I don't know if he did but that's 100% true and no scientist has said otherwise.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
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I don't know if he did but that's 100% true and no scientist has said otherwise.
I scrubbed through and the whole thing is batshit crazy.
They eliminated the mask mandate in Denmark as well since yesterday, except when standing in public transport but our case count is extremely low now a days. Copenhagen is getting single digit new cases per day over the past week or so.
Not impossible but so incredibly rare as to be irrelevant.
Agreed, but it’s massive ammunition to anti-vax idiots. Honestly I’m shocked that he’s said that on live TV. The majority of the population aren’t capable of the thinking required to reach the caveat in your post.
This is probably a stupid question, but is there data on the deaths that are occurring now and whether they are double, single or not vaccinated? Surely this would shut a lot of those people up, or stop so much hesitancy?
There is data compiled by PHE. It confirms that people have died from covid despite being fully vaccinated. The “100% efficacy against severe disease/hospitalisation” claims we saw based on the vaccine trials was always a pipe dream. They didn’t recruit enough people to be able to stand over those claims. And this was before these latest variants.
This same PHE data does confirm that you’re a hell of a lot less likely to get sick/die if you’ve been vaccinated. Which is all that matters really.
“Incredibly rare” is a bit of an overstatement. I’d go for very unlikely.
It would be much worse to rule out that possibility and then the evidence points to that happening, however rarely. Then it would be classed as a cover up and conspiracies would have some merit. When the evidence is this positive, there is very little benefit to hiding the uncomfortable facts anyway. Most people aren’t good at estimating probabilities but they can understand the idea that this thing does its job exceptionally well, but not perfectly. If people claimed it was perfect it would raise more suspicions, IMO.
Fair point. I think though if he was going to say something like that it would have helped to then immediately provide figures on how unlikely it is, or something similar.
Yeah agreed, at this point I imagine we have enough data to make robust claims about it. Definitely sounds a bit alarming without appropriate context!
Just had my second jab, I’m officially invincible.
There have been a couple of recent deaths in Bolton of people who were fully-vaccinated. If they have some underlying problem chronic health issues, it's always more likely to happen.
When will they announce the guided number of daily cases that will be deemed acceptable to lead normal everyday life again?
Is it going to be cases in the 10s, 100s, low thousands? Sooner or later we will have to have a serious convo on this and I actually think it would get everyone to focus a bit more rather than just the finger wagging...."just a few more weeks now" message that people are generally just rolling their eyes at (just to state I fully accept delaying for another few weeks is sensible while people getting double dosed gets up to about 40m so 75% ish).
Given every press conference now Johnson, Whitty and Vallance state we'll have to live with covid for foreseeable future there dosen't seem to be much in the way of projections around for what could be deemed acceptable safe amount of risk and the trade offs.
I don't expect any day to day normality until 2022 tbh but would be good to have a guide at least and see how far away we are from it.
Is it going to be cases in the 10s, 100s, low thousands? Sooner or later we will have to have a serious convo on this and I actually think it would get everyone to focus a bit more rather than just the finger wagging...."just a few more weeks now" message that people are generally just rolling their eyes at (just to state I fully accept delaying for another few weeks is sensible while people getting double dosed gets up to about 40m so 75% ish).
Given every press conference now Johnson, Whitty and Vallance state we'll have to live with covid for foreseeable future there dosen't seem to be much in the way of projections around for what could be deemed acceptable safe amount of risk and the trade offs.
I don't expect any day to day normality until 2022 tbh but would be good to have a guide at least and see how far away we are from it.
It's a fair question, but it's still difficult to give a fair answer. I think we've got used to the idea of flu deaths (typically 10-30,000 per year in the UK). Theoretically at least I think people would accept similar misery from covid but we currently can't even guarantee that.
The infection exposure v cases v hospitalisations v deaths ratios are changing dramatically now as vaccines come in, but they also potentially change as the virus mutates. The current best guess for Delta is that 10,000 cases (per day) means about 400 new hospitalisations/day. We don't know about the deaths yet, but probably no worse than 100/day. "Just" flu type misery.
The trouble is that the virus doesn't care about our vision of acceptable loss. 10,000 cases/day of a highly infectious disease can quickly (by doubling every week or two) become 20,000 or 40,000 or 80,000 and we can't just switch the controls (or the hospital beds and funeral parlours) on and off for years.
