SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Acole9 said:
Another fecking lockdown what a joke. Absolutely killing people's livelihoods. I don't doubt that this virus is horrible and killing lots of people but there's plenty of other illnesses and conditions that kill people too. We can't just keep shutting everything down, people are going to be broke and out on the street if this carries on.
Click to expand...

There literally has never been anything in your lifetime that is as dangerous and spreads as quickly as this, nor has there been any illness that killed more people in a single month than covid in April...while we were in lockdown. It isn't comparable to your chance of getting hit by a bus.
 
Volumiza said:
Held culpable to what measure? Seriously, do you think any government would do anything massively different? As far as I can see each country is facing similar situations and as far as I can see each country is resorting to similar actions and as far as I can see outcomes are pretty similar everywhere.

I know it’s easy to throw everything at those in charge but the responsibility to stop this massive surge in transmissions, in my view anyway, stop with us, the populace.

We’ve known how to reduce the spread since April, and it seems to me like large parts of our population have been so eager to live their lives normally that we find ourselves in this mess. I certainly don’t blame the government in isolation for this mess, most of my blame falls at the feet of idiots who just can’t understand the severity of the pandemic and the sacrifices we all will have to make for the next few months. I’m fine with it.
Click to expand...

Profiting off the Pandemic, corruption check.
One rule for us, another for them, check.
Reacting rather than proactive, check
Ignoring scientific advice, check


Yes it's an impossible situation but the government have been incredibly incompetent.
Governments all around the world are struggling and the tories have definetly made the odd good decision but it's always fell short.
Trying to find that twitter guy who does the a week in tory.. that is enough to make you want to thump a wall.
 
Acole9 said:
How can you say that?! It's been a disaster. The track and trace is shit, that's on them because Boris Johnson has given jobs to the boys and the person in charge is married to a Tory mp and has a track record of failures in other companies.
Click to expand...
sammsky1 said:
Boris and Government were to blame for total inaction during January and February which cost UK 1000s of innocent deaths and massive impact on economy. Every decision since has been negatively impacted because of that. But Tories think Boris, Rishi and HealthCock did well.

Even now, it seems like taking the circuit breaker during half term could have lessened impact, but we are now facing a month lockdown instead.
Click to expand...

In none of my posts have I denied that aspects of our governments action or inaction have been great. Far from it. Just annoys me that people are so eager to condemn the government for the situation we’re in when it is us, the people, who are spreading this virus so freely by looking for ways to beat restrictions, looking to carry on as normal when we all know what Covid is and we all know what is necessary to stem the rise in infection. If everyone everywhere had been doing these things the virus wouldn’t be spiralling out of control, nothing to do with Tory governance.
 
Acole9 said:
Those who are vulnerable and want to shield continue to do so and the rest take our chances and try to get on with our lives. Continue to be sensible with mask wearing/social distancing. Lockdowns just delay. I know so many people who have lost their jobs, this is such a desperate situation. Every day there are risks, if this is all over you could walk out in front of a bus and it kills you, sorry to be so morbid and if I sound callous but everyone has to die of something.
Click to expand...
Last I checked, hundreds of people don't die everyday in this country from bus collisions.
 
Brwned said:
There literally has never been anything in your lifetime that is as dangerous and spreads as quickly as this, nor has there been any illness that killed more people in a single month than covid in April...while we were in lockdown. It isn't comparable to your chance of getting hit by a bus.
Click to expand...
What's your solution to this then? Have you been under threat of redundancy in your job? I'm sure your mindset will shift somewhat if it was.
 
Stactix said:
Profiting off the Pandemic, corruption check.
One rule for us, another for them, check.
Reacting rather than proactive, check
Ignoring scientific advice, check


Yes it's an impossible situation but the government have been incredibly incompetent.
Governments all around the world are struggling and the tories have definetly made the odd good decision but it's always fell short.
Trying to find that twitter guy who does the a week in tory.. that is enough to make you want to thump a wall.
Click to expand...

I agree, but it is up to us to do what we know, and have known all year and it just seems we are unable or unwilling to do it.
 
