SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Pogue Mahone said:
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Governments benefiting from the pandemic? Pull the other one.

The only industry you could argue is benefitting is the pharmaceutical one. And even then, only two or three companies. The rest of them are being screwed by their main customers (health services) having to divert all their resources to covid. There’s even give and take for the main vaccine providers. Pfizer’s raking in cash from the vaccine while losing cash from other areas. It’s only in the last few months that their share price exceeded what it was at the end of 2018.

Literally everyone would benefit if the pandemic stopped tomorrow.
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In terms of amount of influence and sway they've had over people's lives? There hasn't been anything like this since WWII in Western democracies. And yes, historically, once governments assume power and control it's by no means a given that these will be relinquished - especially when they themselves have a central role in defining the exact terms at which these controls can and should be relinquished.

There is absolutely nothing controversial about my above statement, nor am I arguing that this is what is currently happening everywhere. But I can guarantee you that there will be a number of governments right now loving the amount of power and control they're able to exert over their populations.

In regards to the industries taking advantage of the current situation, there are in fact many that have benefited from the natural advances and trends Covid and lockdowns have only sped up. Just look at how much more digitised our lives have become in the past 18 months/2 years as a result of this. Again, these are trends that would have probably naturally occurred but Covid has certainly sped this up and many companies/industries have benefited from it.

* I feel the need to qualify the above by underlining my position that I am in no way a covid conspiracist/anti-vaxxer/anything like that. I have completely supported lockdowns and will gladly accept shots into my arms at the earliest point recommended. This is more a prediction based on the assumption that, at some level, government's enjoy having as much control and sway over their populations lives, and that many (globally) will look to hang on to these powers even when we enter an endemic/Covid's impact is less devastating than it currently is.
 
Pexbo said:
Im not suggesting this is all a conspiracy of course, that’s just stupid but it’s also daft to say that individuals within governments haven’t been benefiting from this. Look at all the dodgy contracts handed out in the UK, they weren’t handed over without reward in the opposite direction.

In addition to that in the US, billionaire wealth grew by 70% during the pandemic.

So while I believe it’s real and I believe in scientists and their science, if we are being completely objective there are definitely motives for individuals in government to use the pandemic to their benefit.

I also think the UK government is using the pandemic to cripple and dismantle the NHS.
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Dodgy individuals will try to feather their own nest in any and every circumstance. This will obviously be a lot easier in a booming global economy than when the whole world is on its knees during a pandemic.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Dodgy individuals will try to feather their own nest in any and every circumstance. This will obviously be a lot easier in a booming global economy than when the whole world is on its knees during a pandemic.
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But during a situation where the promotion of one's own self-interest comes at the expense of many continually losing out/the gaps in wealth being expanded, it's arguably more felt during moments like this.
 
groovyalbert said:
But during a situation where the promotion of one's own self-interest comes at the expense of many continually losing out/the gaps in wealth being expanded, it's arguably more felt during moments like this.
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Sure. Another reason why the pandemic ending would benefit everyone.

Similar situation with governments. It’s obviously preferable to govern at a time when the citizens aren’t rioting in the streets over tough decisions you have to make
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Sure. Another reason why the pandemic ending would benefit everyone.

Similar situation with governments. It’s obviously preferable to govern at a time when the citizens aren’t rioting in the streets over tough decisions you have to make
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That probably depends on the government and who you ask. Also there are plenty of places where the option of rioting isn't there to begin with.
 
The focus on the specific area of reinfection as opposed to severity of infection, as seems to be where most focus seems to be on, seems maybe an indirect positive?

I understand reinfection is obviously an important factor but it seems to be unusually focused upon in the case of omicron out of apparent disappointment at the lack of other bad news.
 
stw2022 said:
The focus on the specific area of reinfection as opposed to severity of infection, as seems to be where most focus seems to be on, seems maybe an indirect positive?

I understand reinfection is obviously an important factor but it seems to be unusually focused upon in the case of omicron out of apparent disappointment at the lack of other bad news.
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Your last sentence is bizarre. Who is disappointed at the lack of other bad news? The scientists researching the risk of reinfection?