The more people vaccinated, the lower we can force the case rate, and the longer it would take to climb again.
Longer term - we need to learn some lessons.
Ventilation in homes, schools, offices, transport, factories, pubs etc needs tackling. Cultural (and financial) changes to discourage people from going to work when sick are needed. Same with things like self-quarantine for contacts/exposure - can it be replaced with testing and what can we make easier about doing it. We need to make things work better.
Similarly, it's worth remembering that the normal flu season can mean hospitals get overwhelmed. Throw a similar scale of covid on top and the NHS will never really restart other services. Care homes need more support. We need more spending, and that means more taxes. We'll keep paying for covid financially as well as in health terms even after the last social distancing limit is lifted.
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This is the big question and I’m very hopeful it won’t be that high. I think the models on twitter saying we’re at 4-5% of cases resulting in hospitalisation are still using 10 days as the hospitalisation point but from what we know about delta it seems less than that due to the higher viral load. You get symptoms quicker and then hospitalisation quicker. Which is interesting because in theory that wouid reduce the asymptomatic timeframe which you’d think would result in less spread - maybe it’s just people aren’t isolating because the symptoms are so mild initially - headache/runny nose/sore throat.
Quite bizarre and poor interpretation from you. One of the guys on the panel is the literal inventor of the mRNA vaccine technology and holds the patent for which these vaccines have been created. Maybe dig a bit more? Two of them have also had the vaccine along with being the inventor of its tech so no not anti vax at all. A smaller digestible video that has a snippet of what they are getting at. They are worried about the data, not the same as anti vax.
Unless this is all one big hoax then I apologize unreservedly but I've seen nothing to suggest that. The shouty guy did get in the way quite a lot I do agree but he did come out and apologise and its pinned to the comments.
You should not make the same mistake of shouting down something like the lableak theory as it can costs lives.
I did some digging after my last post. The Robert Malone guy was involved in some early research re therapeutic mRNA and has some patents in that area but most definitely did not invent the vaccines being used today. Or any other vaccine ever. Literally the only person who is claiming that Robert Malone invented mRNA vaccines is Robert Malone. The fact he seems determined to take credit for the achievements of other scientists is a huge red flag.
Here’s a good article about the scientists we should really be crediting for this amazing innovation. Not one mention of Robert Malone, funnily enough.
Walton’s website has angry rants about “intellectual rape” so he seems to be pissed off about not getting the credit he thinks he deserves, which explains why he seems intent on discrediting those who went the hard yards in taking a theory all the way through to an effective therapeutic intervention.
I didn’t do any digging on the other guys but, as I said, the small clip I watched featured one of them talking absolute nonsense so I’m not really interested in listening to anything else they say.
thanks - he seems more involved than you suggest but in any case it disproves your wild anti vax theory.
another article on the tech and his involvement.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/247/4949/1465
Did anyone see Jon Stewart’s appearance on Colbert the other night peddling the lab leak theory? I think he’s lost his mind.
Hmmm, didn't see it, but I will say a lab leak isn't an impossible concept. I don't buy the idea of a lab manufactured virus or deliberate lab leak. But an accidental infection to a lab worker working on a live virus? Not impossible.
The idea that "something" odd happened at the Wuhan lab (or indeed that the Wuhan Lab had already seen the virus leap to a human host but without causing disease) before the official Case Zero date in Wuhan is backed up by some circumstantial evidence. The WHO delegation really didn't have enough access to give an answer the questions.
This is a puzzle (not just because it’s in French!)
Not a puzzle at all. Bulgaria has second highest excess deaths after Peru (economist). So, close to herd immunity plus summer effect.
I think it’s reasonable to say it should be looked into, which it is being from what I understand, it was more the manner in which he went about it.
I was waiting for him to say he was joking but he just seemed kinda unhinged. A quick Google suggests he’s taken some flack for it too.
@Rado_N in 2 weeks, “I think I have covid”
I’m actually feeling pretty fatigued at the moment, definitely more than after the first jab. Hope it passes quickly.
Nice, can't wait to get my 2 doses so I can attach some fridge magnets to myself, it's gonna be all the style soon. Gonna put a CR7 magnet on my arse.
