This graph makes me weirdly angry. Being in 5 month intervals just seems wrong, 3, 4 or 6 all go into 12 months perfectly
So true
British exceptionalism at his finestSARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
So true
British exceptionalism at his finestmore than 2 years with this now.
Is there any chance we get to the end in 2022
Is there any chance we get to the end in 2022
I agree that hospitalisations is the other critical metric.
It’s not really affected our lives for over 2 years yet though. I think it was the end of February/ early March before any sort of measures came into place in the west.
well, we will get there anyway
End? Almost no chance, we’ll be living with some endemic form of this for years.
Nope, unfortunately.
Truly amazes me how a government that has advanced so much in tech, finance, science, etc can have such a backward mentality based on pride in the silliest and pettiest form.
Also I do wonder how a less powerful military and financial country would have been treated if it had been the source country and behaved the way the the Chinese government has, surely the criticism would be much much worse esp in regards to how it as treating Africans in China last year.
In the field of individual rights, I am liberal minded and believe there are some freedoms (speech, thought, assembly, movement, etc.) that should be non-negotiable no matter what.
We have been doing this for over a year and to date it hasn't proven to be how Nazi Germany started. In fact it has been a great reassurance as you get automated contact alerts through the same app. It was even better when you could only scan in if vaccinated. That said some sensible pubs still require you to be vaccinated which are the only ones I'll go to.
NSW reducing restriction at the same time as Omicron has destroyed confidence and people have started to stay home in droves. NYE was very quiet and even many young people stayed home. My son is 23 and he stayed home with us as did all his mates for the first time in forever.
Many of the measures you dislike give you more freedom, not remove it.
I understand you have not seen your son during 2 years because he was stuck in the US: surely there is something wrong somewhere.
You mentioned Nazi Germany so let's see the Wiki definition and reflect on it
There are some similarities with Nazi Germany. QR code and apps are the modern tools used by the police state. Another aspect is the creation of second-class citizens who are persecuted based on their political views.
Human beings who do not comply with Covid measures (vaccination, masks, curfew, etc.) are the new second-class citizens. They can lose their job and are now engaged in a process of being severely criminalised, which paves the way for any future flourishing dictatorship regime
Last but not least, the risk is high to see any temporary restrictions to be permanent.
It's amazing convenient that you leave out the reason why these tools are being used, and why 'people are second-class citizens' in your comparison. I wonder why?
Can you think of many examples where people were rightly deemed second class citizens? Rightly in the sense that it was just and ultimately benefited society. I can think of a lot of bad examples but I genuinely struggle to think of good ones. Maybe one?
I know it’s not your phrase but that does seem like the slippery slope. Second class citizenry is defended on the basis of covid, then the idea of second class citizenry becomes normalised in a broader sense. Then dangerous avenues open up. It might not happen but it’s a legitimate fear IMO.
Or were people pretty comfortable with the idea of second class citizenry pre-covid?
As you've said, I'm using his nonsense terminology. Not being allowed to do certain things temporarily, because you refuse to protect yourself and others from a harmful and potentially fatal virus is in no way equivalent to anything he is talking about.
Leper colonies?
Using the same sort of analogy as you then sure, I can think of examples. The most obvious being anyone who thinks they should be allowed to drive a car without a driving license. Another would be someone who wants to work with/around kids and refuses to engage with the police vetting process.
None of those examples force people to get an unwanted medical procedure.
This is a retarded discussion. Look no further in history than the smallpox vaccine. Populations of those forced to take it were more robust and survived, and it didnt impact their long term freedoms. And how a lack of vaccine mandate + right wing idiot views (and some left wing) killed people in 20ty century America.
So? The notion @Brwned put forward was that denying some members of society certain rights if they weren’t willing to follow a state dictated process to attain those rights is a slippery slope to “second class citizens” Which is obviously not the case.
nobody has is being forced to take the vaccine either
Yup. Just like nobody is forced to get a driving license. But if you want one you have to follow a process defined by the state to get one. Which does actually include medical elements. An eye test. Obligation to drive wearing glasses if needed (and there are bound to be nutters somewhere who think wearing glasses causes them harm) Plus there are a lot of chronic medical conditions that require regular more holistic medical check-ups and adherence to prescribed medicines in order to be allowed to continue to drive (e.g. epilepsy)
I didn’t use any analogy! I just picked up on the second class citizen definition already in the discussion.
