First impressions
- it suggests that 4 people die for every 100,000 people which is way higher than any actual database has suggested. So, firstly the vaccine risk is likely overstated.
- then they suggest those 4 deaths might save around 6 lives in a group of 100,000 people. if you look at the UK you'll see that around 200 people have died per 100,000 (across the whole population) in the past year and we've only kept it that low in the past by lockdowns. We're now mostly dependant on the vaccines to avoid adding thousands more.
Even if you accept their vaccine fatal reactions case rate (which I don't) then I'd suggest you would also need to accept that they were looking at a low case rate environment - not the one that occurs when restrictions are lifted and the population is unvaccinated.
My impression was little bit different. I understood the authors were more concerned about vaccinating youngsters as the risk profile obviously changes a lot with this virus.
This means the population is quite vaccinated already like the UK with the higher risk groups already covered. Their advice seemed to be let's slow down the rush to risk kids with a vaccine that does have severe reactions in that group while the virus is much less potent.
He is. And he continues to have the freedom to post stupid stuff. In multiple threads. The only proviso being the freedom of other people to call the stuff he posts stupid. Freedom of speech working exactly as it should. Great, right?
Man-made climate change is not proven but that does not stop your government spending billions of money 'stopping' it or whatever they think they're doing.
Its absolutely proven. The evidence is completely overwhelming. I know this is off topic but in this you are completely and utterly wrong. Horribly so.
The latest Rogan podcast is all about it, i haven't looked into it but the way the guy goes on about Ivermetcin it sounds far too good to be true it solves everything.
He's trying to paint a picture that it's not being used and ignored because there is no money to be made from it as its a generic drug that is no longer patented.
More Rogan nonsense. Ivermetcin is treatment for paracites. It is quite dangerous and only just being tested to see if it has benefits for Covid treatment. Even if it does prove to be useful and get FDA approval is will only help treat covid and not prevent it at all. That this is in any way linked by anyone to the need for vaccination is an anti-vaxxers wet dream.
Considering money and people I would say that is a very good bet. We are getting some very good data and peer reviewed analysis coming through now so I would expect some clearer answers soon. I'm glad we are trailing in the UK. A worrying peer reviewed study has come out today that says for every 3 lives saved by the vaccine 2 vaccine deaths are caused so there is no silver bullet. Someone alluded above we have to live with acceptable deaths and that includes from treatments as well as the virus it seems.
Tens of thousands of lives have been saved by the partial rollout in the UK alone and you are claiming that 66% as many have been killed by the vaccine?
This is utter nonsense and dangerous nonsense as well. Do not repeat such rubbish in the fututre.
It's not my logic but What expertise do you have over these scientists? I going to hazard a guess that the authors of this study are eminently more qualified that Massive Spanner off redcafe or anyone else on here for that matter. Also the peer review seems to have been accepted but like I said this is not my study.
It is MDPI. They are an open source publication who have little or no peer review of any sort and nothing that resembles the process that a reputable journal would accept. It is a business that gets payed by academics who can't get enough published by reputable peer reviewed primary literature in an attempt to boost their publication record often in an attempt to get tenure.
Beall remained critical of MDPI after removing the publisher from his list (of predatory journals) ; in December 2015 he wrote that "it is clear that MDPI sees peer review as merely a perfunctory step that publishers have to endure before publishing papers and accepting money from the authors" and that "it's clear that MDPI's peer review is managed by clueless clerical staff in China."
Might as well follow Trumps bleach plan by that standard. If a drug helps with the treatment of something it will get FDA (or whatever) approval and then be used to treat covid 19. Although vaccinating so it isn't much needed is a far better idea and an actual solution rather than a potential bandaid..
Man-made climate change is not proven but that does not stop your government spending billions of money 'stopping' it or whatever they think they're doing.
Yes it is and a long time ago no matter how much some people wish it wasn't.
I trust doctors, who use this drug (or not) with real patients. I distrust armchair experts, newspaper editors, social media 'fact checkers', and government spin doctors: dictating to us - doctors and sick people - what we're allowed to do.
Facts are: ivermectin is proven to work, in combination with other medicines to slow disease onset. Because it's off-patent no drug company funded a big trial. So published studies show small samples. Small samples, according to you, say it's unproven. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy to benefit big pharma.
