SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

11101 said:
Do you think so?

My experience is the opposite. Almost everybody I know who is unvaxxed is on Facebook posting memes and will go off on one about it all at the drop of a hat. The ones who were just a little unsure are now satisfied after x billion doses it's not going to kill them and have rolled their sleeve up. That's why I'm more than happy to see Europe ratcheting up the pressure on people to get the vaccine.
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People need to stop going on Facebook it's gone to the dogs
 
McUnited said:
Okay, I agree those with diabetes and high blood pressure, or any other pre-existing medical condition should have thought more carefully about getting the vaccine to protect themselves. The emphasis being on protecting themselves. But the push to vaccinate everyone, from the age of 5 upwards now it seems, is, in my opinion, incoherent.
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Its not only about that, at all.

Thorough studies have documented the risk of spread of the Delta variant from vaccinated people become reduced by around 63% vs unvaccinated people. But here's the kicker: The actual percentage is way higher, since vaccinated people become infected at a significantly lower percentile than unvaccinated people.

The emphasis on the vaccination program is to protect both yourself, but by proxy others because of the cascade effect it has on your contagious potential.

But more importantly, the people telling us to get vaccinated are the people who work in the medical sector. Why are there any good reasons to pretend we don't have to listen to them when they tell us why this is helpful? Do you offer tips to the airplane pilot when there's turbulence or do you assume the pilot know what he's doing? Why isnt the same luxury being afforded to the nations health officials when they give instructions?
 
Tom Cato said:
Do you offer tips to the airplane pilot when there's turbulence or do you assume the pilot know what he's doing? Why isnt the same luxury being afforded to the nations health officials when they give instructions?
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Firstly, you're doing great work on this the thread, I wish I had your patience.

Secondly, if the last 5 years have taught me anything its that there is a large swathe of the population who very much believe they're just as entitled to their opinion on operating an airplane as a trained pilot, and would more than willingly share that opinion.

The societal loss of shame and rise of entitled ignorance is the real underpinning theme of our times.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
I would venture to say that means your body is very clued in on what the virus is and this means you are at a much lower risk of negative outcomes if you happen to become infected.
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Thats something, thanks! As omicron has arrived on our shores I'm sure it'll be put to the test!
 
Tom Cato said:
Its not only about that, at all.

Thorough studies have documented the risk of spread of the Delta variant from vaccinated people become reduced by around 63% vs unvaccinated people. But here's the kicker: The actual percentage is way higher, since vaccinated people become infected at a significantly lower percentile than unvaccinated people.

The emphasis on the vaccination program is to protect both yourself, but by proxy others because of the cascade effect it has on your contagious potential.

But more importantly, the people telling us to get vaccinated are the people who work in the medical sector. Why are there any good reasons to pretend we don't have to listen to them when they tell us why this is helpful? Do you offer tips to the airplane pilot when there's turbulence or do you assume the pilot know what he's doing? Why isnt the same luxury being afforded to the nations health officials when they give instructions?
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The way that these new variants have eroded the efficacy of vaccines at presenting transmission has moved the goalposts a bit. You could certainly argue that the emphasis now is vaccination to protect the individual, rather than for the greater good.

However, that argument ignores another important consequence of choosing not to get vaccinated. When individuals get unnecessarily much sicker than they would otherwise they take away healthcare resources from everyone else. From here on in it will be ITU occupation that dictates how normal a life everybody can live. And the more people who choose not to get vaccinated the more ITU beds will be occupied with covid patients.
 
Solius said:
FGpJslJXwAMyQFe


Almost as if there's some correlation.
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I imagine it'll be wealth, type of jobs (ability to WFH for example), as well as education and many more.
 
CanadianUtd said:
pfizer and other such companies have admitted saying in their own documents, referring to their vaccines as “experimental”. If that makes me a tinfoil then it makes them also. There’s a reason why they’re not FDA approved and still being used under the label of emergency use. But again if you want to title me as something, I’m not stopping you.
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You posted a lot of text but I'm trying to do some work today so Ill just write a quick comment to this snippet since its a easy one to answer for you.

I know that the "anti-vaccine" lobby in the US in particular harps a lot on the word "experimental/emergency". Its a bit like when creationists harp on the word "theory" when discussing science. Its just words. You need to know what they refer to before you can form an opinion that is a correct opinion.

