SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Today's positive COVID-19 story comes from Stockport:



Also goats in Llandudno have come down from the hills to the town! There's a whole thread on it:

 
In the interests of not causing stress please can you use links or something. Getting tired of shock posts like this. We don't need them.
Yeah I'll include a link to a Dutch-written article every time I post an update if that really helps you. Enjoy.

And we do need shock posts because there's still people who don't understand how serious this is. It's no use trying to gloss over the hard reality out there.
 
Yeah I'll include a link to a Dutch-written article every time I post an update if that really helps you. Enjoy.

And we do need shock posts because there's still people who don't understand how serious this is. It's no use trying to gloss over the hard reality out there.
No need to get snippy, he's right.
 
My best friends' grandmother just died because of the Corona virus. She was 89 years old. I've known her for 30+ years. Only 1 person was with her during the last couple of days because of the Covid-19 restrictions. Damn...
Sorry to hear that mate, that sucks :( Keep your head up.
 
No need to get snippy, he's right.
"We don't need shock posts even though they're telling the truth and show that literally everyone dies because of this thing, not just 65+ year olds". Okay then.
 
Sorry, saw this post after I’d replied.

I’ll repeat my previous point though. Don’t expect to understand everything. Yes new things confuse intelligent people. But intelligent people take time to learn, rather than criticise something they can’t immediately grasp.

Your options are;

- Learn to understand something new
- Not comment

To state that data should only be used in ‘proper circles’ is daft. It’s the readers duty to learn. Not the presenters job to dumb down or explain.
Jumping in here. When its in a paperi think it needs to be explained for the "dumbest" reader not the "smartest".

Not just talking about this graph but anything really.
 
Yeah I'll include a link to a Dutch-written article every time I post an update if that really helps you. Enjoy.

And we do need shock posts because there's still people who don't understand how serious this is. It's no use trying to gloss over the hard reality out there.

You enjoy your scare mongering.
Was the child healthy first of all? Any previous conditions? What’s the details? Or you could just keep posting click bait shock like posts to get your point across
 
We are amazing at bringing new measures that are actually not changing anything anyway. Limit of customers in shops now set at 3 times the number of available cashiers (which seems to have been this way for a while anyway), children cannot be outside without supervision of adults. Obviously they are still talking about getting back to normal in April because elections in May absolute HAVE TO TAKE PLACE, no matter how dangerous it will be.
 
Should I put my life savings on that?

Never punt everything...But with negative interest rates on the horizon, it's an option worth considering.

How exactly do you buy this? I've never dabbled.

I've never done it before, either - owned a few shares in us before selling them to the Glazers, although that was something symbolic.rather than an investment- but I'm seriously tempted for the first time ever.

In our company, we just agree prices with different suppliers at different locations in much the same way a mortgage works - fixed price for two years ; five year price per barrell tracker, etc....In truth, there isn't much choice beyond what the suppliers are prepared to offer, but at least that takes some of the risk out of us making the wrong decision.

If I understand it correctly, you need about $ 2 million cash or guaranteed borrowing capacity and then a Futures Trader will agree to take you on board and you use them to buy and sell oil futures. Less than $ 2 million, I understand, they're reluctant. and as I haven't got $ 2 million lying around, I'm thinking of joining a syndicate like those syndicates that buy race horses but one that ' dabbles ' as you put it, in oil futures.

In retrospect, I probably should have put this in a different thread as some people might think it's a bit tasteless discussing money. Apologies to those offended....
 
You enjoy your scare mongering.
Was the child healthy first of all? Any previous conditions? What’s the details? Or you could just keep posting click bait shock like posts to get your point across

It needs to be shared as a wake-up call for the fecking idiots who still throw lock down parties and deny the fact this is a threat to us all.

As far as we know, the child didn't have any previous conditions.
 
This might seems foreign to you. But in some parts of the worlds we cling to them, more than the alternatives.

There are people that needs authoritarian leader to function.

Its like giving the power of choices to a 10 year olds. It might be democracy but it wont end well

Democracy would be shit for minorities. If our wellbeing is left to democracy we could be far worse.

The leader is good the leader is great
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We are amazing at bringing new measures that are actually not changing anything anyway. Limit of customers in shops now set at 3 times the number of available cashiers (which seems to have been this way for a while anyway), children cannot be outside without supervision of adults. Obviously they are still talking about getting back to normal in April because elections in May absolute HAVE TO TAKE PLACE, no matter how dangerous it will be.
We have one cashier in our village shop in Italy. This morning she was only allowing 4 people to be inside at any one time - fair enough, I said. She was very apologetic, bless her. It's a family-run shop and they're the heart of the village right now, they're keeping everyone going.