I’m actually feeling pretty fatigued at the moment, definitely more than after the first jab. Hope it passes quickly.
I did! It seemed like a "bit" to me and not sure if entirely serious
What did you get? Moderna hit me and my wife hard on the second one
I’m actually feeling pretty fatigued at the moment, definitely more than after the first jab. Hope it passes quickly.
@SirAF
I thought that at first but he just kept at it.
AZ, we were eligible early so got the first about 12 weeks ago before they changed the rules.
So he was second author on a 1990 paper concerning RNA being injected into mouse muscle which resulted in protein expression?
Vaguely in the area but nothing directly to do with current mRNA vaccine development. I seriously doubt that any of the other 6 authors would claim any such thing.
As Pogue said the video itself contains utter nonsense (and I scrubbed through and the nonsense continued) and to me seems indistinguishable from conspiracy theory covidiot ramblings.
1:20: statement that the spike protein in the mRA+NA vaccine is cytotoxic and "very destructive" the "inventor" agrees with this and says he has alerted the FDA - not true
2:30 onwards: The state that the problem is that mRAN vaccines go "everywhere" and are responsible for a wide range of terrible sounding side effects - not true as mRNA vaccines don't seem to have very few severe side effects.
5:20 ish: Claim about spikes possibly cleaving due to insufficient animal testing - No evidence that there was a lack of testing or any evidence of harm occurring
After that he claims to have friends at the FDA how "know" about this stuff but are presumably ignoring it. All 3 agree that this isn't like "any other" vaccine. Not stated but presumably they are suggesting that the bad side effects that, seem only visible to them, is due to the vaccine being "different" which seems to be unsupportable nonsense. We then head off into loopy shit suggesting that the vaccines causes babies to be born with their head spilt in half and the information is being suppressed. They then start saying that even if 50% of what they say is right it "is alarming" and something should be done as "we are in danger" - argument after argument build on a false premise and other false arguments. Nor so much arguments built on a foundation of quicksand but rather a foundation of diarrhea.
Listening in more detail showed it to be far far worse than I first through. I also didn't ignore any argument they made so they made not a single supportable point.
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Ramblings of disagreements and ad hominem attack. Could you supply the data that shows the protein does not go around the body or is cytotoxic. im sorry but wibble of redcafe Saying not true isn't all that convincing. You discredit his achievments and virology background is yours greater? Is their data flawed? - that's what they are using not mearly saying something is true or not true. They have had the vaccine so calling them like anti vaxxers is plainly ridiculous. If you want me to take your response seriously try not to attack the messenger it's a weary trope. Data please - I find their data a bit worrying.
There is zero evidence of toxicity much less cytotoxicity. I'm not saying it but the evidence is.
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...n-covid-19-vaccines-spike-protein-toxic-or-c/
Why would you think a vaccine being distributed around the body was a problem anyway? The whole video is unsupported statements so it is ironic you ask for evidence.
And I'm not attacking you for being misled by such rubbish. I just find it sad that such rubbish leads people astray.
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Thanks, I understand but I'm not led astray and I don't feel attacked. I'm looking at the data from the Japanese and these scientist interpretations and I am worried. I may well not need be but this is exactly why I posted to see if the data could be interpreted different or it didn't matter. Do you not think we track adverse events and do huge safety studies to look for possible issues just like this?
On the subject of the vaccine being distributed around the body that's not what they actually said it was the spike protein was distributed around the body which could be an issue especially as the vaccine makers said it wouldn't in their submissions - (according to the podcast). Thanks for the link hopefully that is true that seems to be crux of the argument - if its not toxic there should not be a problem.
Can you tell me what this article is supposed to prove?
Rest of the article is just posturing (much like the bulk of the lab leak articles), but this is interesting:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/06/15/lab-leak-theory-doesnt-hold-up-covid-china/
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/06/15/lab-leak-theory-doesnt-hold-up-covid-china/
From a comedic point of view I could see what he was doing, from a logic point of view, he’s not wrong. I think the problem is that people really look up to him as a bit of a grounded, wise head with rational takes on things so it was disappointing to see him mouthing off like a Fox News commentator.
That is interesting. Convincing too.