When refering to the Covid-19 vaccines as "experimental", that is not what that actually means. There is nothing experimental about them. The SARS CoV-2 vaccinations are the most heavily tested vaccines in human history. The sheer scale of the effort undergone by the global medical community to achieve a working vaccine in the timescale it did is nothing sort of remarkable and rank high in humanitys top achievements.

The US FDA approved the covid-19 vaccines under a EUA authorization at the beginning of the pandemic due to the severity and emergency status of the pandemic. For a vaccine to be granted a EUA there needs to be well documented safety data that meets a long list of thresholds. In short: The vaccine is deemed safe for humans.

The process to be granted full FDA approval is a bit more complex but it involves more formal proceedings such as a New Drug Application (NDA) and the careful monitoring of the FDA MedWatch program that among other things monitor the VAERS.

When granted a emergency approval the vaccine will already need to have undergone all clinical study steps that are associated with a full development cycle. The word "emergency" in this case is bureaucratic talk for "This meets the criteria now hurry up".

The vaccines are not experimental. They certainly were when they were being developed, that is what hte clinical trial stages are for.

The FDA approved the Pfizer vaccine for ful FDA approval in August of 2021. It has since received full FDA approval in younger children and teenagers in October of 2021.

Now that the information you have thought was correct has received an update, will you change your opinion?

To date more than 8.5 billion covid-19 shots have been administered globally. Will 9 billion doses be enough of a sample size to form a opinion regarding vaccine safety?
 
Tom Cato said:
You posted a lot of text but I'm trying to do some work today so Ill just write a quick comment to this snippet since its a easy one to answer for you.

I know that the "anti-vaccine" lobby in the US in particular harps a lot on the word "experimental/emergency". Its a bit like when creationists harp on the word "theory" when discussing science. Its just words. You need to know what they refer to before you can form an opinion that is a correct opinion.

When refering to the Covid-19 vaccines as "experimental", that is not what that actually means. There is nothing experimental about them. The SARS CoV-2 vaccinations are the most heavily tested vaccines in human history. The sheer scale of the effort undergone by the global medical community to achieve a working vaccine in the timescale it did is nothing sort of remarkable and rank high in humanitys top achievements.

The US FDA approved the covid-19 vaccines under a EUA authorization at the beginning of the pandemic due to the severity and emergency status of the pandemic. For a vaccine to be granted a EUA there needs to be well documented safety data that meets a long list of thresholds. In short: The vaccine is deemed safe for humans.

The process to be granted full FDA approval is a bit more complex but it involves more formal proceedings such as a New Drug Application (NDA) and the careful monitoring of the FDA MedWatch program that among other things monitor the VAERS.

When granted a emergency approval the vaccine will already need to have undergone all clinical study steps that are associated with a full development cycle. The word "emergency" in this case is bureaucratic talk for "This meets the criteria now hurry up".

The vaccines are not experimental. They certainly were when they were being developed, that is what hte clinical trial stages are for.

The FDA approved the Pfizer vaccine for ful FDA approval in August of 2021. It has since received full FDA approval in younger children and teenagers in October of 2021.

Now that the information you have thought was correct has received an update, will you change your opinion?

To date more than 8.5 billion covid-19 shots have been administered globally. Will 9 billion doses be enough of a sample size to form a opinion regarding vaccine safety?
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No it wouldn't, because some people are concerned about the long-term effects.
 
McUnited said:
No it wouldn't, because some people are concerned about the long-term effects.
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How long is acceptable to wait for 'long-term effects'?

I'm a bit concerned the long term effect of birth is death but I'm waiting for results on that one.
 
Solius said:
How long is acceptable to wait for 'long-term effects'?

I'm a bit concerned the long term effect of birth is death but I'm waiting for results on that one.
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A guy I work with had a terrible time persuading his mother to get vaccinated. She told him she was worried about the potential for long term side effects she’d read about on Facebook. She was 89 years old.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
A guy I work with had a terrible time persuading his mother to get vaccinated. She told him she was worried about the potential for long term side effects she’d read about on Facebook. She was 89 years old.
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:lol: that's a definite departure from any old irish people I know who's general attitude seemed to be "sure feck it, i'll be dead soon anyway, g'wan so!"
 
Solius said:
How long is acceptable to wait for 'long-term effects'?

I'm a bit concerned the long term effect of birth is death but I'm waiting for results on that one.
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Ha ha. :lol:

To be fair though, the Pandemrix jab narcolepsy side effect took about two years for them to notice it I think? It was actually found after they stopped mass vaccination.