Volumiza said:
It’s easy to blame those in charge but while I agree that these decisions could cost lives, you also have to understand that for every voice shouting in Boris’s ear concerning lives, there are just as many shouting about the economy and livelihoods. It can’t be easy and as far as I can see most leaders are struggling also. It must be like trying to hold water.
Click to expand...
I'm fairly confident Dominic Cummings is calling the shots anyway. Johnson is just a puppet.
 
Acole9 said:
Those who are vulnerable and want to shield continue to do so and the rest take our chances and try to get on with our lives. Continue to be sensible with mask wearing/social distancing. Lockdowns just delay. I know so many people who have lost their jobs, this is such a desperate situation. Every day there are risks, if this is all over you could walk out in front of a bus and it kills you, sorry to be so morbid and if I sound callous but everyone has to die of something.
Click to expand...
A segment of British people are just too selfish and cant be trusted for your strategy to work.

And during unprecedented global pandemic, losing your job is something 'to take your chances with', not many many other peoples lives.

And yes, your last line reads as extremely callous.
 
sammsky1 said:
A segment of British people are just too selfish and cant be trusted for your strategy to work.

And yes, your last line reads as extremely callous.
Click to expand...
Ok well what's your solution to this then? Have you been at risk of redundancy and witnessed the impact this has on people's mental wellbeing?
 
Brwned said:
You have the same access to the data that I do. It's just google. We know when countries re-opened their schools, we know when peaks in transmission happened, and we know when those two things didn't align. Just from two google searches per country. If you really wanted the answer to the question rather than trying to make a point, you'd be better off just googling these things for your own peace of mind. Instead it looks like you're only googling evidence that fits the narrative you want to put out there. But sure I'll pull up some numbers.

To pick up on your point about the scientific assessment from NI, I think it's worth clarifying a couple of things. They didn't say that closing schools would reduce the R rate by 0.5. They said it oould be as low as 0.2, or as high as 0.5. They gave a more confident prediction that secondary schools would a) be more likely to spread the virus, and b) be around 0.35. So if secondary schools are more likely to spread it, and their best estimate is 0.35 for them, then we can safely assume their estimate for primary schools is closer to 0.2. Very possibly lower. They also said in the same document that overall the assessment is provided with "low confidence, as unclear how much schools may contribute to community transmission." and other measures related to education are "low confidence, as remains unclear how infectious children may be." And their modelling on education settings was based on influenza, because as they said repeatedly, they haven't got any clear evidence on covid spreading in classrooms. Despite the fact that you believe it to be an obvious driver of this second wave, they can't find the evidence for it at all.



Pages 13-15 here, Geebs. The scientists aren't saying different things, they are just being misrepresented. You don't need to trust my words or his words, the advisers laid it out incredibly thoroughly there. The views from NI's expert are entirely consistent with the consensus that older teenagers in secondary school are more likely to spread it than young kids in primary school, and that there is no evidence that schools are hotbeds of transmission.
Click to expand...
You’re the one making the point. Back it up.

If the evidence used is based on influenza for schools then surely it’s based on that for everything? Even if we go with just the 0.35 for secondary schools that’s 7 times more than the close contact services they’ve shut. And ignores universities and primary school. The evidence is in the numbers. The only thing that changed in September was schools and universities opening.
 
Last edited:
Fluctuation0161 said:
I'm fairly confident Dominic Cummings is calling the shots anyway. Johnson is just a puppet.
Click to expand...

Again, all of that doesn’t matter in a way. We all know what Covid is, how it works, how it spreads and how we can stop it but all year I’ve seen idiots either fighting it, ignoring it or denying it. Now look where we are.
 
Acole9 said:
What's your solution to this then? Have you been under threat of redundancy in your job? I'm sure your mindset will shift somewhat if it was.
Click to expand...

Government should be doing better to help out these businesses that are forced to close and more importantly the people that work there. They spent 12 billion on a dud track and trace system.
 
Volumiza said:
I didn’t actually imply anything, just wondered why you think the majority wouldn’t support a lockdown.

And nor did I say it was easy, quite the opposite. I certainly don’t envy the PM at this time.
Click to expand...
I think during a global pandemic it is a fairly safe bet to listen to your scientists!

Funny how Germany, France, Ireland leaders all made the decision at much lower infection rates than we have in the UK.

No doubt it would be a hard decision for UK leadership, but being led by a bunch of incompetents does not help the matter. They can't even get the time of a press conference right!
 
