SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

German figures still make little sense considering how many have been “critical” for weeks now.
Chance Germany is only calling it a Covid-death is Covid-19 is the main cause?

 

[Dancfc]

Shocking post!

You can't possibly be serious!? What do you suggest we do - just ignore the problem and let it run rampant?

Your nieces' schoolwork can't possibly be more important than people's lives.

Taking my post completely out of context. What you don't seem to realise is people not being educated will result in a long term problem of lack of nurses, surgeons etc because the people who would normally have made it didn't get the appropriate education, therefore costing life, or is it only some form of life that's important to you?

Also a long term lock down happens the economy will collapse to the point people won't be able to afford to FEED THEIR KIDS.

If you're actually an advocate of long term lockdown you're may aswellsigning scores of young children's death warrants.

 

[Drifter]

Wayne Rooney says players face a no-win situation in wage debate

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52172196

Is he being a dick or does he have a point.

 

[redshaw]

621 deaths yesterday. Slightly down from the previous day.

Yesterday 708 was announced for UK and today it's 555 for England. Day before yesterday was 684 for UK

Oh you mean not figures but actually yesterday.

 

[Bojan11]

Taking my post completely out of context. What you don't seem to realise is people not being educated will result in a long term problem of lack of nurses, surgeons etc because the people who would normally have made it didn't get the appropriate education, therefore costing life, or is it only some form of life that's important to you?

Also a long term lock down happens the economy will collapse to the point people won't be able to afford to FEED THEIR KIDS.

If you're actually an advocate of long term lockdown you're may aswellsigning scores of young children's death warrants.

So stopping education for a few months is going to stop somebody becoming a surgeon and nurse?

Have a word with yourself.

 

[0le]

Is there anything to this? He's showing that most facemasks won't stop small droplets getting through except for the N95 masks but he's using an aerosol and I have no clue how and aerosol compares to human breath. I can't find the original with sound either.

Note it is possible I may have misunderstood or misintepreted the following papers:

I had search about through the literature about N95 masks and they are classified using particles which are 300nm (nanometer) according to this paper:

N95 filtering face piece respirators are certified under NIOSH 42 CFR 84 regulations.Uncharged sodiumchloride (NaCl) particles of 300 nm in diameter are utilized as the tested aerosol.

I had a search through some literature on measuring the size of the droplets from "aerosol cans" which are hair sprays, deodrants etc. One paper reported they are on average, about 8.5um (micrometers):

Several investigators have reported size information for various cosmetic aerosols. The most frequently studied product is hair spray. Draize, Nelson, New- berger & Kelley (1959) reported that hair spray particulates ranged from less than 1 um to 30um in diameter and had a mass median diameter of 8.5 um; the method of analysis was not reported.

I've then had a look at measurements of the droplet size distribution of a typical breath. One paper reported this::

Exhaled droplets from human subjects performing four respiratory actions (mouth breathing, nose breathing, coughing, talking) were measured by both an optical particle counter (OPC) and an analytical transmission electron microscope (AEM). The OPC indicated a preponderance of particles less than 1 μ, although larger particles were also found. Measurements with the AEM confirmed the existence of larger sized droplets in the exhaled breath. In general, coughing produced the largest droplet concentrations and nose breathing the least, although considerable intersubject variability was observed.

According to this paper, the droplet size is 16um. I don't know the size technique they used, but Fig.3 in this paper shows the respective size distributions as well. They also measured the velocities using a well established technique.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Wayne Rooney says players face a no-win situation in wage debate

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52172196

Is he being a dick or does he have a point.

He has a point, make it a government decision of 30% wage reduction for ALL high earners and block rich profitable businesses from trying to use the taxpayer to pay their staff.
Or better still, temporary crisis extra 30% tax on high earners, then the money goes right to the taxpayer.

 

[Coxy]

Wayne Rooney says players face a no-win situation in wage debate

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52172196

Is he being a dick or does he have a point.

Both to be honest!

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Quite a few people out and about here but no groups as far as I could see unless they were families. This coming week will be interesting as the weather is going to be even better. Don't think people will stay indoors much.

 

[adexkola]

I could give two shits about anyones education. People can recover from that. Just like the economy can recover. You know who can’t recover? The people dying. So that should be the main priority which is saving lives not your nieces education.

Nobody has even talked about going into lockdown until Vaccine comes. But reducing the number of cases is the priority and having a lockdown will help that.