Things are getting thin on the shelves. It's not that people are panic-buying, it's just that everyone is buying all their provisions at one small shop and the deliveries can't keep pace. This is the sort of shop where you'd pop in twice a week for milk and a few extra bits - now we all have to do all our shopping there, because the nearest big supermarket lies outside our Comune boundaries.
 
Jumping in here. When its in a paperi think it needs to be explained for the "dumbest" reader not the "smartest".

Not just talking about this graph but anything really.

They should probably take into account their readership too though. I suspect readers of the Financial Times find more value in these sort of graphs than people who just read the more standard daily newspapers might.

Plus context is important too. If you're just presenting one graph on its own then that's different to presenting a series of different graphs. Also the FT guy provides an explanation for why they're using log scales and not using per capita figures each time he posts updated charts:



Aside from having value in and of itself, those explanations give you license to go a bit deeper than just planting graphs in a paper copy newspaper would, I think.
 
The graph is for people that understand it. If you don’t, study the topic for an hour. I’m sure you have the time. It’s not difficult.

Educate yourself. Don’t assume everything should adapt to your level of understanding.

Not really any need to be so passive aggressive, it is being shared liberally across all education levels, on social media. It isn't being shared across people 'that understand it' and is misleading when glanced at, which is what 90% of people looking at it will do.

This has already been talked about above, and I've conceded that it is useful in the right place, or when explained.

Unless it's escaped your notice, we're on a football forum, where the majority of people aren't going to go away and start 'educating themselves' about every single graph or table that comes their way. If we were on a medics forum or a statistics forum then maybe.

You know nothing about me, or my background, but we're both reading this info on redcafe. Generally information is provided at the readers level, so that it is understood. Anyone sharing info above the average readers level, without explanation is either purposefully misleading the audience, or just a very poor communicator.

Obviously there are many levels of intellect or understanding on here, and on twitter, but when someone misinterprets what has been shared, why not just explain? Or indeed note that it already has been explained by posters before you, instead of flogging a dead horse, for no other reason than to stroke your own ego, and show everyone how much smarter you are than the rest of us.

The graph obviously is a very useful tool for those that know how to use it properly, the fact is though that 99% of people won't know how to use it properly, and it being shared so freely is confusing at best for the majority that see it.

I guess I'm fortunate, I've studied statistics, economics and econometrics etc so I can read up on it properly and learn how to interpret it properly. But a lot of people won't have that understanding, and certainly won't want to spend the time trying.

Edit: I've replied to your other comment. I've been a bit less defensive in that one :lol:
 
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In norway it seems like the curves are flattening. from 382 new cases the 28th to 281 the 29th, then 251 yesterday and so far today only 39.
If this trend continues then we might be able to open up schools etc. after easter holidays. I hope this is real and not due to less testing or just a temporary downspike.
Would be a great accomplishment if we managed to wrest control over this so early.
 
Sorry, saw this post after I’d replied.

I’ll repeat my previous point though. Don’t expect to understand everything. Yes new things confuse intelligent people. But intelligent people take time to learn, rather than criticise something they can’t immediately grasp.

Your options are;

- Learn to understand something new
- Not comment

To state that data should only be used in ‘proper circles’ is daft. It’s the readers duty to learn. Not the presenters job to dumb down or explain.

I've, likewise just seen your response previous response.

I agree to a degree, when you are sharing things in public circles you do have an element of a duty of care to ensure that the message is understood.

There is no point sharing data with the masses, if it will be misconstrued (unless that is your intention).

A good informer, will provide information at the level that will be understood by the audience.

It isn't that the data should only be available in the proper circles, it's that it should be presented in an understandable fashion.

People should try to better themselves too though of course, it works both ways. But you can't expect people that scraped through school (for example) to understand log graphs all of a sudden.
 
Yeah I'll include a link to a Dutch-written article every time I post an update if that really helps you. Enjoy.

And we do need shock posts because there's still people who don't understand how serious this is. It's no use trying to gloss over the hard reality out there.
Yes but we don't need what can potentially be bullshit stories circulating on social media posted either, given people are on a state of alert anyway. Asking for reliable sources is hardly unreasonable.
 
Today's positive COVID-19 story comes from Stockport:



Also goats in Llandudno have come down from the hills to the town! There's a whole thread on it:



It quite nice to see all these rainbows that kids have been drawing and sticking on their windows, not sure where that started from. Saw one saying 'please stay home, my mummy is a nurse'.
 
Jumping in here. When its in a paperi think it needs to be explained for the "dumbest" reader not the "smartest".