The fact is that it isn't currently proven to work and/or be safe and we need to be doubly cautious because it was originally pushed by a South African anti-vax group. It has also become an anti vaxxers go to fake claim now that hydroxychloroquine has been (unsuprisingly) shown not to help with the same claims of mysterious powerful people supressing its use because ... erm ... money or something.
from that study - some red flags, some parts had me literally l o l
This is the 1st thing I noticed, it made me laugh because I imagined going to my prof and telling her "look, we got 10 samples, I'm choosing the single best one, just because" and imagining her reaction.
amazing. no reason given to inflate the number by 7 or 45 times! just, we chose the worst data we could find, and moving on now.
1st red flag:
"Received: 2 June 2021 / Revised: 19 June 2021 / Accepted: 21 June 2021"
peer-reviewed and accepted in 3 weeks!!!!! my papers take 6 months, and they aren't life or death issues for anyone.
So, what's this journal with its amazing turn around time? Quoting from here
So the short peer review time starts to make some sense. The 1st comment on the blog is a MDPI editor who says he wasn't given control over who reviews the paper, the journal has their pre-selected reviewers. Something people may not know is that journals charge authors for publication - and there are some notorious open-access journals which charge a lot (over $5k) and accept literally any garbage.
I've read one MDPI paper quite a lot for my work so I know it's not all garbage, but that 3 week turnaround on an obviously questionable study (the section I quoted above is enough for it to fail review), combined with the info in that blog post, suggests MDPI Vaccines might be on the sketchier side.
Because of the sketchiness of the journal, I decided to look at the authors.
First guy is a psychologist, and, wouldn't you know it, has a wikipedia page!
he is currently the director of the Institute of Transcultural Health Studies at Europa Universität Viadrina, Frankfurt/Oder,[2] and the director of the European Office of the Samueli Institute[3] which has funded his work since its inception in 2000. He is course leader of the first postgraduate training course for doctors in complementary medicine and cultural sciences.[4]. The commission by the state of Brandenburg for the review of Universities ("Hochschulstrukturkommission") which reviewed the University Viadrina where his IntraG, funded by Heel (corporation) is located came to the conclusion that this Institute should not be continued within the university
Walach has advocated the revision of the concept of evidence-based medicine (EBM), stressing the importance of a circular model of evidence in medical research and criticising problematic assumptions inherent in the hierarchical structure of current EBM. Harald Walach is member of the scientific advisory board of a blog called "CAM-Media Watch" which is run by a Journalist also paid mainly by Heel (corporation). The blog sees itself as "spin doctor" for press on the subject of Complementary and Alternative Medicine ("CAM") and has been reported to also smear a scientist critical of homeopathy.
So, a homoepathy guy who was kicked out of his own university, and does parapsychology. Claims to be employed in Poland and at a different German university, could find no record of it.
This is the 1st author --- and the most credible.
2nd author is a qualified astronomer with, as far as I can tell, no degree related to bio or health. Claims to be a radio-oncologist, because of the lackof any medical degree, I'm guessing he repairs X-ray machines. He is not listed as a member of the dept he claims to be from.
3rd author is " Independent Data and Pattern Scientist ". Cool.
This is from the same website as the authors cite: https://www.lareb.nl/pages/update-van-bijwerkingen
It includes a list of severe side effects that could be linked to the vaccine. Rough maths tells me there were about 62 such reactions in the country of Netherlands. 9M people have received the vaccine there. 62/9M = 0.7/100k vaccines, while they use a number of 16/100k, presumably because they rely on the zero-checks self-reporting system. Great standards, real commitment to learning the truth here.
@DFreshKing
But you know, this exercise is pointless, and this isn't the 1st time I've been involved in this nonsense. You will be back with more junk science from whatever blog or forum you frequent. I will be back to occasionally try and disprove it. I know deep down I'm not convincing you, it is obvious nothing can convince you. So this works mostly as an ego boost for me. It makes me feel good to be able to look into a paper that is so obviously flawed I can find massive mistakes in the 1st few lines I check. But nothing of value happened when I spent 30 mins going into the details of this nonsense and typing it out. You aren't changing your mind, and most people here have made up their minds one way or the other before my post.
There is an entire ecosystem, of which you are a part, which I really hate.