You say it’s not about wanting to go back to the pub or cinema? Then what is it about? These are the businesses that you talking about that will struggle, but you don’t want to go there. So what is it?

Good for you as a private citizen.

It would be irresponsible for any competent government to only focus on saving lives in the near term, at the expense of everything else.

This has been called a war (against the epidemic of course). Well in war, any military officer will tell you that at the highest levels of planning, there are strategic tradeoffs that occur, where saving the lives of their personnel is the highest priority, but that considering other high priorities (such as success of the war, the after effects of the war, and so on) will yield a number of casualties everyone can live with or tolerate.

It's already happening now. If governments wanted to truly keep the amount of deaths as low as possible they would implement absolute stay indoors orders. Go outside and you're sentenced to life, or something like that. You can say it's impossible to have such an order (it's not), but the more realistic answer is that the costs of such an approach were too high, even considering that you would get less deaths that way.

So yeah I don't blame anyone in this thread for holding thoughts like the bolded. But @Dan's thinking will be shared by any political figure removed from the immediate emotion of the situation.

 

[SalfordRed18]

This should be bigger news, but it'll get swept under the carpet and videos of people clapping will be shown instead.

 

[Dancfc]

So stopping education for a few months is going to stop somebody becoming a surgeon and nurse?

Have a word with yourself.

I never said a few months, I know schools are out till September and got no qualms with it.

I'm talking about the idea of lockdown "for as long as it takes", anyone who thinks thats has been utterly brainwashed and ironically would be the approach that costs the most lives (and by some distance).

I'm on board with the current measures in the short term,it's the right thing to do, but there will come a point it becomes counter productive and do the total opposite of protecting the NHS and saving lives.

 

[massi83]

German figures still make little sense considering how many have been “critical” for weeks now.
Chance Germany is only calling it a Covid-death is Covid-19 is the main cause?

No. They have repeatedly said they count all deads with covid. It seems really hard for you to consider the fact that some country might do something better than Sweden#1.

 

[Josep Dowling]

We currently have the most selfish society that’s ever walked the earth. This virus has shown us that.

The police can’t police everyone, they should make an example of some of these idiot and lock some of them up for a week and start really fining them. When will they learn, probably only when they know someone who does.

I personally don’t think this is true. The virus is invisible and there are carriers that aren’t showing symptoms. It’s very difficult to stop even with super strict lockdown laws. The big issue was the government was too slow to react and the virus had already spread at that point. All country borders should have been closed other than to get nationals home to their own countries.

 

[horsechoker]

Note it is possible I may have misunderstood or misintepreted the following papers:

I had search about through the literature about N95 masks and they are classified using particles which are 300nm (nanometer) according to this paper:


I had a search through some literature on measuring the size of the droplets from "aerosol cans" which are hair sprays, deodrants etc. One paper reported they are on average, about 8.5um (micrometers):


I've then had a look at measurements of the droplet size distribution of a typical breath. One paper reported this::


According to this paper, the droplet size is 16um. I don't know the size technique they used, but Fig.3 in this paper shows the respective size distributions as well. They also measured the velocities using a well established technique.

Ah ok, I thought it might have been an invalid test

 

[0le]

Ah ok, I thought it might have been an invalid test

The purpose of the test seems to be to demonstrate that some masks are more effective than others and that there may be some masks that offer virtually no protection whatsoever.

The papers I linked suggest there may be some similarity between the size of droplets from breathing and the size of droplets from aerosol cans sold to the public. If the size of the droplets he produced from his deodorant are the same as the size of the droplets exhaled from breathing, then it shows that those particular masks in his test are useless for the current pandemic, with regards to exhaling.

N95 masks are still absolutely fine.

EDIT: added bit in bold

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

No. They have repeatedly said they count all deads with covid. It seems really hard for you to consider the fact that some country might do something better than Sweden#1.

Eh?

God you’re a weird bunch in here. Norway so far are doing a better job than Sweden, South Korea certainly, Singapore, China (who knows).

I’ve no idea how well Sweden will do, probably the same as most other European countries by the end I’d imagine, I genuinely don’t think there will be a huge difference anywhere.

But Germany have had thousands critically ill for weeks, yet their numbers go up so little everyday, unlike any other country?