I think we can draw a distinction between a restriction of specific freedoms for directly related actions - you can’t drive if you can’t demonstrate you drive safely - and the broader restrictions of freedoms for things much more indirectly related.
The only kind of second class citizenry I can think is widely supported is criminals. They have freedoms restricted in ways that have no relation to the specific act they took, they’re clearly shut out of important parts of society, and while there’s a lot of flaws, people see it as a net positive.
I can’t think of many other examples for those broader, indirect restrictions of a large group for a specific action.
@Pogue Mahone @Tarrou True there is some nuance, but there is also a world of difference between not being able to drive a car or work with children, and being placed under virtual house arrest by the state, or whatever more relaxed or stricter restrictions you begin with. It's a bit tenuous to say the former examples really make you a 'second class citizen', definitely so if you're comparing it to the latter - but then we just delve into semantics over what 'second class citizen' actually means I suppose. There's nothing in history or current day to suggest any of these 'temporary restrictions' remain temporary at all. How long does it take before unvaccinated people cannot even purchase a property, go to a job interview etc. while the people who welcome these restrictions with open arms go about their lives in blissful ignorance.
The smallpox example is another good one to show that there is some nuance, it's never so cut and cry that we should or shouldn't go in one direction 100% of the time. I would be interested to know though how the mortality rate, disease severity and hospital treatments measure up between Covid & Smallpox in its' day.
The smallpox example is another good one to show that there is some nuance, it's never so cut and cry that we should or shouldn't go in one direction 100% of the time. I would be interested to know though how the mortality rate, disease severity and hospital treatments measure up between Covid & Smallpox in its' day.
Just to be clear I definitely don’t think that. I think that process is an essential part of society. I don’t think libertarianism is a sensible model. There’s just a lot of room for debate between having no restrictions on freedoms and having these restrictions for these reasons.
Not like Priti Patels nationality act doesn't do that despicable shit all by itself and completely independently of covid now is it. But chumps would rather focus on 'forced health mandates.'
The most intrusive thing in my opinion was the proposed smartphone app, which got nix'd pretty early.
Cases rising steadily despite lockdown. Time to open up and see what happens.
Not really or at least not in the sense of covid restrictions per se. Our useless government refused to fund proper quarantine. The problem wasn't one of freedom or rights but rather one of political incompetence which our federal government specialise in. Covid restrictions in general were a great idea and I thoroughly supported them. #scottyfrommarketing just should have looked out for all of our overseas citizens and not just those who could afford the $10k or more cost of getting g home and quarantine. As usual he only looked after the top end of town and hopefully he will get punished severely for this and his many other incompetence at the looming election.
What a load of claptrap.QR codes keep us safer and reduce the spread of disease. They are entirely proportionate to the risk and everyone wants them gone whe it is safe to do so
And nobody is punished for a political view. They might suffer by their own choice as a consequence of endangering others health That isn't a political opinion.
Good. I don't want my health risked by idiots and it is entirely fair that there are consequences that they choose to accept for said stupidity.
Part of any government's function is to protect society in general and individuals from themselves. Speeding, seatbelt and crash helmet laws for example. You can't drive a taxi without a licence. You need to be suitably qualified to be a doctor and many other proffering. You need to get a working g with children certificate for many occupation to make sure you aren't a kidding fiddler etc etc. This is simply a neccesary public health measure.
No it isn't. Everyone wants restrictions gone if/when it is eventually safe to do so.
We tried that in NSW. It isn't going well. 1k to 25k cases per day in about a week or so. Hospitals soon to be overwhelmed. Despite the removal of most restriction the economy is going backwards dadtvas nobodybis now confident to socialise. The city centre is a ghost town at nights/weekend and previously packed local pubs have tumbleweeds rolling through.
So much good work undone so fast by our new religious right nutter of a state premier.
The bolded part is going to be interesting (in a morbid sense) to see - NSW effectively only has immunity via vaccination, with no immunity from past infection. So it may indicate if the vaccines are robust enough. Having said that, NSW lacks the 'advantage' of selection bias that other countries unfortunately have regarding deaths. I have quite a bit of family in Aus (Sydney and Melbourne), so I'm hoping the vaccines provide sufficient immunity.
