I think it’s dawning on me we were never quite as free as we thought we were. Of course there had to be a balance, everyone couldn’t just do what they feel like as there would be anarchy. Just it’s quite sobering realising that freedom really was pretty fragile all along

It's frustrating for all of us. I started off bending the exercise guidelines a bit and not being as thorough with handwashing and stuff as I should have been, hopefully it's sunk in now and I'll be a good boy for the duration.

 

[Pexbo]

I don’t think you get my point. Of course it’s the right thing to do for this situation & everyone knows that.

It’s the question itself of how easy regardless of the very good reasons for it that those freedoms have gone. And it is an authority telling you to do that- the government with police being able to enforce it.

I get your point, I just don't think that you get that the only reason that they have been able to impose these restrictions is because the public is willing to comply due to the circumstances. If the government attempted to do this for their own benefit and the public disagreed, it would not work.

The point is that this is government advised but it's down to the public's own will that it's actually happening. Without that public will, the government is powerless.

 

[Maagge]

Stockholm Region press conference from this morning.

Positive Patient Numbers in Stockholm
New statistics from Stockholm Hospitals show that we are seeing the start of a decline. Week 15 the total deaths were 181, for week 16 the number dropped to 135 and for week 17 the total was down to 107.

Even when it comes covid-19- patients that require hospital care, the curve is going in the right direction. At the peak, the total patients with Coronavirus was over 1100, but now the number is down to 955.

The same when it comes to ICU, where the curve has been flat under a long period and is now heading downwards. At it’s highest the total was up at 230 patients but now the figure has dropped to 193.


Lots and lots of warnings now at the end of the press conference that this is not over by a long shot, this will be months and months doing what we have been doing since mid-March to keep the curve down and reduce it even more.

I did some plots yesterday of the countrywide cases and deaths and it seems Sweden passed its peak around the 24th of April in terms of new deaths. It's based on a rolling seven day mean because I got annoyed with the large fluctuations in daily reports. New cases peaked around the same time. Of course you can have local peaks yet to come but on a countrywide basis it's largely driven by the numbers in Stockholm, I'd imagine. That said, there's a long way to go. Two to three weeks if everything stays the same, I'd guess (with the simplest possible estimate).

 

[RobinLFC]

Only 80 deaths in Belgium today, and only 59 new hospital admissions. R0 is down to 0,6 so very good news all around. Today is the first day of our phased exit, so hopefully the numbers continue to go in the right direction and we don't immediately feck it up.

 

[arnie_ni]

I don’t think you get my point. Of course it’s the right thing to do for this situation & everyone knows that.

It’s the question itself of how easy regardless of the very good reasons for it that those freedoms have gone. And it is an authority telling you to do that- the government with police being able to enforce it.

If no one wanted to stay at home there is nothing the government could do. To many people not even force to stop us.

Your over reacting

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I did some plots yesterday of the countrywide cases and deaths and it seems Sweden passed its peak around the 24th of April in terms of new deaths. It's based on a rolling seven day mean because I got annoyed with the large fluctuations in daily reports. New cases peaked around the same time. Of course you can have local peaks yet to come but on a countrywide basis it's largely driven by the numbers in Stockholm, I'd imagine. That said, there's a long way to go. Two to three weeks if everything stays the same, I'd guess (with the simplest possible estimate).

They believe the actual case peak in Stockholm was 9th April and that the total number of confirmed cases is due to more testing, we’ll see on that I guess.
But you’re bang on, Sweden’s numbers are so largely driven by Stockholm Region.
Gothenburg will be next “peak” I’d imagine and then more and more local cases in the more wilderness parts of this country.

 

[sullydnl]

The ease with which our freedoms have been compromised has to be assessed in the context of a pandemic we can all see rampaging through multiple countries.

There's no reason to think those freedoms could be as easily removed in a different, less obviously severe context.

In other words, it wasn't at all easy to remove those freedoms. It took a near-unprecedented crisis event the likes of which we might not see again in our lifetime.

 

[One Night Only]

Does a virus become weaker the longer it's around? Or with each new person it infects does it become full strength again?

 

[JPRouve]

What is your problem? Is it hard to read? Did the chinese authorities go after their own doctors for fun when they tred to warn people? 8 doctors was prosecuted in december. There are Chinese studies that showed there is high propability that the virus originated in the wetmarket. The wetmarket in Wuhan was closed 1.January due to 40 cases coming from there. Is it far-right movement to doubt China now? Like they are so holy and fair to the world? You must be kidding me. Wake up. I don't trust the US, I do not trust Russia, and I do not trust CHINA. I am not basing my thoughts here on just the US report, I have not read it all neither, since most of it is old news.

China got their first cases early december. Local authorities hid symptoms in data system. Doctors warned of disease in december, were arrested. 2. january National TV tells of the 8 doctors punished for rumour spreading. 14.January Chinas health dept. director warns internally that they could be facing a pandemic with human to human transmission. 15.January. Same person now says no human to human transmission. 5-17 January, no new cases! Later there was disclosed there was 3000 cases in this time period. 20. jan Jinping warns chinese, says transfer between humans.