 

[Irwin99]

People staying home last weekend and this present weekend in response to the Tokyo Governor`s call - credit to many Tokyoites for doing that - cannot reverse the damage done not only from the carelessness and complacency that set in but the basic reason for it. And that is the Japan`s Government`s refusal to conduct any real testing which would enable them to isolate quickly and track cases and potential cases. And of course now as the more realistic figures although highly likely under-reported are coming out in the unique Japanese linear way instead of exponential way, another `surprise` is the inability to track a significant number of cases and potential cases.

Japan is not an outlier - it`s an out and out liar.

I thought this was the country that brought Hikomori to the world ....they should already have millions of people staying at home, doing nothing.

 

[sglowrider]

 

[Dve]

Because people mainly get infected from touching an infected surface... A mask does not stop you touching an Infected surface then your own face

A mask does stop an infected person coughing onto a surface or onto their hands and can prevent the surface becoming infected in the first place

Or at least that's my guess?

Yes, that´s an important point. And not only when you cough, but the mask will also stop much of your spit when you open your mouth to speak.

 

[massi83]

Eh?

God you’re a weird bunch in here. Norway so far are doing a better job than Sweden, South Korea certainly, Singapore, China (who knows).

I’ve no idea how well Sweden will do, probably the same as most other European countries by the end I’d imagine, I genuinely don’t think there will be a huge difference anywhere.

But Germany have had thousands critically ill for weeks, yet their numbers go up so little everyday, unlike any other country?

Probably it is because they have better protected their elderly. Younger people can stay critical for a long time but still survive.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

This should be bigger news, but it'll get swept under the carpet and videos of people clapping will be shown instead.

Is it wrong to invest in companies that have seen falls in stock prices?
What exactly is getting swept under the carpet, I don't follow?

 

[sglowrider]

Eh?

God you’re a weird bunch in here. Norway so far are doing a better job than Sweden, South Korea certainly, Singapore, China (who knows).

I’ve no idea how well Sweden will do, probably the same as most other European countries by the end I’d imagine, I genuinely don’t think there will be a huge difference anywhere.

But Germany have had thousands critically ill for weeks, yet their numbers go up so little everyday, unlike any other country?

What are you blabbering on about? Facts matter.

Norway got its first case on the 29th of Feb and has 5,645 cases to date with 66 deaths in five weeks -- relative newbies to the game. Both Korea and Singapore had their first cases back in January.

Norway's much further back along the curve.

 

[0le]

This should be bigger news, but it'll get swept under the carpet and videos of people clapping will be shown instead.

To be honest, NHS clapping is newsworthy. It raises morale in the community and more importantly, for staff. A politician carrying out what seems to be investments (according to what others have said here) is not newsworthy whatsoever.

 

[cyberman]

I never said a few months, I know schools are out till September and got no qualms with it.

I'm talking about the idea of lockdown "for as long as it takes", anyone who thinks thats has been utterly brainwashed and ironically would be the approach that costs the most lives (and by some distance).

I'm on board with the current measures in the short term,it's the right thing to do, but there will come a point it becomes counter productive and do the total opposite of protecting the NHS and saving lives.

Theres so much that will happen between now and that point. The mistake youre making is looking too far into the future as if this is it.
Thats where the restlessness is coming from and its unnecesary.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Probably it is because they have better protected their elderly. Younger people can stay critical for a long time but still survive.

Good point, but it’d still mean a record percentage making it through critical.

 

[0le]

We are not in any position to say any country is doing any better than any other country. Once the pandemic is over, the data examined and scrutinized, and the respected differences in all countries properly understood (e.g the way deaths are recorded, # of elderly, cultural values etc), we may then be able to say Country X did well and Country Y did not.

 

[Josep Dowling]

a

Wayne Rooney says players face a no-win situation in wage debate

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52172196

Is he being a dick or does he have a point.

Players aren’t playing or even training and are getting paid ridiculous salaries. Any football players arguing this point are dicks in my opinion . The entire football community should have been quicker to offer financial support. The fact they haven’t and the defence of the PFA for their actions is awful. Can’t help but feel elite football has shown it’s true colours in this situation. I just hope United don’t furlough staff as well otherwise I will question supporting the club anymore.

 

[Prometheus]

Taking my post completely out of context. What you don't seem to realise is people not being educated will result in a long term problem of lack of nurses, surgeons etc because the people who would normally have made it didn't get the appropriate education, therefore costing life, or is it only some form of life that's important to you?