Not just talking about this graph but anything really.

Exactly my point, information should be laid out to the understanding of the reader, not the person providing it.
 
It needs to be shared as a wake-up call for the fecking idiots who still throw lock down parties and deny the fact this is a threat to us all.

As far as we know, the child didn't have any previous conditions.

And you think those people are reading this thread?

As far as you know how?
 
They should probably take into account their readership too though. I suspect readers of the Financial Times find more value in these sort of graphs than people who just read the more standard daily newspapers might.

Plus context is important too. If you're just presenting one graph on its own then that's different to presenting a series of different graphs. Also the FT guy provides an explanation for why they're using log scales and not using per capita figures each time he posts updated charts:



Aside from having value in and of itself, those explanations give you license to go a bit deeper than just planting graphs in a paper copy newspaper would, I think.


This does help to provide more context, thanks for that. Maybe the issue is more to do with the graphs plonked in isolation in the middle of a conversation on a football forum
 
Yeah I'll include a link to a Dutch-written article every time I post an update if that really helps you. Enjoy.

And we do need shock posts because there's still people who don't understand how serious this is. It's no use trying to gloss over the hard reality out there.

Its very easy to translate. Don't start getting pissy or you can do one.
 
And you think those people are reading this thread?

As far as you know how?

There are people in this thread that are underestimating the problem, yes.

As Belgian media are reporting, she had no previous conditions.

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenlan...og-emmanuel-andre-zwaar-aangeslagen~aaa0ea8a/

"Yesterday, a twelve-year-old girl passed away," said Van Gucht. “She tested positive for the coronavirus. The child suddenly deteriorated after three days of fever. She was then rushed to hospital, where she died fairly quickly. As far as we know, there were no underlying health problems with this girl. ”
 
"We don't need shock posts even though they're telling the truth and show that literally everyone dies because of this thing, not just 65+ year olds". Okay then.

Well this is just panic fueled nonsense. If you're young you'll almost certainly be fine. Anyone can die of anything at anytime.
 
This does help to provide more context, thanks for that. Maybe the issue is more to do with the graphs plonked in isolation in the middle of a conversation on a football forum
This thread is 547 pages in. We're well past the stage where everything needs to be explained from the beginning.

Just hold your hands up, admit you were talking bollocks, and stop digging. It's a graph with log scale axis in a mainstream British newspaper. It's perfectly reasonable to post it here.

There's no shame in not understanding everything posted here. I certainly don't.
 
This thread is 547 pages in. We're well past the stage where everything needs to be explained from the beginning.

Just hold your hands up, admit you were talking bollocks, and stop digging. It's a graph with log scale axis in a mainstream British newspaper. It's perfectly reasonable to post it here.

There's no shame in not understanding everything posted here. I certainly don't.


Why is everyone so aggressive on here?

I'm not bothered I didn't understand it, I held my hands up on the very first reply to me that I had misinterpreted it, perhaps you should take the time to actually read the conversation, rather than ploughing in with insults.

As I've stated, the graph is valid, but when it is being used on twitter and football forums it needs more explanation, the size of the thread is irrelevant. 99% of people won't understand it, I've studied stats, and still misinterpreted it.

Most people will glance at it, and get the wrong end of the stick, it is irresponsible or misleading. Your average Joe doesn't know what a log scale axis is, in fact to a good majority on here, that sentence may as well be foreign.

Anyone that shares information, anywhere, should be aware of their audience.

I couldn't give two hoots that I didn't understand it, in fact that is exactly the issue, most people won't understand it, and that causes a big problem. When information is being shared to the masses, but they don't understand it, surely you can see how that can be a problem?

Someone above said either learn or don't comment. Sadly that means that most people won't comment, and will either have no idea what the graph means, or will misinterpret it. Neither of which is useful.
 
Some updated stats from Norway

Tested: over 90 000(almost 2% of the entire population)
Infected: roughly 4500
Hospitalized: 319
Died: 34

We're soon 5 weeks in, so I think we're doing quite well, thankfully. It's surprising that the death rate is far below 1%, though I expect it to rise a little.

Germany seems to be doing really well. I'm impressed by their response.
 
Yes but we don't need what can potentially be bullshit stories circulating on social media posted either, given people are on a state of alert anyway. Asking for reliable sources is hardly unreasonable.
If anyone asks for a reliable source I'll gladly provide them with one - I only post official government communicated things anyway and am not one to spread scare mongering on Twitter or any conspiracy theories. However "In the interests of not causing stress because we don't need shock posts", that's just a bullshit explanation. It's just a stone cold fact and not scare mongering or trying to create a shock effect / causing stress to anyone.