Acole9 said:
Those who are vulnerable and want to shield continue to do so and the rest take our chances and try to get on with our lives. Continue to be sensible with mask wearing/social distancing. Lockdowns just delay. I know so many people who have lost their jobs, this is such a desperate situation. Every day there are risks, if this is all over you could walk out in front of a bus and it kills you, sorry to be so morbid and if I sound callous but everyone has to die of something.
Click to expand...
That’s all well and good, but it feels a little wrong to me to tell the vulnerable to suck it up and hide away, especially when it inevitably will reach them anyway.

How about we don’t take our chances and protect our health services who are already overwhelmed? We need to keep beds free and just carrying on with social distancing clearly isn’t enough, which as you can see by the fact we have basically done this since August isn’t sufficient. My partner works in a covid positive ward in the NHS and honestly it’s not great, the NHS is stretched. Do you want us to be like the USA?

Yes lockdown is to delay! Until we get a vaccine and we can manage things better.
 
acnumber9 said:
You’re the one making the point. Back it up.
Click to expand...
He is right though. No evidence anywhere that under 12 year olds are a big problem. It has been told to you many times, but you just ignore it everytime and group all the school ages together.
 
Volumiza said:
Again, all of that doesn’t matter in a way. We all know what Covid is, how it works, how it spreads and how we can stop it but all year I’ve seen idiots either fighting it, ignoring it or denying it. Now look where we are.
Click to expand...
It does matter, because he is not elected and is not a scientist.

Eithet way, the mixed messaging from the government has not helped the "idiot" factor has it?

Stay home in March, masks dont work, then it is your duty to go back to work and school, then eat out to help out, then masks do work, then work from home when possible (in September, ignoring Sage advice), then calling Starmer a political opportunist for asking the government to listen to scientists and have a circuit breaker lockdown, now, lockdown.

Simple.
 
Acole9 said:
What's your solution to this then? Have you been under threat of redundancy in your job? I'm sure your mindset will shift somewhat if it was.
Click to expand...

There isn't a solution. We're in a pandemic. Some problems can't be solved, just managed, and a series of bad outcomes weighed up.

The problem with the virus isn't that it kills a lot of people. And it should be reiterated that it kills a shitload of people, even under the most absurd conditions. If it "only" killed 50,000 people while we've went through two lockdowns, and in between a shitload of restrictions, how many people do you honestly think it would have killed if we had just let it rip? We know, conclusively, it would have been magnitudes higher. Let's be a little ridiculous here and assume it "only" would have killed 100,000. Last year 63,000 people died from ischemic heart disease. The only thing that killed more was dementia. Covid might well kill more than either of them, despite the most insane efforts to prevent it from running out of control, and collapsing the health system. There is absolutely nothing in this world that is remotely as dangerous, and comparing it to getting hit by a bus just underlines the fact that you've been misled. People are planting those ideas in the papers for a reason.

The problem is how quickly it spreads. We already know that in two weeks' time twice as many people will be dying than they are now. If we didn't do anything at all, we would reasonably expect it to double again, and double again. These aren't theories, they've happened repeatedly across the world. There's no "option" to just open things back up and deal with it because there would be fewer doctors than people with life-threatening covid in a matter of weeks. Then things get real bad. Then it kills more people in a year than all other risk factors combined. And that would happen even though we had tools that we knew could prevent it from happening. At which point it becomes legitimately criminal. That is not an actual alternative, it's a weird fantasy invented by some folks at the Daily Mail and co.
 
Brwned said:
There isn't a solution. We're in a pandemic. Some problems can't be solved, just managed, and a series of bad outcomes weighed up.

The problem with the virus isn't that it kills a lot of people. And it should be reiterated that it kills a shitload of people, even under the most absurd conditions. If it "only" killed 50,000 people while we've went through two lockdowns, and in between a shitload of restrictions, how many people do you honestly think it would have killed if we had just let it rip? We know, conclusively, it would have been magnitudes higher. Let's be a little ridiculous here and assume it "only" would have killed 100,000. Last year 63,000 people died from ischemic heart disease. The only thing that killed more was dementia. Covid might well kill more than either of them, despite the most insane efforts to prevent it from running out of control, and collapsing the health system.