Also a long term lock down happens the economy will collapse to the point people won't be able to afford to FEED THEIR KIDS.

If you're actually an advocate of long term lockdown you're may aswellsigning scores of young children's death warrants.

Missing out on some temporary schoolwork is not going to result in being people "not being educated", and lack of nurses and surgeons. Your concern, you say, is that then people will die as a result. First of all, it's hard for me to buy your concern for the people of the future if you're so apathetic about the deaths that would occur now without lock down. Secondly, the facts are: presently, people are dying, and more people would die without lock down measures. It's imperative that we try and save these lives. What's actually causing a shortage of nurses and surgeons is the disease overwhelming the healthcare system, like it did in Italy, which actually cost the lives of 60+ doctors so far; or over 600 years of medical training! This actually causes shortage of medical professionals, not your nieces missing opportunities to doodle dinosaurs.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

I think the social distancing rules are unbalanced. I can't understand why the government is so upset about people sunbathing in a park when they are well spread out, but continue to encourage manufacturing businesses to stay open where 10s 100s or 1000s are working together in a closed environment.

 

[FrankDrebin]

F*cking wacko country.

 

[Prometheus]

I think the social distancing rules are unbalanced. I can't understand why the government is so upset about people sunbathing in a park when they are well spread out, but continue to encourage manufacturing businesses to stay open where 10s 100s or 1000s are working together in a closed environment.

You're right on the second point, but regarding sunbathers, people are not spread out. They are treating it as friends/family social gathering.

 

[do.ob]

German figures still make little sense considering how many have been “critical” for weeks now.
Chance Germany is only calling it a Covid-death is Covid-19 is the main cause?

Germany even keeps taking (small doeses) of Corona patients from other countries, three days ago it was another 200. A member of my family has colleagues at a larger hospital in a bigger city and while they have made preparations for an onslaught they barely seem to have to handle any critical cases thus far. Despite afaik doing the most tests per capita in Europe we have 70k active cases and before the crisis were listed with 28k ICU beds and 25k ventilators. I think thus far our health services just haven't really been tested by the Virus yet, at least in comparison to the UK with 42k active cases and apparently 6k ventilators for the NHS.

 

[0le]

I think the social distancing rules are unbalanced. I can't understand why the government is so upset about people sunbathing in a park when they are well spread out, but continue to encourage manufacturing businesses to stay open where 10s 100s or 1000s are working together in a closed environment.

Manfacturing is absolutely essential. We still need supplies, for example, chemical supplies for those new tests, oxygen for hospitals, food production etc. The workers here are just as much keyworkers as the NHS workers.

 

[BootsyCollins]

We should look at countries doing well and see what exactly is the reason why. And we should look at countries with bigger problems and see what went wrong.

But this pandemic had created a sort of hatred towards people who think different than yourself. Or maybe not created but made much stronger and more visable. The fact is that expert dont know much on how to handle this, so people on internet forums and social media knows even less. Still everybody is so sure thats they are right and everybody who differs are wrong. And i understand with the stakes at risk people are tense as hell, but we should all try to relax a little and understand that we all want the same thing. For this, and what follows, to do as little damage as possible.

 

[Eriku]

What are you blabbering on about? Facts matter.

Norway got its first case on the 29th of Feb and has 5,645 cases to date with 66 deaths in five weeks -- relative newbies to the game. Both Korea and Singapore had their first cases back in January.

Norway's much further back along the curve.

He said compared to Sweden. He was just giving examples that he’s not just shouting Sweden #1.

 

[Dancfc]

Theres so much that will happen between now and that point. The mistake youre making is looking too far into the future as if this is it.
Thats where the restlessness is coming from and its unnecesary.

The future has to be looked at and potential situations that may rise.

The cold hard reality is, lockdown for any serious length of time can't happen, it will cost too many lives. If for argument sake we can close down the world for around a year/until this virus dies or mutates to low risk and still have a healthy situation to come out of it, ofcourse I'd be firmly on board with it no matter what but that won't be the case.

