SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

jojojo said:
I doubt he's celebrating the deaths or the rise in case numbers. I think he, and a lot more Mancs, were left wondering just what the criteria was that meant London didn't have a Tier3 worthy problem two weeks ago. Manchester was basically operating under 2/3 rules from late July and got very little financial help - when Andy Burnham etc complained that punishing a region for being poor, having overcrowded housing etc, wouldn't fix anything, and the lack of support was making it poorer.

From a Manc perspective nothing changed until London got caught up in the restrictions and suddenly Burnham's unreasonable demands were easily met for London and the south, but were not backdated to deal with the same problems in areas who'd been coping for longer.

The question of criteria made it worse - when Manchester went into local measures it had less cases/100k than most Tier1 areas do now. When the post-national lockdown tiers were announced Manchester's rates were falling fast and London's were rising and they weren't that far apart even in raw numbers.

On an emotional level there's a big slice of schadenfreude underway. On a practical level though - there's a real sense that actually the government does bugger all to help people or businesses until it effects the capital, at which point they notice that there might be a need to do something. In other words, there is something in it for other areas in trouble. London going into Tier 3 will do a lot more for the other local support packages than Newcastle did.
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Dante said:
It's typical that you'd defend Boris and your Tory mates.

Back in October, Manchester asked for 80% of funding towards furlough in our local lockdown. We got offered 60% because the government apparently couldn't afford it:



Then a few days later, it was announced there'd be a national lockdown which included London. All of a sudden, 80% funding was available again:



Boris tried to prioritise London over the north and he got exposed over it.

And when it came to deciding on the covid tiers, we were used a political football once again as a way to get back at Mayor Burnham for causing a fuss in the national papers, despite having better figures than much of the south:



The Tory plan was to protect the London economy over its busy Christmas period, and to teach those uppity northerners a lesson. Well, feck them for trying to play those games.

There's no joy in seeing Londoners enter tier 3. But there is schadenfreude for the PM treating us like a national afterthought and seeing his masterplan fail.
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Well said.
 
Government obsession with keeping schools open is pathetic. Killing people every day by doing it.
 
SiRed said:
Apparently its not the schools!!!!! Its people popping round to their families homes for a brew :confused::confused::confused:
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Delusion of the highest order. They wheel out the data that says infection is low in schools but isn’t actually impossible to know that if kids are not showing symptoms? Teachers test rates are low but that’s probably because they’re able to keep their distance with all the mask wearing etc. Kids are giving it to each other without even knowing it then going home and spreading it there. At that point it won’t be known exactly where it’s came from.
 
The Christmas relaxations were always stupid. But in the light of the US Thanksgiving outcome and the increased cases here, it will be negligence of the government for not revising their arrangements.
Why five days?
 
TheReligion said:
Be staying in 3 I think
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That's my guess as well. Having places open up just before Christmas through into the New Year, and then families meeting up over Christmas just sounds like a recipe for a truly grim January. If things go well over Christmas then opening up in January and staying open sounds like a much nicer option. Though even that might be wishful thinking, but it would be preferable, if we can achieve it.

Fingers crossed for all those vaccines that are in the pipeline and the ones that are already scheduled for rollout - at least they give me hope.
 
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BluesJr said:
Delusion of the highest order. They wheel out the data that says infection is low in schools but isn’t actually impossible to know that if kids are not showing symptoms? Teachers test rates are low but that’s probably because they’re able to keep their distance with all the mask wearing etc. Kids are giving it to each other without even knowing it then going home and spreading it there. At that point it won’t be known exactly where it’s came from.
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Dunno if they share the same data in the UK but one of the pieces of information they’re using in Ireland is the positivity rate. Symptoms or not (and teens will get symptoms almost as often as adults) kids are still going to get tested, even if it’s only as close contacts with confirmed cases (e.g. if one of their family gets covid) and the % positive tests with school-kids was lower than it was for adults.

That was a while ago, though. I don’t know if its changed. And I don’t know what the UK data looks like.
 
jojojo said:
That's my guess as well. Having places open up just before Christmas through into the New Year, and then families meeting up over Christmas just sounds like a recipe for a truly grim January. If things go well over Christmas then opening up in January and staying open sounds like a much nicer option. Though even that might be wishful thinking, if we can achieve it.

Fingers crossed for all those vaccines that are in the pipeline and the ones that are already scheduled for rollout - at least they give me hope.
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Yeah it seems totally logical especially with the moving of London and the South into 3.