We do have about 8 billion jabs now though so a little more data on this one you’d imagine :p and as mentioned in that article “monitoring of side effects is far better today”.
 
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McUnited said:
No it wouldn't, because some people are concerned about the long-term effects.
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Ok sure, I can understand that people have concernes over the unknown. Please let me try to appease your concerns.

We're primarily using the pfizer/moderna vaccines now which contain mRNA technology.

Messenger RNA was discovered in the 1960s, researched with cell delivery in the 1970s and underwent research to develop into a flu vaccination in the 1990s. a vaccine using mRNA technology was approved for human clinical trials in 2013 for a rabies vaccine.

The challenge of mRNA is how do you make the lipid nanoparticles that work as a exterior shell work with the mRNA which translates into the appropriates spike protein that triggers the immune response. The reason for the interim between testing and finally a working vaccine relies a lot on funding. When Covid hit the money available to find a working vaccine was near endless, and the bureaucratic process was speedlined and prioritized over absolutely everything else. A simple analogy would be to carry a full glass of water over a mountain, but you can't spill a drop. Normally you want to walk safe. Now with new shoes you could run at full tilt, but you still arrive at the other end with all your water in the glass. If its all there, the vaccine gets approved. Anything missing? Go back to the lake for a new glass.

No steps were cut, but the full weight of everything was available to them. Resources, finances, equipment and personel.

Side effects from vaccinations are indcredibly rare. (Worst case documented in 60 years is around 120 in 1 million or so if im not mistaken) Most people who develop any symptom at all after a vaccine see symptoms within the first two months, the vast majority of those again within the first few days. Covid-19 however has a list of potential long term side effects that incluce what we saw in patients with SARS: permanent lung scarring, Autoimmune conditions, chestpain, fatigue and tiredness/shortness of breath. I've seen interviews with 20 year olds in Norwegian newspapers who say they had Covid earlier in the year before they got vaccinated and now can't even get up a set of stairs without taking a break.

If we go back as far as the 1960s since the Polio vaccination program, there are no long term side effects from vaccinations. Not one.

mRNA has been used in trials for influenza, Zika virus, rabies and even cancer treatment. Its so incredibly well documented and tested.

Those who have concerns about the long term side effects of the covid vaccine generally don't have concerns based on medical data, but public opinion of those who are for one reason or another against getting vaccinated, period. For a reason that's summarized quickly as "Because I don't want to".

Its a ever moving goalpost that at the first stage of the vaccination program was moved to the corner flag at Old Trafford, but now it's used as a waypoint for rowers outside of Madagascar.
 
The whole fear of side-effects (of the vaccine) argument crumbles the second you compare the rates of those same side-effects with covid complications. So you have people avoiding a vaccine for fear of myocarditis, when the odds of getting that same condition is 1,000xs higher with covid.

All I hope is that future humans look back on this anti-vaxx movement as a bizarre blip more representative of the Brext/Trump cultural phoneomon than any general medical trend.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Ha ha. :lol:

To be fair though, the Pandemrix jab narcolepsy side effect took about two years for them to notice it I think? It was actually found after they stopped mass vaccination.

We do have about 8 billion jabs now though so a little more data on this one you’d imagine :p and as mentioned in that article “monitoring of side effects is far better today”.
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Yeah, vaccine sceptics often conflate ‘long term side effects” with “side effects that take a long time to uncover”.

The former really is incredibly rare. None discovered to date with any other vaccine.

The latter is a function of rarity. The rarer the side effect the more people you need to treat to confirm the safety signal. Which usually takes a long time. However this has been massively accelerated with the covid vaccines, thanks to literally billions of doses already administered. We’ve already uncovered all of the important yet rare side effects related to these vaccines.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Ha ha. :lol:

To be fair though, the Pandemrix jab narcolepsy side effect took about two years for them to notice it I think? It was actually found after they stopped mass vaccination.

We do have about 8 billion jabs now though so a little more data on this one you’d imagine :p and as mentioned in that article “monitoring of side effects is far better today”.
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In the case of Pandermix it wasn't about an effect that took a long time to be seen, though narcolepsy can take months to diagnose. It was an effect that increased the narcolepsy rate amongst those who took it from around 1:100,000 people/year to 1:50,000 people/year.