These are new, unproven vaccines. Like AstraZeneca, they may have serious or fatal side effects in some cases. You can read my posts here when I was scared about my mother's reaction to it. But because of people like you, finding trustworthy data is like finding a needle in a haystack. Ludicrously inflated numbers, the least credible scientists, a total lack of quality checks - if Pfizer and AstraZeneca wanted to design an opponent to make themselves look good, they couldn't come up with a better crowd than the anti-vax movement.
The problem with this organisation's journals isn't just that lots of rubbish gets published but that you can't trust any of it, even good stuff, due to the utterly flawed peer review method they use which is really just lip service. The point of proper peer review is that you can have some degree of confidence about all papers published by that particular journal.
Thank you @Sky1981, you keep yourself safe, too. It's scary out there. I bet you've seen the Bekasi video doing the rounds where folks are being treated on pickup trucks, while sitting down under the hot sun... they remind me of the scenes in Italy during the height of the first wave and India just a few months ago.
An old, overweight uncle with a history of heart disease caught the virus a few days ago but is showing very little to no symptoms due to being fully vaccinated, so please get vaccinated as soon as you possibly can. Vaccine works -- even Chinese-made ones.
Thank you @Sky1981, you keep yourself safe, too. It's scary out there. I bet you've seen the Bekasi video doing the rounds where folks are being treated on pickup trucks, while sitting down under the hot sun... they remind me of the scenes in Italy during the height of the first wave and India just a few months ago.
An old, overweight uncle with a history of heart disease caught the virus a few days ago but is showing very little to no symptoms due to being fully vaccinated, so please get vaccinated as soon as you possibly can. Vaccine works -- even Chinese-made ones.
Very true. I've known friends of my late father who flew to Los Angeles during the Eid break, taking advantage of the cheap flights, just to get a Pfizer/Moderna shot. My philosophy on this is take whichever brand is available to you first, so when I was offered with Sinovac around April it was a no-brainer. I took a Covid antibody test a few weeks ago to check if my body is responding well to it and it did.
In any case I'm relieved to hear that you're finally inoculated. Cianjur has Sinovac?
Very true. I've known friends of my late father who flew to Los Angeles during the Eid break, taking advantage of the cheap flights, just to get a Pfizer/Moderna shot. My philosophy on this is take whichever brand is available to you first, so when I was offered with Sinovac around April it was a no-brainer. I took a Covid antibody test a few weeks ago to check if my body is responding well to it and it did.
In any case I'm relieved to hear that you're finally inoculated. Cianjur has Sinovac?
It's probably just becuase you've got a recent history in this thread of bad takes. Your previous batch of posts here was going on about mRNA vaccines and blood clots.
Interesting graphic but this article does suggest the spike protein gets in the cells and is the reason for the risk of blood clot (which remember when it was first found was called fake news). Now they have a fix it has been accepted as a 'rare' risk.
Just watched some of the ‘freedom March’ live stream. Happened to tune in at the exact time a wild Karen was screaming at a couple out shopping, one of them wearing a mask. She spat on them too. Then a really obnoxious boomer lady pops up out of nowhere to stick the boot in verbally rather than offer any help. Loads of 5G and Great Reset signs etc, absolute horror show. They are all out crying on Twitter that their ‘huge crowd’ isn’t getting coverage on BBC etc
MPDI are such shit journals - their peer review process is a joke. I've reviewed for them and they just ignored both of the reviewer comments and published the article with no changes. They are a predatory publishing group and I wouldn't take on board anything you read there without a huge dose of skepticism. I don't review for them anymore, just the once.
Very true. I've known friends of my late father who flew to Los Angeles during the Eid break, taking advantage of the cheap flights, just to get a Pfizer/Moderna shot. My philosophy on this is take whichever brand is available to you first, so when I was offered with Sinovac around April it was a no-brainer. I took a Covid antibody test a few weeks ago to check if my body is responding well to it and it did.
In any case I'm relieved to hear that you're finally inoculated. Cianjur has Sinovac?
Simply put there is plenty of mRNA vaccine hesitancy out there even among the highly educated, as shown by the very high demand for Sinovac in Singapore where Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are readily available for free! One of these genius minds is my partner's younger sister who lives in Los Angeles. While not necessarily an antivaxxer, she was at one point contemplating a Jakarta trip for a few weeks or Mexico just to get Sinovac somehow, though in the end she settled with J&J.