Can't the see value in making such changes now to be honest. Christmas and New Year are just around the corner and the furlough scheme is still in place. It makes sense to tighten things up or at least maintain what we have and get through the holiday season and then see where we are at.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Dunno if they share the same data in the UK but one of the pieces of information they’re using in Ireland is the positivity rate. Symptoms or not (and teens will get symptoms almost as often as adults) kids are still going to get tested, even if it’s only as close contacts with confirmed cases (e.g. if one of their family gets covid) and the % positive tests with school-kids was lower than it was for adults.

That was a while ago, though. I don’t know if its changed. And I don’t know what the UK data looks like.
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The ONS collect data from a large random sample of the population every week, irrespective of symptoms reported or positive tests of. Available here. Imperial do another one.

Primary school kids have a positivity rate of around 1%, in line with 25-34 and 35-44 year olds and below uni age kids, but it has been rising in December.

Secondary school kids now have the highest positivity rate of 2%, while college / uni age fell down from 2.3% in mid-November to 1.3% in December. Uni folks are still infected more often than all older age groups but its coming back in line, while secondary school kids are essentially infected 2x as often as their parents, and 3-5x as often as their grandparents.

None of that suggests that schools are a disproportionately likely place for super-spreader events, you would still expect more super spreader events to have happened given the amount of time they spend in there and the limited precautions available. But they are an opportunity for transmission that isn't available to other age groups, and it's quite likely that poorly ventilated schools have went to unventilated schools as the cold started to bite. And then hanging out afterwards somewhere indoors.
 
BluesJr said:
Government obsession with keeping schools open is pathetic. Killing people every day by doing it.
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If the kids aren't in school then the parents have to look after them and not work, killing the economy which is what its all about really for them.
 
Brwned said:
The ONS collect data from a large random sample of the population every week, irrespective of symptoms reported or positive tests of. Available here. Imperial do another one.

Primary school kids have a positivity rate of around 1%, in line with 25-34 and 35-44 year olds and below uni age kids, but it has been rising in December.

Secondary school kids now have the highest positivity rate of 2%, while college / uni age fell down from 2.3% in mid-November to 1.3% in December. Uni folks are still infected more often than all older age groups but its coming back in line, while secondary school kids are essentially infected 2x as often as their parents, and 3-5x as often as their grandparents.

None of that suggests that schools are a disproportionately likely place for super-spreader events, you would still expect more super spreader events to have happened given the amount of time they spend in there and the limited precautions available. But they are an opportunity for transmission that isn't available to other age groups, and it's quite likely that poorly ventilated schools have went to unventilated schools as the cold started to bite. And then hanging out afterwards somewhere indoors.
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Ok, interesting. It does seem a bit nuts that we aren’t at least extending school xmas holidays. In Ireland they’ve done the opposite. Our kids (primary school) would usually finish up this week but they’re going back in next week until Wednesday (which I think is helping catch up on days missed during first lockdown?) Thus giving them a grand total of 48 hours between a day in the classroom and a day with their granny and grandad!
 
ha_rooney said:
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British Government minister says ‘"We've got to trust the British people to act responsibly and do the minimum that is possible for them in their family situation”.

This is the same British public whose behaviours have engineered amongst the very highest density of deaths per population on the planet. :wenger:
 
sammsky1 said:
British Government minister says ‘"We've got to trust the British people to act responsibly and do the minimum that is possible for them in their family situation”.

This is the same British public whose behaviours have engineered amongst the very highest density of deaths per population on the planet. :wenger:
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I've spoken to a few people who live abroad about their situation.

They'll say restaurants and clubs and cinemas remain open, but nobody goes and most people choose to stay away from places by choice.

It is curious how we seem to have the attitude to flock places as soon as they open. But then, i can't say i'm guilt-free. I can't wait to do things again.
 
I completely understand why they would review Christmas, but I hope they don't change it. To pull away being able to see family after not not seeing some of them all year at this short notice would be brutal.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
I've spoken to a few people who live abroad about their situation.

They'll say restaurants and clubs and cinemas remain open, but nobody goes and most people choose to stay away from places by choice.

It is curious how we seem to have the attitude to flock places as soon as they open. But then, i can't say i'm guilt-free. I can't wait to do things again.
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A lot of that will be driven by the knowledge that they will close again at the drop of a hat. So people will see it as their one opportunity. I think opening and closing again is only making things worse. They need to make a decision and stick with it.
 
mitChley said:
I completely understand why they would review Christmas, but I hope they don't change it. To pull away being able to see family after not not seeing some of them all year at this short notice would be brutal.
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I don't think they will - if only because enforcement would be a massive issue. Can you imagine the reaction if a granny got fined for having both daughters visit over Christmas.