That's the kind of side-effect that no vaccine trial - even the very big ones used for the covid vaccines that covered tens of thousands of people, across multiple age-groups and ethnicities - is capable of seeing, however long it runs for. That would be true if the trial ran for 3 months, 3 years or 3 decades. It's an adverse reaction that you see only once the vaccine has gone into mass use and millions of doses have been used.

That's where surveillance across millions of doses, monitored by dozens of countries and thousands of doctors and scientists is what really matters. By this point in their history, the major vaccines are among the most tested vaccines ever.
 
Shared on fb and liked by someone I follow:

"
When people think its a put down when they say oh were do you get your info Facebook, no actually these guys below!!

Here's a list of various doctors trying to bring you the truth at great cost to themselves. Search for them on uncensored search engines and platforms such as Duck Duck Go, Telegram, Bitchute, Rumble and Odysee.

There are two Nobel Peace Prize winners and one nominee on this list.

Dr. Michael Yeadon (Former Pfizer VP)
Dr. Robert Malone (mRNA inventor)
Dr. Peter McCullough (most published on CV)
Dr. Vladimir Zelenko (Nobel PP Nominee)
Dr. Kary Mullis (PCR inventor/Nobel PP winner)
Dr. Rima Laibow
Dr. Naomi Wolf
Dr. David Martin
Dr. Luc Montainger
Dr. Roger Hodkinson
Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche
Dr. Sherri Tenpenny
Dr. Judy Mitkovitz
Dr. Carrie Madej
Dr. Vernon Coleman
Dr. Ben Tapper
Dr. Michael Lake
Dr. Christiane Northrop
Dr. Simone Gold
Dr. Sean Brooks
Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai
Dr. Jane Ruby
Dr. Ryan Cole
Dr. Kevin Stillwagon
Dr. Afzal Niaz
Dr. Rashid A.Buttar
Dr. Paul Thomas
Dr. Vanessa Passov
Dr. Jessica Rose
Dr. Christopher Rake
Dr. Charles Hoffe
Dr. Mark Mcdonald
Dr. Jeff Barke
Dr. Andrew Kaufman
Dr. Manuel Alonso
Dr. Amir Shahar
Dr. Patrick Phillips
Dr. Bryan Ardis
Dr. Franc Zalewski
Dr. Daniel Griffin
Dr. Zandra Botha
Dr. Rochagné Kilian
Dr. Joseph Mercola
Dr. James Lyons-Weiler
Dr. Henry Ealy
Dr. Jay Bhattacharya
Dr. Michael Palmer
Dr. Eddy Bettermann MD
Dr. Harvey Risch
Dr. Steven Hotze
Dr. Dan Stock
Dr. Sam Duby
Dr. Francis Christian
Dr. Chris Milburn
Dr. John Carpay
Dr. Richard Fleming
Dr. Gina Gold
Dr. Kevin Corbett
Dr. Michael Mcdowell
Dr. John Witcher
Dr. Jim Meehan
Dr. Chris Shaw
Dr. Anne McCloskey
Dr. Reiner Fuellmich
Dr. Christiana Parks
Dr. Robert Young
Dr. Amandha Vollmer
Dr. Judy Wilyman
Dr. Michael McConville
Dr. Stella Immanuel
Dr. James Nellenschwander
Dr. Julie Ponesse
Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi
Dr. Paul Cottrell
Dr. Lee Merritt
Dr. Rochagne Killian
Dr. Larry Palevsky
Dr. Natalia Prego Cancelo
Dr. Hilde de Smet
Dr. Elizabeth Evans
Dr. Brian Hooker
Dr. Joel Hirschhorn
Dr. R. Zac Cox
Dr. Mohammed Adil
Dr. Ralph ER Sundberg
Dr. Johan Denis
Dr. Daniel Cullum
Dr. Anne Fierlafijin
Dr. Kevin Corbett
Dr. Pior Rubis
Dr. Pascal Sacre
Dr. Nicole Delepine
Dr. Lorraine Day
Dr. Yoav Yehezkelli
Dr. Nour De San
Dr. Kelly Brogan
Dr. Hervé Seligmann
Dr. Annie Bukacek
Dr. Mark Brody
Dr. Steven LaTulippe
Dr. Mark Trozzi
Dr. Scott Jensen
Dr. Byram W. Bridle
Dr. Andrew Wakefield
Dr. Larry Palevsky
Dr. Tom Cowan
Dr. Dan Erickson
Dr. James Todaro
Dr. Joe Lapado
Dr. Richard Bartlett
Dr. Ben Edwards