An update on how the NHS hospital system currently stands. Basically, covid admissions have doubled over the past week and for most of the country they're likely to keep rising for another couple of weeks. However, it's staff shortages, partly due to covid, that worry the hospitals most - even if total hospital beds in use for covid patients increases as expected.
Comparing quarantining to concentration camps
Governments are not stupid: they are fully aware of what they are doing and for whom they are working for.
The freedom of movement (here right to travel) is one of these human rights that should be non-negotiable.
A negative test and self-quarantine are reasonable measures.
Most people do not pay tax in order to fund what you call proper quarantine (i.e. isolation/covid/concentration camp).
Unsubstantiated claims. The current worldwide situation simply shows that public health policies are a failure.
People who refuse to comply with covid measures are mostly driven by political beliefs. Public policies are a mix of science (17.5%) and politics (82.5%)
Well, the reality is that vaccinated people can transmit the virus...
I agree that you can't drive a taxi and work in this business without a driving license, but surely it is possible to work in any industry without being vaccinated?
People have no power in our societies due to simple cowardice and inability to exert any form of critical thinking.
The current state of affairs is quite obvious. Would you like me to elaborate on a specific topic?
I feel like with the new variant it’s pointless talking about QR codes because unless you take LFT every single day you’re still a risk.
at the moment every time you interact with other people, no matter how short that time is, you’re at risk
at the moment every time you interact with other people, no matter how short that time is, you’re at risk
Whilst it’s not great, it’s worth noting the “double rate” appears to be around 10 days rather than 2, and that includes the Christmas period.
It will be amazing if England get through this without any proper restrictions. It’s like the government totally fluked their way toward herd immunity after probably the most inept first year of everyone.
Most right wing governments are working to enrich themselves and their mates at the top end of town irrespective of there being a pandemic or not, which is why governments led by #scottyfrommarketing and Bojo want restrictions to go away. It is bad for business and only irrelevant poor people pay/die in the main.
Yet I get a more tin foil hat vibe from your post.
Why? You can't drive or fly without a licence and that restrictions your movement. There are over 30 notifiable diseases and far more notifiable causative agents with various restrictions attached. This is normal, reasonable and proportionate.
Are you familiar with representative government?
Concentration camp? That is an idiotic assertion. Nice concentration camp with TV, resort food, microwave, mini-bar and Netflix and release after 14 days or less. Plus you have a choice to enter or not enter quarantine
Rubbish. You just don't understand how they have worked or choose not to.
They might think or pretend they do but they are mainly driven by being stupid.
Well done you have won covidiot bingo. The vast majority of hugely effective vaccines aren't sterilising. Yet strangely they massively reduce illness, serious illness and death. Go figure.
You usually need a taxi licence and a driving licence for what it is worth.
It is possible to kill people with impunity if it isn't against the law. You can have sex with minors if it isn't against the law. Your point is that if there wasn't a law against something then it wouldn't be illegal. Which is a rather odd thing to say.
Glad you accept the blame.
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What kind of lockdown are you in? We had a hard one for three weeks until mid December and it did help to bring down the incidence rate by a large number.
Freedom ends where it endangers the freedom of others.
Where are you based?
Then prepare to be amazed.
@Wibble
I do not like to repeat myself, and our views are diametrically opposed. We also do not share the same values so no need to further interact.
I am what you would call an idiot because I can't find any good reason to justify this type of situation.
I do not like to repeat myself, and our views are diametrically opposed. We also do not share the same values so no need to further interact.
I am what you would call an idiot because I can't find any good reason to justify this type of situation.
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I consider myself fairly left wing but honestly I think this superiority complex when it comes to purity of intent that is a major contributory factor behind the fact parties of the left, at least in this country, struggle at elections.
I disagree with much of what they do but being left wing really isn’t any superior morally than being right wing and I think the left struggling to understand that has led more often to right wing govts being, sadly, more electable
I don’t think the left understands how unattractive this mindset is beyond the constituency of those already on side. I know is OT but the right will continue to benefit electorally while the left simply assumes everyone else also agrees they’re naturally morally superior