I suspect we'll get a fudge, but I'm hoping it comes with clear (and obvious) guidance, things like:
If you're meeting on Christmas Day avoid everything (the pub, the gym, the crowded shopping centre)
and everybody for the week before.
If you have to go to work, keep away from your colleagues, sit near the open window, wear a mask.
Avoid overnight stops, if you have to stay overnight check the instructions on sharing bathroom/kitchen space etc.
Open the windows as often as you can or as much as you can.
If you can - avoid staying in the same room together for long periods.
Any symptoms - cancel the meetup, even if they happen on the day you're expected to traveller or once you're together (I reckon most people will find this is the hardest)
or something like that...
 
acnumber9 said:
A lot of that will be driven by the knowledge that they will close again at the drop of a hat. So people will see it as their one opportunity. I think opening and closing again is only making things worse. They need to make a decision and stick with it.
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You can only stick with it so far though. Look at Germany. Just had to close all shops the week before Christmas. Having closed restaurants/bars a few weeks before that.
 
mitChley said:
I completely understand why they would review Christmas, but I hope they don't change it. To pull away being able to see family after not not seeing some of them all year at this short notice would be brutal.
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So you chose not to see them when the infection rate was low, but you want to see them when infection rates are higher than they’ve ever been in many places.

You need to think long and hard about how you come to decisions like this.

I recognise that times have been tough. I appreciate the desire for you to see your family.

But you’re looking logic in the face and asking if it’s ok to piss on it. Or worse, you’ll piss on it if Boris tells you it’s ok.

Unless you’ve got some really robust isolation protocols in place for all attendees, are all healthy, and will be meeting in a space that’s extremely well ventilated, large enough to maintain distance at all times.... do not go and meet your family mate.

Don’t wait for this inept corrupt bunch to tell you what’s safe for your family. They don’t care if any of them die.

You’ve got 7-10 days to get all of your gang on board with something safe. Start today. Be honest with everyone, including yourself.

People should not be mixing inside homes for the next month or so, if not longer. We all know that. Some will do it anyway. Some safely. Some not.

Be safe. Be smarter than the Government.
 
They know damn well with 10 days to go that plans will have been made and that people will do it anyway. If they come out with new restrictions now it's just so they can once again blame the public and try avoid any themselves.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
So you chose not to see them when the infection rate was low, but you want to see them when infection rates are higher than they’ve ever been in many places.

You need to think long and hard about how you come to decisions like this.
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Condescending much? You know precisely zero about the reasons why we couldn't see them when cases were low.
I'm not a child, I don't need your tone.
 
mitChley said:
Condescending much? You know precisely zero about the reasons why we couldn't see them when cases were low.
I'm not a child, I don't need your tone.
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I don’t think he was being condescending at all. In fact you should feel honoured someone cares enough to give you some advice!
 
mitChley said:
Condescending much? You know precisely zero about the reasons why we couldn't see them when cases were low.
I'm not a child, I don't need your tone.
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He wasn't being condescending in any way. If you think seeing family is a good idea right now then nothing anyone can say is going to help you.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Ok, interesting. It does seem a bit nuts that we aren’t at least extending school xmas holidays. In Ireland they’ve done the opposite. Our kids (primary school) would usually finish up this week but they’re going back in next week until Wednesday (which I think is helping catch up on days missed during first lockdown?) Thus giving them a grand total of 48 hours between a day in the classroom and a day with their granny and grandad!
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It’s absolute nonsense. In my school alone, there’s been 3 cases amongst staff in the last 14 days resulting in 2 classes being closed. The teachers morale is not good and everyone is tired. This government want to flog every last day out of them just because Martin promised schools would stay open.
This week they have no homework because they are “winding down”, then next week they are in for a day and a half. What’s the point? Give the teachers a break and close the bloody things this Friday, but no, you must come in next week to do feck all
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
So you chose not to see them when the infection rate was low, but you want to see them when infection rates are higher than they’ve ever been in many places.

You need to think long and hard about how you come to decisions like this.

I recognise that times have been tough. I appreciate the desire for you to see your family.

But you’re looking logic in the face and asking if it’s ok to piss on it. Or worse, you’ll piss on it if Boris tells you it’s ok.

Unless you’ve got some really robust isolation protocols in place for all attendees, are all healthy, and will be meeting in a space that’s extremely well ventilated, large enough to maintain distance at all times.... do not go and meet your family mate.