I don't know if Grinner is participating in this thread in his capacity as a mod or not but he's trying to monopolize it or leading it into a certain direction and it's definitely not helping, or at least really annoying me. But no problem, I'll provide a source next time - even though I don't see other posters asked for a source if they provide foreign numbers, so he was just doing it because he was annoyed by the "shock effect", not by the fact that it lacked a source.
 
Should be less "learn or don't comment" and more learn through commenting. Not much point having a discussion thread if we expect everyone to know as much as everyone else before they post.
 
If anyone asks for a reliable source I'll gladly provide them with one - I only post official government communicated things anyway and am not one to spread scare mongering on Twitter or any conspiracy theories. However "In the interests of not causing stress because we don't need shock posts", that's just a bullshit explanation. It's just a stone cold fact and not scare mongering or trying to create a shock effect / causing stress to anyone.

I don't know if Grinner is participating in this thread in his capacity as a mod or not but he's trying to monopolize it or leading it into a certain direction and it's definitely not helping, or at least really annoying me. But no problem, I'll provide a source next time.
Grinner just asked for a source, as without one a post could be perceived as scaremongering or shock if no-one can gauge the veracity of a story. Both him and jojojo have been consistent on that - no mod is trying to censor unpleasant news here. Fine you cite credible sources, others have been found to have been posting bs, whether inadvertently or not. A link is not a big ask, even if it is in a foreign language.
 
Why is everyone so aggressive on here?

I'm not bothered I didn't understand it, I held my hands up on the very first reply to me that I had misinterpreted it, perhaps you should take the time to actually read the conversation, rather than ploughing in with insults.

As I've stated, the graph is valid, but when it is being used on twitter and football forums it needs more explanation, the size of the thread is irrelevant. 99% of people won't understand it, I've studied stats, and still misinterpreted it.

Most people will glance at it, and get the wrong end of the stick, it is irresponsible or misleading. Your average Joe doesn't know what a log scale axis is, in fact to a good majority on here, that sentence may as well be foreign.

Anyone that shares information, anywhere, should be aware of their audience.

I couldn't give two hoots that I didn't understand it, in fact that is exactly the issue, most people won't understand it, and that causes a big problem. When information is being shared to the masses, but they don't understand it, surely you can see how that can be a problem?

Someone above said either learn or don't comment. Sadly that means that most people won't comment, and will either have no idea what the graph means, or will misinterpret it. Neither of which is useful.

To be fair, the dotted lines in the graph representing the doubling of cases over a certain number of days is all you really need to interpret the graph. Its clearly labelled . If it wasn't I'd agree with you that it is a bit misleading to the layman.
 
To be fair, the dotted lines in the graph representing the doubling of cases over a certain number of days is all you really need to interpret the graph. Its clearly labelled . If it wasn't I'd agree with you that it is a bit misleading to the layman.

Yes, the dotted lines are useful, I do think a lot of people could easily not pay attention to them though, focusing on their own country v another. Such as the UK v italy, as it is almost always used to compare.

The lines aren't easy to interpret in that sense, unless you understand the nature of the graph.
 
Should be less "learn or don't comment" and more learn through commenting. Not much point having a discussion thread if we expect everyone to know as much as everyone else before they post.
Where has anyone said that? I don't think anyone expects others to have assiduously read every post in this thread. Maybe an exception if someone is spouting utter nonsense or conspiracy stuff though.
 
If anyone asks for a reliable source I'll gladly provide them with one - I only post official government communicated things anyway and am not one to spread scare mongering on Twitter or any conspiracy theories. However "In the interests of not causing stress because we don't need shock posts", that's just a bullshit explanation. It's just a stone cold fact and not scare mongering or trying to create a shock effect / causing stress to anyone.

I don't know if Grinner is participating in this thread in his capacity as a mod or not but he's trying to monopolize it or leading it into a certain direction and it's definitely not helping, or at least really annoying me. But no problem, I'll provide a source next time - even though I don't see other posters asked for a source if they provide foreign numbers, so he was just doing it because he was annoyed by the "shock effect", not by the fact that it lacked a source.

You're welcome to leave if you don't like how this place is moderated.
 
I couldn't give two hoots that I didn't understand it, in fact that is exactly the issue, most people won't understand it, and that causes a big problem. When information is being shared to the masses, but they don't understand it, surely you can see how that can be a problem?
I can see it's a problem, but I don't think it's a problem a football forum can fix. I don't understand some of the medical information that's posted, but that's ok, some people do - and I can read a summary as well as anyone.