If you have any good news about omicron then share it. Please!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Your last sentence is bizarre. Who is disappointed at the lack of other bad news? The scientists researching the risk of reinfection?
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Scientists often caveat the data they publish. We know very little about it yet and what we do know comes from data from a country with very low vaccination rates, particularly amongst the young who this variant primarily appears to be skewing towards. I've never seen a thread or offering by any expert that doesn't touch upon some, all or alternative reasons why we can't jump to conclusions at all even with the data we have at the moment simply because we have next to nothing. That's what scientists do. What they don't do is present isolated pieces of the data and say 'Shit, this doesn't look good'.
 
stw2022 said:
Scientists often caveat the data they publish. We know very little about it yet and what we do know comes from data from a country with very low vaccination rates, particularly amongst the young who this variant primarily appears to be skewing towards. I've never seen a thread or offering by any expert that doesn't touch upon some, all or alternative reasons why we can't jump to conclusions at all even with the data we have at the moment simply because we have next to nothing. That's what scientists do. What they don't do is present isolated pieces of the data and say 'Shit, this doesn't look good'.
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It was me that said “shit, this doesn’t look good”. Because, in my opinion, when a new variant has mutations that seem likely to cause it to evade prior immunity and subsequently real life data comes out which shows that it probably is evading prior immunity then shit, it doesn’t look good.

Obviously we all hope that maybe the immunity from vaccine is harder to evade but that seems unlikely, given there’s never been any kind of big advantage demonstrated by vaccine derived immunity over immunity from prior infection (other than the advantage of not potentially dying covid anyway!).

Anyway, other opinions are available. If you have one, please share it. That’s how discussion forums work. But accusing me/anyone else of sharing these data because we’re disappointed by “the lack of any other bad news” is just weird.
 
Sorry but I just find this thread bizarre at times. High infection rates mean govt incompetence but only when applied to the UK, when cases rise elsewhere it's nobody's fault. When it rises here it's because the people and our representatives are feckless. Vaccinations are good but restrictions are even better, except restrictions on those who choose not to get vaccinated - they're awful, apparently. In the meantime let's find Tweets that skew towards what we want to hear whether it be overwhelmingly positive or negative.

You can almost see when prominent Twitter experts go in and out of fashion with certain posters depending if their latest Tweets are sufficiently cheerful or otherwise. It's the same on Twitter itself, you see a RT on your timeline and can see immediately by who's retweeting it if the opinion will be: 'Looking good based on these numbers' or 'feck, get the corned beef tins in'. Like people's choice of newspapers, people only tend to spread/retweet information that tells them what they want to hear. And nobody from either camp wants to here 'Far too early to know very much', so they jump on what little they do know with:
'Huzzah! Mild! Christmas saved' or the opposite.
 
stw2022 said:
The focus on the specific area of reinfection as opposed to severity of infection, as seems to be where most focus seems to be on, seems maybe an indirect positive?

I understand reinfection is obviously an important factor but it seems to be unusually focused upon in the case of omicron out of apparent disappointment at the lack of other bad news.
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The focus is on reinfection is because it’s a new kind of threat and far more relevant now, given the volume of past infections and vaccination, than it was before. The severity of the disease is reflected in the hospitalisation figures, which in this isolated case appear to be about as bad as it was before, with obvious caveats.
 
stw2022 said:
Sorry but I just find this thread bizarre at times. High infection rates mean govt incompetence but only when applied to the UK, when cases rise elsewhere it's nobody's fault. When it rises here it's because the people and our representatives are feckless. Vaccinations are good but restrictions are even better, except restrictions on those who choose not to get vaccinated - they're awful, apparently. In the meantime let's find Tweets that skew towards what we want to hear whether it be overwhelmingly positive or negative.