The problem is how quickly it spreads. We already know that in two weeks' time twice as many people will be dying than they are now. If we didn't do anything at all, we would reasonably expect it to double again, and double again. These aren't theories, they've happened repeatedly across the world. There's no "option" to just open things back up and deal with it because there would be fewer doctors than people with life-threatening covid in a matter of weeks. Then things get real bad.
Click to expand...
I tend to agree. Even if we lockdown now the effects won't be seen for weeks and the doubling of cases and deaths will keep on going. Hospitals already close to capacity and no additional staff available to work in nightingale hospitals. Hell, alot of NHS staff are already having to self isolate so they are short staffed as it is. The main factor for me is not overwhelming the hospitals.

If critical care departments are having to decide which patient, A or B gets to use the one available ICU, as happened in the first wave then we are fecked.
 
Volumiza said:
It’s easy to blame those in charge but while I agree that these decisions could cost lives, you also have to understand that for every voice shouting in Boris’s ear concerning lives, there are just as many shouting about the economy and livelihoods. It can’t be easy and as far as I can see most leaders are struggling also. It must be like trying to hold water.
Click to expand...
Its a false argument though, theres no way we were ever getting through winter without a lockdown, but we may have been able to get away with a short one. Not anymore.
 
Bwuk said:
Think it’ll be hard to enforce actually. Nowhere near enough police to deal with the lockdown and I think the majority of people rightly or wrongly don’t care.

I would imagine here in Scotland we will follow suit with England relatively soon.
Click to expand...
What ticks me off is that for all the "we should work together on this" it doesn't seem to happen. Did Boris just get the news that we would need a lockdown 24 hours ago?
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
I tend to agree. Even if we lockdown now the effects won't be seen for weeks and the doubling of cases and deaths will keep on going. Hospitals already close to capacity and no additional staff available to work in nightingale hospitals. Hell, alot of NHS staff are already having to self isolate so they are short staffed as it is. The main factor for me is not overwhelming the hospitals.

If critical care departments are having to decide which patient, A or B gets to use the one available ICU, as happened in the first wave then we are fecked.
Click to expand...
Yep! We have to protect the beds, we cannot afford to be overwhelmed and as you point out we can’t be in a position where we are choosing who lives and dies.

Such a scary time to be alive, I feel so awful for everyone, the old who have to shield and might not have contact with anyone, the young who’s social life will be suffering, people losing their jobs. Honestly it’s so depressing, the alternative is so much worse though, we can’t have hundreds of thousands of people dying.
 
massi83 said:
He is right though. No evidence anywhere that under 12 year olds are a big problem. It has been told to you many times, but you just ignore it everytime and group all the school ages together.
Click to expand...
He isn’t right though. Because there’s no proof he’s right. Whether it’s primary schools or secondary schools doesn’t matter. Schools have to be having an impact. And the scientific evidence used in Northern Ireland suggests it is an issue. How big an issue remains to be seen but people with their head in the sands are bonkers. All we have are hypotheses. The numbers tell their own story.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
It does matter, because he is not elected and is not a scientist.

Eithet way, the mixed messaging from the government has not helped the "idiot" factor has it?

Stay home in March, masks dont work, then it is your duty to go back to work and school, then eat out to help out, then masks do work, then work from home when possible (in September, ignoring Sage advice), then calling Starmer a political opportunist for asking the government to listen to scientists and have a circuit breaker lockdown, now, lockdown.

Simple.
Click to expand...

I didn’t say that the issue of Cummings role in the heart of government wasn’t an issue, just that although the government. Boris. Cummings. Hancock. All of them, getti my things wrong I still see it as OUR responsibility to fecking behave in a way that reduces the spread of the virus.
 
Bojan11 said:
Anyone been to a supermarket today? How was it?
Click to expand...

First aisle was fruit and veg. Halfway down it switches to Dairy. Decent amount of energy drinks and sandwiches. At the back is fresh meats and ready meals. Back corner is freezers and then on to the bakery. Final bend is Alcohol, not a great selection but they have what I needed.

I steer clear of the middle section as there’s so much temptation there! It’s where you’ll find chocolate, cereals, crisps and such.

The only time I dare venture there is to go to the ‘Countries’ section. I grab West Indian bits as well as a can of Irn Bru. It’s kept on a special shelf as it’s from Scotland.

Hope that helps.
 