The graph in question is an example of data that will make sense to the people who are using it daily (like the epidemiologists) and to people who understand the maths, and are interested in the core reasoning behind those expert opinions we hear and the actions spinning out from them.

If you try and present the same data on linear scales - every country looks basically the same. A near horizontal line, followed some days later by a near vertical one - which just means no one can get any information from it. In other words a completely redundant graph that does nothing for anyone.
 
@ryansgirl you've been bang on the money re Japan. Just saw that now after Olympics got officially postponed, Tokyo is about to get a lockdown, and cases suddenly spiked.
Thanks for your reply. Yes, it's outrageous what has gone on here. There was an early first wave of what was called Wuhan Virus and some actions like recommending online work, putting curbs on large scale events etc. However, if anyone tried to tell me that Japan simply did not have enough testing capacity as some Japanese people did, I answered no, sorry, Japan has the means to do it including a national health system that is funded by expensive payments each month from residents including foreigners.

The Government did not want any real testing - the proof is small cities in Australia have tested more people than the whole of Japan has done for its population including large cities like Tokyo that has 14 million in the Greater Tokyo area. Plus many accounts from both foreigners and Japanese who were refused tests including people begging for them as their lungs developed problems.

Some Japanese people then said to me that the Government did not want clinics and hospitals flooded by people who only suspected they had the virus. Again - if other developed countries could suddenly do pop-up testing places and other means of testing without having people rush the medical system, then why couldn't Japan? The answer is the Govt didn't want anything to spoil the Olympic party. Well, now the party has been postponed and surprise, surprise, we're hearing about spikes in numbers and the Governor of Tokyo Yurika Koike is threatening a lockdown.

I doubt a real one will happen and to tell the truth, I'm ambivalent about it. I think we do need to consider the business side of lockdowns including the despair of bankruptcy, unemployment rocketing and the social dislocation caused by it, talking about every country that is dealing with this bastard of a virus, plus mental health issues, vulnerable people including those at risk from violence, people with disabilities etc.

From what I've seen here, the complacency in March could have been dealt with promptly. While there's a lot of nonsense spouted about Japan in the media and by people who haven't lived in Japan or live here and have a habit of dissasociating themselves from unpleasant realities especially when they don't understand the Japanese language to any real extent, there is a cultural inclination to accept monitoring and lack of privacy for the community good still in Japan.

I don't like it usually because 'the community good' issue is often twisted for busybodies' purposes or police officers with too much time on their hands to give 2 examples, but the Japanese tendency to accept it could have been put to good use by telling the elderly to get off the subways/trains and just stroll around their local area if they want to get out. They could have got serious about telling families to control the schoolkids who took the school shutdowns as excuse to hang out in numbers in entertainment areas like Shibuya and Shinjuku. Likewise uni students should have been told by their institutions that they were expected to behave with intelligence and not use the time off to gather in groups in those and other areas.

There is a lot of co-dependence in this society and uni students for example have far more to do with authority figures at their institutions than their counterparts in western countries. This could have been done. Some employers made their employees work from home but others thought and think it's fine for their employees to pack crowded trains in the mornings and evenings. Some adjustment for flexi-time would have made a big difference.

And the whole mask wearing culture is creating a dangerous complacency. The Japanese got into the habit of wearing masks because they go to work sick. Wearing them in times of epidemics and pandemics seems great and responsible but masks are only as good as your careful use of them. Taking them off and putting them on uncleaned surfaces and then your mouth, wearing them next to coughers and sneezers so their aerosols gets on your mask and you touch it, are fairly common here. So are idiots breathing down your neck at supermarkets and stations etc even when there is space.

I told a stupid woman to get out from right behind me only the other day. We were in a supermarket at a time where she and I were the only people lined up. So what did this numpty do? She stood right behind me. I said in Japanese firmly but politely to please step back but she just exclaimed 'Mask, mask.' Yeah, whatever you do don't reply in a correct Japanese sentence although I am using your language correctly..... You wouldn't believe how this stupidity repeats itself around Tokyo and in Japan at the moment. There is a kind of psychological rigidity at work here - many Japanese don't really understand that crowding around other people even when there is space is quite dysfunctional.
 
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Grinner just asked for a source, as without one a post could be perceived as scaremongering or shock if no-one can gauge the veracity of a story. Both him and jojojo have been consistent on that - no mod is trying to censor unpleasant news here. Fine you cite credible sources, others have been found to have been posting bs, whether inadvertently or not. A link is not a big ask, even if it is in a foreign language.
Yeah fair enough, I'll have it in mind next time!

You're welcome to leave if you don't like how this place is moderated.
I don't like how you moderate, there's a difference.