Also of course things are hard to prove, when no one is allowed to investigate. It is like with the downed airplane in Iran and other similar stories. Authoritan governments wants to control the truth so their truth can be told.

But hey, anyone disagreeing with you are propably extremists...

My problem? I asked you a simple question.

A few small corrections, the 8 doctors haven't been prosecuted but reprimanded by Wuhan's police, later the chinese supreme court criticized the police and exonerated the doctors. In the memo the Health director said that there were suggestions that human to human transmission was possible based on the existence of cases not directly linked to Wuhan, the next day they didn't say that human to human transmission didn't exist, they said that "the risk of sustained human to human transmission was low" which again based on how little everyone knew was a reasonable assumption, it was also a way to acknowledge their existence while not making the public lose their minds, remember that it was for the public, you don't go doom and gloom when you are not even sure about what you are dealing with. And there is nothing that puts the origin in the market, it was an early suspicion due to the fact that it was a cluster in Wuhan but many people that had no contact with the market got infected which is by the way how local doctors determined that human to human transmission was a thing.

As I said in this thread clearly China(mainly local authorities) botched things initially but nothing suggests that they knew more about it than the rest of the world, most of what we know suggests that they didn't knew a whole lot and reacted slowly, in the AP summary the chinese CDC is specifically accused of being sluggish and bureaucratic. But from the moment they had a better idea, they did things relatively well outside of not closing their external borders.


PS: The far right part is about Pompeo's comments about the lab, it's a conspiracy that mainly comes from that side of the political spectrum. You can question the chinese response to the health crisis but the conspiracies about it being man made have no substance for the moment.

 

[11101]

Does a virus become weaker the longer it's around? Or with each new person it infects does it become full strength again?

Both. Infecting a new person makes no difference on it's own, but over time viruses undergo small mutations that almost always make them weaker than before. It's rare for it to go the other way.

 

[Maagge]

They believe the actual case peak in Stockholm was 9th April and that the total number of confirmed cases is due to more testing, we’ll see on that I guess.

I'd be willing to believe that. It doesn't really make sense to have the peaks so close together in time. You'd expect some lag between them.

 

[Penna]

There's an interesting move being proposed in Italy in respect of the large number (estimated at 600,000) undocumented/illegal workers in the country. It's being strongly suggested that they will be able to obtain a 6-month temporary residency, with the possibility of having it extended afterwards.

The logic behind it is presumably that if you know who's living in your area, you can monitor them in respect of the current situation - it would also allow them to access healthcare, I'm assuming. Of course, the workers might prefer to remain under the radar, but on the downside if you're not registered you're not entitled to any financial or other help.

 

[golden_blunder]

Wow ok. So you don’t look at this whole situation and go ‘ huh- my freedoms weren’t as absolute as I thought’ ok fair enough

I think that people have too much time on their hands and are overthinking stuff

 

[Dancfc]

Is anyone else kinda scared how easily freedoms were taken away from people? Of course it’s the right thing to beat this virus now, but it gives me an uneasy feeling how very fragile our ‘freedoms’ really are.

It's not so much the restrictions in itself (not initially anyway), it was the right thing as we got caught flat footed and were playing catch up.

However the fact there's people who not only seem up for this (level of lockdown) medium/long term but are also going above and beyond the call of duty really worries me, if we have any dictatorlike personalities in government they will be getting a lot of encouragement watching how this is playing out.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

First German state is reopening restaurants next Monday, others expected to follow soon.

No surprise really. Pressure from the catering industry has been growing and courts are overturning more and more of the government's measures.

 

[Carolina Red]

Not absolute but to:

Go out more than once a day
See friends
See family
Visit other places and not just your own city
Travel on holiday

Are you seriously telling me you don’t feel a lack of freedoms right now? Did you ever leave the house before this?

Those are luxuries, not freedoms. Plenty of instances throughout history where people have been quarantined or subject to curfew.

Even in the US Bill of Rights (using where I’m from) there are limits to the civil rights / liberties listed.

 

[FootballHQ]

London Nightingale going to be closed by looks of it. Have no idea if NEC Midlands one has been used either.

 

[DoomSlayer]

It's not so much the restrictions in itself (not initially anyway), it was the right thing as we got caught flat footed and were playing catch up.

However the fact there's people who not only seem up for this (level of lockdown) medium/long term but are also going above and beyond the call of duty really worries me, if we have any dictatorlike personalities in government they will be getting a lot of encouragement watching how this is playing out.

It's the cycle of human nature. Seek freedom, face lack of security. Seek security, face lack of freedom.

I guess a monumental event like this was bound to happen and shift the view on freedom in the modern civilisation. Which in turn will have a lot more extreme consequences, until people again start appreciating their freedom more than their security.