Dr. Pierre Kory
Dr. Heather Gessling
Dr. Bryan Tyson
Dr. Richard Urso
Dr. John Littell
Dr. Scott Jensen
Dr. Ben Carson
Dr. Peter Schirmacher
Dr. Zandra Botha
Dr. Pamela Popper
Dr. Tom Barnett
Dr. Theresa Long
Dr. Nancy Burks
Dr. Russel Blaylock
Dr. Shiv Chopra
Dr. Suzanne Humphries
Dr. Tori Bark
Dr. Meryl Nass
Dr. Raymond Obamsawin
Dr. Ghislaine Lanctot
Dr. Robert Rowen
Dr. David Ayoub
Dr. Boyd Hailey
Dr. Roby Mitchell
Dr. Ken Stoller
Dr. Mayer Eiesenstien
Dr. Frank Engley
Dr. David Davis
Dr. Tetyana Obukhanych
Dr. Harold Butram
Dr. Kelly Brogan
Dr. RC Tent
Dr. Rebecca Carley
Dr. Andrew Moulden
Dr. Jack Wolfson
Dr. Michael Elice
Dr. Terry Wahls
Dr. Paul Thomas
Dr. Stephanie Seneff
Dr. Richard Moskowitz
Dr. Jane Orient
Dr. Richard Deth
Dr. Lucija Tomljenovic
Dr. Chris Shaw
Dr. Susan McCreadie
Dr. May Ann Block
Dr. David Brownstein
Dr. Jayne Donegan
Dr. Troy Ross
Dr. Phillip Incao
Dr. Robert Mendelson
Dr. Theressa Deisher
Dr. Sam Eggertsen
Dr. Peter Doshi
Dr. Shankara Chetty
Dr. Elizabeth Eads
Dr. Kurt Malhom
Dr. Carolyn Bosack
Dr. Heiko Shoning
Dr. Aseem Malhotra
Dr. Patricia Lee
Dr. Daniel Nagase
Dr. Mobeen Syed
Dr. Bruce Patterson
Dr. Randi Juanta
Dr. Phillip McMillan
Dr. Peter Gotzche
Dr. Kurt Malholm
Dr. Sam Sigoloff
Dr. Suzanne Humphries
Dr. Ariyana Love
Dr. Pierre Gilbert
Dr. Nathan Thompson
Dr. Scott Youngblood
Dr. Peterson Pierre
Dr. Darell Wolfe
Dr. Mary Tally Bowden
Dr. Thomas Ynges
Dr. Guido Hofmann
Dr. Anne Mcclosky
Dr. James Grundvig
Dr. Amanda Vollmer
Dr. Kevin Stillwagon
Dr. Luis Miguel de Benito
Dr. Bruce Boros
Dr. Steven Gundry
Dr. Ray Page
Dr. Tess Lawrie
Dr. Andreas Noack
Dr. Mark Hobart
Dr. Peter Campbell
Dr. Peter Johnston
Dr. Eric Nepute
Dr. Bradley Campbell
Dr. Joseph Yi
Dr Robert Morse ND
Dr Piotr Witczak (biolog)
Dr Jerzy Jaskowski
Dr H.Czerniak
Dr. Anna Martynowska
Prof. Dolores Cahill
Prof. Retsif Levi
Prof. Maria Majewska- neurobiolog

Copied and pasted it and I don't see my GPS name on there but he did tell me its a political and economic problem not a health problem??"
 
jojojo said:
Just a word on how close we got to riding out Delta in the UK.



Hospitalisations were falling. Deaths were falling but more slowly. We got so close to making it through Christmas and into the flu season without it all falling apart.

Then at the start of November you start to see that first glimmer of Omicron kicking in and stalling progress in some agegoups, pushing them up in others.
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Omicron had nothing to do with the rise at the start of November.
 
Also add Dr Moe Lester and Dr Anita Dump to the list. They have been censored by the Marxist woke mob
 
massi83 said:
Omicron had nothing to do with the rise at the start of November.
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Sorry, typo - that should have said the start of December. I'll edit the post.

The autumn stats have tracked things like school halfterm and changes in the weather - plus big changes in mobility. Adult case rates were pretty static with the big swings taking place in school students, which tended to drag parent age people along behind them. Now it's on the rise starting from young adults (where case rates peaked in July then started falling) and presumably it will ripple out into other groups over the next couple of weeks.
 
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