You can almost see when prominent Twitter experts go in and out of fashion with certain posters depending if their latest Tweets are sufficiently cheerful or otherwise. It's the same on Twitter itself, you see a RT on your timeline and can see immediately by who's retweeting it if the opinion will be: 'Looking good based on these numbers' or 'feck, get the corned beef tins in'. Like people's choice of newspapers, people only tend to spread/retweet information that tells them what they want to hear. And nobody from either camp wants to here 'Far too early to know very much', so they jump on what little they do know with:
'Huzzah! Mild! Christmas saved' or the opposite.
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If you have a problem with Twitter, avoid it. It’s a cess pool. On every topic. But don’t bring your Twitter hang-ups here where the discussion is (in general) fairly balanced. I can 100% assure you that if/when I see any good news coming out of South Africa I will share it. And I’m kind of insulted that you imply I wouldn’t.
 
F-Red said:
Shit if it's a low % vaccinated population right? Gauteng only has 38.78% of their population vaccinated according to their latest data, it's still a big unknown of it's impact on high % rate vaccinated nations.
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Yes but most of the population has had Covid before. So if this variant evades past infection but not vaccinated individuals, vaccine mandates may be on the cards.

I wouldn’t place too much reliance on Gauteng hospital numbers just yet. There may be a bit of a backlog (same with deaths). Give it a few more days.
 
F-Red said:
Shit if it's a low % vaccinated population right? Gauteng only has 38.78% of their population vaccinated according to their latest data, it's still a big unknown of it's impact on high % rate vaccinated nations.
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Yeah. And we’re not going to know for a while what will happen in a vaccinated population. But it takes a fair bit of optimism to believe that vaccination provides significantly better protection than prior infection. When all available evidence (and logic based on how they work) has the level of protection as fairly similar, at best.

At this stage I’m just hoping that maybe it’s because the prior infection was very long ago in everyone getting reinfected. And everyone with more recent infection does have some level of protection. Feck it, though. We’ve come a long way from the early months of the pandemic when reinfection was so rare that each individual case got written up :(
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah. And we’re not going to know for a while what will happen in a vaccinated population. But it takes a fair bit of optimism to believe that vaccination provides significantly better protection than prior infection. When all available evidence (and logic based on how they work) has the level of protection as fairly similar, at best.

At this stage I’m just hoping that maybe it’s because the prior infection was very long ago in everyone getting reinfected. And everyone with more recent infection does have some level of protection. Feck it, though. We’ve come a long way from the early months of the pandemic when reinfection was so rare that each individual case got written up :(
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Yep, still some questions to be answered, however not all immunity is the same according to JB-M. Which is why that, plus the low vaccinated population as our only source of data, puts me still as a glass half full guy.


 
F-Red said:
Yep, still some questions to be answered, however not all immunity is the same according to JB-M. Which is why that, plus the low vaccinated population as our only source of data, puts me still as a glass half full guy.


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I hope there’s something to what he’s saying. It goes over my head though. To my simple mind a vaccine which generates an immune response to the spike protein only will be more vulnerable to immune evasion by a vaccine with a heavily mutated spike protein like omicron (seems to be the most heavily mutated section). When you’re infected by the virus you have the potential to develop antibodies to all the other bits of the virus, other than the spike protein.

Anyhoo. Optimism is good. Thanks for sharing those tweets. Fingers crossed.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
But it takes a fair bit of optimism to believe that vaccination provides significantly better protection than prior infection. When all available evidence (and logic based on how they work) has the level of protection as fairly similar, at best.
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Most vaccines provide a more consistent immune response than past infection.

This study found that mRNA vaccines are 5 times better at preventing hospitalisation from covid in comparison to past infections.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...rotect-better-than-infection-induced-immunity
 
Looks like boosters may be really important, not just as a top-up but as a genuine third dose. The report from the "mix and match" booster clinical trial led to the UK selecting Pfizer and Moderna as boosters:


I've not read it properly yet and the implications/interpretation of the technical stuff is way beyond my pay grade anyway. However I do know it says you get more antibodies, more varied antibodies and the T cells are really classy looking.