Volumiza said:
I didn’t say that the issue of Cummings role in the heart of government wasn’t an issue, just that although the government. Boris. Cummings. Hancock. All of them, getti my things wrong I still see it as OUR responsibility to fecking behave in a way that reduces the spread of the virus.
Click to expand...
That is somewhat true, but the government have to set the example, the tone and the boundaries, and telling us to go out and all have dinner out on them, calling the pubs opening ‘super Saturday’, oh and not breaking their own lockdown rules too would help.
 
Volumiza said:
What makes you think it’s the majority that don’t care? It’s a shame we have a population that would need such policing during a lockdown.

There is a reason we’re all making these sacrifices, it’s happening all over Europe.
Click to expand...

Personal experience I suppose. I don’t think I know anyone who’s as strict as they were when the original lockdown happened.
 
I completely understand the temptation to say it's not me at risk why should I be impacted but the amount of people in the vulnerable category is too many to shield. Not only that what about their jobs and mental health too?
 
Berbasbullet said:
That is somewhat true, but the government have to set the example, the tone and the boundaries, and telling us to go out and all have dinner out on them, calling the pubs opening ‘super Saturday’, oh and not breaking their own lockdown rules too would help.
Click to expand...

I agree. I’m not sticking up for them but it does annoy me when people use them as an excuse for our idiot population.

My Prime Minister may be an idiot but I’m certainly able to not be one regardless.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
First aisle was fruit and veg. Halfway down it switches to Dairy. Decent amount of energy drinks and sandwiches. At the back is fresh meats and ready meals. Back corner is freezers and then on to the bakery. Final bend is Alcohol, not a great selection but they have what I needed.

I steer clear of the middle section as there’s so much temptation there! It’s where you’ll find chocolate, cereals, crisps and such.

The only time I dare venture there is to go to the ‘Countries’ section. I grab West Indian bits as well as a can of Irn Bru. It’s kept on a special shelf as it’s from Scotland.

Hope that helps.
Click to expand...

Toilet roll?
 
Smores said:
I completely understand the temptation to say it's not me at risk why should I be impacted but the amount of people in the vulnerable category is too many to shield. Not only that what about their jobs and mental health too?
Click to expand...

There really is no outright win to be had. Two of my best friends have lost their jobs and one is really struggling mentally, he’s a very social creature and it is hard seeing him struggle but on the other hand I know 3 people who had the virus in March, all 3 are still struggling and one actually got taken back into hospital the other week with breathing difficulties. Really tough times.
 
Volumiza said:
I know it’s easy to throw everything at those in charge but the responsibility to stop this massive surge in transmissions, in my view anyway, stop with us, the populace.

We’ve known how to reduce the spread since April, and it seems to me like large parts of our population have been so eager to live their lives normally that we find ourselves in this mess. I certainly don’t blame the government in isolation for this mess, most of my blame falls at the feet of idiots who just can’t understand the severity of the pandemic and the sacrifices we all will have to make for the next few months. I’m fine with it.
Click to expand...
I agree, but if people are hearing their PM use weak phrases like "we advise you" instead of "oi, shitface. Don't fecking do it or we'll throw you down a well" then people are more likely to take the piss.

The buck does stop with people but when people aren't being told things straight, or see their government reps ignoring the rules themselves and waving away the accusations against them, then twats will continue to act like twats. It also doesn't help when authorities aren't enforcing the regulations that are put in place. Gatherings of kids hanging outside? Police don't care. No mask in the shops? Shops can't enforce it and police don't care. Not surprising since our police forces have been bleeding money for years due to poor funding and our health service is equally fecked. These are knock on effects from subsequent governments cutting their money and, in my opinion, are equally important to factor in.
 
Volumiza said:
I agree. I’m not sticking up for them but it does annoy me when people use them as an excuse for our idiot population.

My Prime Minister may be an idiot but I’m certainly able to not be one regardless.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah I agree! I’m still seeing idiots go into shops without masks! Makes me so cross.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I agree, but if people are hearing their PM use weak phrases like "we advise you" instead of "oi, shitface. Don't fecking do it or we'll throw you down a well" then people are more likely to take the piss.
Click to expand...

And I agree with you, but would it have been any different if they’d have used that language? Would everyone have actually behaved differently?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.