For obvious reasons Sinovac wasn't my first choice (I'd have taken either Pfizer or Moderna given the option), but I did take it, did a Covid antibody test a month after my second jab and results show a high antibody level, similarly my partner, mother and sibling who all took Sinovac. I'm not sure if you're aware but there was a story doing the rounds last week about the Delta outbreak in a town called Kudus here, and among the 6,000+ healthcare workers jabbed with Sinovac, if I'm not mistaken only about 350 were infected and the majority of them asymptomatic. That is actually quite good numbers. So while Sinovac is not as good as Pfizer or Moderna, it obviously still works and some of the negative press around it is a bit unwarranted.
Simply put there is plenty of mRNA vaccine hesitancy out there even among the highly educated, as shown by the very high demand for Sinovac in Singapore where Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are readily available for free! One of these genius minds is my partner's younger sister who lives in Los Angeles. While not necessarily an antivaxxer, she was at one point contemplating a Jakarta trip for a few weeks or Mexico just to get Sinovac somehow, though in the end she settled with J&J.
For obvious reasons Sinovac wasn't my first choice (I'd have taken either Pfizer or Moderna given the option), but I did take it, did a Covid antibody test a month after my second jab and results show a high antibody level, similarly my partner, mother and sibling who all took Sinovac. I'm not sure if you're aware but there was a story doing the rounds last week about the Delta outbreak in a town called Kudus here, and among the 6,000+ healthcare workers jabbed with Sinovac, if I'm not mistaken only about 350 were infected and the majority of them asymptomatic. That is actually quite good numbers. So while Sinovac is not as good as Pfizer or Moderna, it obviously still works and some of the negative press around it is a bit unwarranted.
The effectiveness of a vaccine should be determined from clinical trials, which Sinovac has barely performed. This explains why they have yet to publish in a peer-reviewed journal, while other companies are actively investigating in the vaccine efficacy against various variants. Negative press is inevitable when you lack data to prove your claim.
Sinovac is better than nothing, and I understand why it is a no-brainer for less wealthy countries (especially under China's vaccine diplomacy). But when given the choice, Pfizer and Moderna are obviously better options especially for healthcare workers. It's frustrating to let a skeptical vaccine ruin the effort and endanger the healthcare system.
My country is one of the most advanced in terms of population vaccinated with both doses (mainly Sinovac and Pfizer), and the study of effectiveness finally came back. Although the Pfizer is a little bit more effective, SINOVAC is plenty good.
Results after 2 weeks of the second shot:
63.6% effective against symptoms.
87.3% effective against hospitalisation
90.0% effective against ICU admittance.
86.4% effective against death.
Don't buy the propaganda against the Chinese vaccines, they are good stuff.
Just take any vaccine available, unless you are young man, in which case try to avoid the Astra Zeneca.
Imo the world is underestimating the impact of ineffective vaccines and questionable diagnostic kits. They will remain as the major obstacles in ending this pandemic.
My country is one of the most advanced in terms of population vaccinated with both doses (mainly Sinovac and Pfizer), and the study of effectiveness finally came back. Although the Pfizer is a little bit more effective, SINOVAC is plenty good.
Results after 2 weeks of the second shot:
63.6% effective against symptoms.
87.3% effective against hospitalisation
90.0% effective against ICU admittance.
86.4% effective against death.
Don't buy the propaganda against the Chinese vaccines, they are good stuff.
Just take any vaccine available, unless you are young man, in which case try to avoid the Astra Zeneca.
Reasons not to take Sinovac:
1. Much much lower efficacy as compared to other vaccines (not "a little bit" as you claim)
2. Efficacy not proven in elderly
3. No data published in a peer-reviewed journal
4. Safety unknown
5. No follow-up study whatsoever such as effectiveness against variants
Like I said, Sinovac is better than nothing, and I understand why it is a no-brainer for less wealthy countries (especially under China's vaccine diplomacy). But when given the choice, Pfizer and Moderna are obviously better options.
@George Owen, I'd actually made sure I was right about the efficacy before I posted. If that's the only vaccine available, it's far better than having no vaccination of course, but AZ, Pfizer and Moderna are better.