Or the press versions here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59489988

And
 
jojojo said:
Looks like boosters may be really important, not just as a top-up but as a genuine third dose. The report from the "mix and match" booster clinical trial led to the UK selecting Pfizer and Moderna as boosters:


I've not read it properly yet and the implications/interpretation of the technical stuff is way beyond my pay grade anyway. However I do know it says you get more antibodies, more varied antibodies and the T cells are really classy looking.

Or the press versions here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59489988

And
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just had my booster this week.... 2x AZ and now 1x Pfizer. Only reaction to the mix was a killer sore arm and a strangle compulsion to install Windows 11 on all my PC's ;)

But seriously, i help to look after my older mum after my dad passed away and my brother has had chronic asthma since 2 years old. As long as it's safe, i'll keep taking shots to protect them. Thankfully they also feel the same.
 
WPMUFC said:
just had my booster this week.... 2x AZ and now 1x Pfizer. Only reaction to the mix was a killer sore arm and a strangle compulsion to install Windows 11 on all my PC's ;)

But seriously, i help to look after my older mum after my dad passed away and my Brother has had chronic asthma since 2 years old. As long as it's safe, i'll keep taking shots to protect them. Thankfully they also feel the same.
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I was just about to go through the indignity of replying to my own post (by linking to a proper scientist doing a quick summary for cheats) however you've spared me that :lol:

You'll be pleased to hear that 2xAZ + Pfizer gives you (and your family) great protection.



Enthusiasts should read the Twitter thread, it's a nice explainer.
 
Just to say, on the booster issue generally - no one knows how this impacts Omicron as yet. The results from the trial are impressive though and suggest that the booster isn't just a top-up, it triggers an improved immune response - which is why the time of the JCVI about who needs it and when has changed quite so dramatically in the last few weeks.

The booster clinical trial, this time from the perspective of one of the clinician scientists who ran it.
 
My booster is in six days, likely to be Pfizer as I've had 2 x AZ. I'm in the UK. If I'm offered another vax (eg Moderna) should I still take it or say no thanks and wait for the big P?
 
Dumbstar said:
My booster is in six days, likely to be Pfizer as I've had 2 x AZ. I'm in the UK. If I'm offered another vax (eg Moderna) should I still take it or say no thanks and wait for the big P?
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My booster was Moderna, personally I wouldn’t be too concerned as both seem to yield good results on first and second jabs.
 
Just saw that WHO says there is no registered deaths tied to the omicron-virus.
Still early, I know, but together with the info that all who’s infected/propaply infected with it in Norway have mild symptoms only, that’s a cause for cautious optimism, right?
 
Bratt said:
Just saw that WHO says there is no registered deaths tied to the omicron-virus.
Still early, I know, but together with the info that all who’s infected/propaply infected with it in Norway have mild symptoms only, that’s a cause for cautious optimism, right?
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How long was it before a death was registered with the first delta case by comparison?
 
Is this new omnicron variant an evolution of the original SA variant (beta?)
 
jojojo said:
Just to say, on the booster issue generally - no one knows how this impacts Omicron as yet. The results from the trial are impressive though and suggest that the booster isn't just a top-up, it triggers an improved immune response - which is why the time of the JCVI about who needs it and when has changed quite so dramatically in the last few weeks.

The booster clinical trial, this time from the perspective of one of the clinician scientists who ran it.
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Increasing evidence that Moderna dose is higher than necessary. If they could rush through a license for half dose booster that would be great news for vaccine availability all over the world.
 
Dumbstar said:
My booster is in six days, likely to be Pfizer as I've had 2 x AZ. I'm in the UK. If I'm offered another vax (eg Moderna) should I still take it or say no thanks and wait for the big P?
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Either are fine. Moderna is statistically better in the trial which the UK boosters are based on, but there's no mention on whether that was a full dose or a half dose (which I believe is what is offered in the booster program). The half dose is due to it being effectively a double does of MRNA compared to Phizer.

Covid: Pfizer and Moderna jabs give best overall boost, UK trial finds - BBC News
 
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