Missing out on some temporary schoolwork is not going to result in being people "not being educated", and lack of nurses and surgeons. Your concern, you say, is that then people will die as a result. First of all, it's hard for me to buy your concern for the people of the future if you're so apathetic about the deaths that would occur without lock down. The facts are: presently, people are dying, and more people would die without lock down measures. It's imperative that we try and save these lives. What's actually causing a shortage of nurses and surgeons is the disease overwhelming the healthcare system, like it did in Italy, which actually cost the lives of 60+ doctors so far; or over 600 years of medical training! This actually causes shortage of medical professionals, not your nieces missing opportunities to doodle dinosaurs.

Okay then, let's say for argument sake we lock down till the virus either completely dies or heads to very low risk, and for further argument sake let's say that takes a year.

The world reopens with 60% of businesses gone (and let's be clear, that's a wildly optimistic estimate), who pays the taxes that keep the NHS running? Who pays the taxes that keep the many many families who can't find a job because there are none fed?

And I'm not "apathetic" about the deaths that will occur, not least because at some point a lockdown will actually start causing more deaths in the moment too, get to that in a second. I've already said I'm on board with the measures at the minute, it's just not remotely sustainable for this to be a long term thing. Even factoring out the devastating long term effects, hospitals will at some point while the virus is still prelevant be inundated with patients who attempt suicide, are victims of domestic violence, come into complication due to severe stess etc (all of those things are going up already) and that will keep rising further while the country are on house arrest, what will that do? Further take away staff from Covid areas, take more ventilators so someone with the virus will be denied it, in others words totally defeating the object of lock down in the first place.

I want in a perfect world no lives lost atall but tragically that's not possible, so the next best thing is as many lives saved as humanly possible, a lock down for any serious amount of time won't be how that's achieved.

I fully agree with the measures presently because at this moment in time they are protecting the NHS and saving lives, but it will get to a point where it starts doing the complete opposite, not just in the long run but the immediate present as explained above.

 

[Sky1981]

No, don`t forget China. It`s the most secretive and dictatorial government in the world and more so than North Korea because its economic power allows it be part of the international business community. No mass graves? They don`t need them - they have cremation as is common in many countries in Asia. They need more urns and more urns have been noted. The great firewall of China is their friend - the internet in some ways is completely unrecognisable in China from our perspective.

Another secretive country that is generally a democracy although it has some surprisingly authoritarian aspects when you know its legal system and live here is Japan.

Forget Japan among the exemplars - if you believe Japan deserves to be listed with the other countries re COVID-19 for good government that includes transparency of policy and information, a health system whose experts are given media freedom to speak openly. politicians being truthful and not concealing data and genuine means to get this pandemic under control such as increasing testing and then isolation of the
infected, then you are very much mistaken.

I`m in Tokyo and I expect there to be many more cases here and everywhere except the most isolated parts of the archipelago that is Japan. Apparently `now` the numbers for all Japan are over 4,000 with under 100 deaths. And guess what? They`re increasing in a linear way according to the national govt`s data fudgers, er statisticians. So Japan doesn`t have exponential increases. Apparently.

The answer to all this nonsense about putting Japan with responsible countries is simple - criminally low testing numbers. The policy is to refuse testing except if you have pneumonia. There are exceptions now such as Japanese nationals returning from abroad. There are a few exceptions in some prefectures.

The Tokyo Olympics were the biggest stand-alone reason this shit-show has been allowed to develop but of course medical cartels, media cartels, a disgraceful right wing government and a shambles of opposition parties, lack of an active participation in political discussion and debate among the Japanese public, in some cases a sense of superiority that Japanese somehow wouldn`t have any real problem with the virus because they are `cleaner`, etc, have actively repressed responsible measures.

Surprise, surprise - increasing clusters have formed around so-called entertainment areas commonly located throughout urban Japan near major railway stations. The sex industry there often functions as quickie sex breaks for male company employees during the day and then after work. . Now we hear the virus is increasingly showing up in a younger demographic - unsurprising considering the complacency that set in during the latter part of February.

Of course it is also connected to international travel with Japanese just like other countries` people refusing to change or cancel their plans. Less understandable to me is why a significant number of them decided to get their jollies in Italy, Spain and France despite having earlier information on COVID-19`s rampant spread there.

Grossly deflated case numbers because of minimal testing caused many in Tokyo especially to lower their guard unlike in January and most of February although some attractions and bars, cafes and clubs stayed shuttered.