The effectiveness of a vaccine should be determined from clinical trials, which Sinovac has barely performed. This explains why they have yet to publish in a peer-reviewed journal, while other companies are actively investigating in the vaccine efficacy against various variants. Negative press is inevitable when you lack data to prove your claim.
Sinovac is better than nothing, and I understand why it is a no-brainer for less wealthy countries (especially under China's vaccine diplomacy). But when given the choice, Pfizer and Moderna are obviously better options especially for healthcare workers. It's frustrating to let a skeptical vaccine ruin the effort and endanger the healthcare system.
I don't disagree with any of your points, but China's vaccine diplomacy is not the whole story when it comes to less wealthy countries. Like AZ often the main reason is that their vaccines can be stored in a standard fridge, unlike Pfizer or Moderna which requires extreme subzero storage. For a country like Indonesia this is a huge deal. In any case I'd like to know what @Sky1981 has to say about this as a fellow Indonesian.
As for negative press unfortunately it goes both ways. Western media has the tendency to discredit Chinese vaccines; on the flip side, I also think China is fuelling some of the mRNA disinformation narratives out there. It's a sad situation all around.
My country is one of the most advanced in terms of population vaccinated with both doses (mainly Sinovac and Pfizer), and the study of effectiveness finally came back. Although the Pfizer is a little bit more effective, SINOVAC is plenty good.
Results after 2 weeks of the second shot:
63.6% effective against symptoms.
87.3% effective against hospitalisation
90.0% effective against ICU admittance.
86.4% effective against death.
Don't buy the propaganda against the Chinese vaccines, they are good stuff.
Just take any vaccine available, unless you are young man, in which case try to avoid the Astra Zeneca.
These are good numbers. Obviously nowhere near as good as mRNA vaccines, but if we're going to end this pandemic workhorses like AZ and Sinovac will be very important.
The effectiveness of a vaccine should be determined from clinical trials, which Sinovac has barely performed. This explains why they have yet to publish in a peer-reviewed journal, while other companies are actively investigating in the vaccine efficacy against various variants. Negative press is inevitable when you lack data to prove your claim.
Sinovac is better than nothing, and I understand why it is a no-brainer for less wealthy countries (especially under China's vaccine diplomacy). But when given the choice, Pfizer and Moderna are obviously better options especially for healthcare workers. It's frustrating to let a skeptical vaccine ruin the effort and endanger the healthcare system.
You can claim China disguise / hide the report and data all you like, but you can't hide people queing in the hospital, people dying, and people falling sick en masse. Indonesian have none of the above, and if not for the stupid eid homecoming session it's all under control. So the vacinne actually works. Tens of Millions have used Sinovac, if there's something bogus about it you don't need to wait for China, the effect can already be seen on the field.
Indonesian have mainly relied upon Sinovac / Sinopharm plus a little bit of Aztra Zaneca (probably the problematci banned batch sold for cheap). Problem is, we're not a rich country, nobody gives a feck about us other than China. Pfizer/Moderna/JnJ/AZ are being prioritized for the west, good luck fighting for doses if you're not "extremely rich" or at least "valuable ally". At this moment we've vaccinated roughly all of our Old aged, 50+ and now starting to mass vaccinating 18+, all using SInovac.
I don't see Pfizer and co coming until the very least early 2022.
Regarding the bolded part, you're being petty and unfair. Thanks to them we're vaccinated. If we're to wait for the western aid (mercy) we'd be fecked by now.
Call it diplomacy, soft power, whatever, they send millions of vaccines. The west do not.
Got the vaccine first dose today. Almost fainted when I was in the waiting room after before leaving. Eyes completely blurred and glazed over and managed to stumble to the nurse before collapsing in a chair. Feel a bit better now but my arm is dead and I feel v tired. Pfizer.
Got the vaccine first dose today. Almost fainted when I was in the waiting room after before leaving. Eyes completely blurred and glazed over and managed to stumble to the nurse before collapsing in a chair. Feel a bit better now but my arm is dead and I feel v tired. Pfizer.
thanks mate. Hope you are feeling better now. Another lad fainted in the waiting area and that was a bit scary too. Might have to tell them before my 2nd that I was shaky and need to be kept an eye on.