Don’t wait for this inept corrupt bunch to tell you what’s safe for your family. They don’t care if any of them die.

You’ve got 7-10 days to get all of your gang on board with something safe. Start today. Be honest with everyone, including yourself.

People should not be mixing inside homes for the next month or so, if not longer. We all know that. Some will do it anyway. Some safely. Some not.

Be safe. Be smarter than the Government.
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Excellent advise. Stick that on a yellow poster Boris!
 
It very clear that the county is not in a position where it should be relaxing the rules over Christmas. It's also very clear that the UK population wouldn't accept not being allowed to see family over Xmas, I mean even vulnerable people I know are planning on stretching(*Cough* breaking *Cough*) the relaxed rules for the xmas period. So while I think the government are idiots and have made a mess of the whole thing from start to finish, But I think the blame for the coming Christmas fiasco lies 90% with the general British population. Of course, us British people will still blame the government and never accept any blame our selves as that is unfortunately what we do in this country.

I dunno if anyone here lives in Germany? From what I understand they have infection rates lower than ours and are going into lockdown and the population seems to be accepting of it? Am I wrong? Cos I just can't imagine British people accepting of it.
 
mitChley said:
Condescending much? You know precisely zero about the reasons why we couldn't see them when cases were low.
I'm not a child, I don't need your tone.
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Read the whole post and perhaps stop reacting like a child.

I didn’t accuse you of anything. I’ve empathised across the board. If the opening lines read as snarky they’re sure as shit balanced out by what followed.

I’m on YOUR side.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
It very clear that the county is not in a position where it should be relaxing the rules over Christmas. It's also very clear that the UK population wouldn't accept not being allowed to see family over Xmas, I mean even vulnerable people I know are planning on stretching(*Cough* breaking *Cough*) the relaxed rules for the xmas period. So while I think the government are idiots and have made a mess of the whole thing from start to finish, But I think the blame for the coming Christmas fiasco lies 90% with the general British population. Of course, us British people will still blame the government and never accept any blame our selves as that is unfortunately what we do in this country.

I dunno if anyone here lives in Germany? From what I understand they have infection rates lower than ours and are going into lockdown and the population seems to be accepting of it? Am I wrong? Cos I just can't imagine British people accepting of it.
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I agree with everything you say.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
It very clear that the county is not in a position where it should be relaxing the rules over Christmas. It's also very clear that the UK population wouldn't accept not being allowed to see family over Xmas, I mean even vulnerable people I know are planning on stretching(*Cough* breaking *Cough*) the relaxed rules for the xmas period. So while I think the government are idiots and have made a mess of the whole thing from start to finish, But I think the blame for the coming Christmas fiasco lies 90% with the general British population. Of course, us British people will still blame the government and never accept any blame our selves as that is unfortunately what we do in this country.

I dunno if anyone here lives in Germany? From what I understand they have infection rates lower than ours and are going into lockdown and the population seems to be accepting of it? Am I wrong? Cos I just can't imagine British people accepting of it.
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That only works once, the government had more than enough data to know relaxing the rules and relying on common sense would cause this situation. Are the selfish idiots mostly to blame? Of course. Is the government to blame for not stopping the idiots ruining it for the rest of us? Absolutely.

That said there's plenty of moments that are fully on the government. Trying to push people back in offices, the eat out to catch covid scheme, the tier system messaging. They've been a shambles, the furlough payments were the only thing they've done right and they still managed to cock that up for the North.
 
Smores said:
That only works once, the government had more than enough data to know relaxing the rules and relying on common sense would cause this situation. Are the selfish idiots mostly to blame? Of course. Is the government to blame for not stopping the idiots ruining it for the rest of us? Absolutely.

That said there's plenty of moments that are fully on the government. Trying to push people back in offices, the eat out to catch covid scheme, the tier system messaging. They've been a shambles, the furlough payments were the only thing they've done right and they still managed to cock that up for the North.
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But the vast majority of people are being selfish can you imagine the outcry if the government said no 2 households are allowed to meet inside during xmas, (which probably should be the rule) It just wouldn't be accepted. Even most right-minded people I know don't seem to want to hear they can't see everyone they want to at xmas. The 'us' are in a tiny minorty, the vast majority of people will break the rules whatever they are over xmas. And when the vast majoirty of the population wants to do something, you have to blame the population, not the government.

The rest of your comments I agree with, though I think the government has been far to swayed by public opinion throughout the pandemic its seems to make its policy depending on who is complaining the loudest on any one given day. which has lead to an absolute mess. But year Furlough scheme one thing they have vaguely got right.
 
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