In the middle of March I was astonished to see university students over-crowding popular areas and then at night time when coming home from work, young and not so young company employees, many drunk, laughing and spraying their saliva around on crowded Yamanote Loop Line stations. This is the main Tokyo line that runs around the city. That scene is not unusual in normal times but it shouldn`t have gone on the way it did in these times.

Elderly people were riding subways and trains for something to do during the daytime because a number of community centres for the elderly had closed amidst earlier virus fears. As March progressed those with more money started taking weekday and weekend trips on the lines leading from Tokyo to the surrounding prefectures. The Tokyo Olympics hadn`t been cancelled yet.

People staying home last weekend and this present weekend in response to the Tokyo Governor`s call - credit to many Tokyoites for doing that - cannot reverse the damage done not only from the carelessness and complacency that set in but the basic reason for it. And that is the Japan`s Government`s refusal to conduct any real testing which would enable them to isolate quickly and track cases and potential cases. And of course now as the more realistic figures although highly likely under-reported are coming out in the unique Japanese linear way instead of exponential way, another `surprise` is the inability to track a significant number of cases and potential cases.

Japan is not an outlier - it`s an out and out liar.

So, what do you think happened in Japan and China? People dying by the millions? Millions of dead bodies burnt secretly? Do you ever cremate a family member? I have, took like a good 4-6 hours for the whole process. I guess china is so good that not only the can build hospital in 10 days, they can burn hundred thousands of bodies without any smoke or any prove.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Germany even keeps taking (small doeses) of Corona patients from other countries, three days ago it was another 200. A member of my family has colleagues at a larger hospital in a bigger city and while they have made preparations for an onslaught they barely seem to have to handle any critical cases thus far. Despite afaik doing the most tests per capita in Europe we have 70k active cases and before the crisis were listed with 28k ICU beds and 25k ventilators. I think thus far our health services just haven't really been tested by the Virus yet, at least in comparison to the UK with 42k active cases and apparently 6k ventilators for the NHS.

I love Germany man, used to live in Minden, and if anyone was gonna make a “success” of this it was you guys, think everyone would have put their mortgage on that.

I still wonder how you have so many serious/critical yet so few daily deaths, are you doing something better than other health services? The UK aren’t overwhelmed yet and they are still losing a much higher rate of critically ill.

Unless the critically ill numbers on worldometers are just incorrect for Germany.

 

[cyberman]

The future has to be looked at and potential situations that may rise.

The cold hard reality is, lockdown for any serious length of time can't happen, it will cost too many lives. If for argument sake we can close down the world for around a year/until this virus dies or mutates to low risk and still have a healthy situation to come out of it, ofcourse I'd be firmly on board with it no matter what but that won't be the case.


Okay then, let's say for argument sake we lock down till the virus either completely dies or heads to very low risk, and for further argument sake let's say that takes a year.

The world reopens with 60% of businesses gone (and let's be clear, that's a wildly optimistic estimate), who pays the taxes that keep the NHS running? Who pays the taxes that keep the many many families who can't find a job because there are none fed?

And I'm not "apathetic" about the deaths that will occur, not least because at some point a lockdown will actually start causing more deaths in the moment too, get to that in a second. I've already said I'm on board with the measures at the minute, it's just not remotely sustainable for this to be a long term thing. Even factoring out the devastating long term effects, hospitals will at some point while the virus is still prelevant be inundated with patients who attempt suicide, are victims of domestic violence, come into complication due to severe stess etc (all of those things are going up already) and that will keep rising further while the country are on house arrest, what will that do? Further take away staff from Covid areas, take more ventilators so someone with the virus will be denied it, in others words totally defeating the object of lock down in the first place.

I want in a perfect world no lives lost atall but tragically that's not possible, so the next best thing is as many lives saved as humanly possible, a lock down for any serious amount of time won't be how that's achieved.

I fully agree with the measures presently because at this moment in time they are protecting the NHS and saving lives, but it will get to a point where it starts doing the complete opposite, not just in the long run but the immediate present as explained above.

Its impossible to look too far into the future, we are still catching up to the virus and we need to analyse it to a greater degree before knowing our next move.
What happens if immunity lasts a few months? What damage does it leave and would the danger be greater to younger people second time around?
This isnt a Brexit strategy where we can negotiate with it, if we dont get a hold on this then millions could die from waves that seems to travel in close cycles to each other if they are indeed worried about winter reinfections.
The way we live our life has changed until we get a vaccine, its just how it is.
That is the cold hard fact.