That is a very bizarre idea in a country that is in trouble already and where the hospitals would quickly become overwhelmed. Especially give we may be close to the beginning of a vaccine being available which may well be able to be largely implemented before the end of 2021. Seems to be buying into the shambolic management of the UK government and concluding you might as well give up trying and lock the oldies away for a year. Then again in a country who managed to under-report 25,000 cases by trying to us an old excel file format as a database maybe the UK is fecked.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
That is a very bizarre idea in a country that is in trouble already and where the hospitals would quickly become overwhelmed. Especially give we may be close to the beginning of a vaccine being available which may well be able to be largely implemented before the end of 2021. Seems to be buying into the shambolic management of the UK government and concluding you might as well give up trying and lock the oldies away for a year. Then again in a country who managed to under-report 25,000 cases by trying to us an old excel file format as a database maybe the UK is fecked.
You can say the exact same thing about Serbs and Tesla and our other scientists that are less known but still rather important - Pupin, Milankovic etc.
Yet, 70% of people here think that the virus is either an overblown means of control or that it does not exist at all.
That depends on your point of view.
In areas under local lockdown there are businesses (largely in the hospitality sector) taking the decision to close rather than run at a loss. Swathes of the country are on local lockdown and that will have an economic impact. Nothing is stopping those businesses trading in principle, but practically the rules make it impossible to do so. Public health in that instance is being put above economic interests, and those feeling the bite of those decisions clearly feel the balance is wrong and should be challenged.
I agree, every decision is sub optimal in these unique - as I say, the balance is difficult, but I don't see why it shouldn't be questioned and we should just accept that the balance is correct. Whilst clearly the job of Government is to take decisive action, it's not unreasonable in my view to question whether that action was right, or proportionate. For example, putting millions under increased measures and making a paltry £7 million available to support businesses affected across those regions.
A further point is that in my view, the Government should be clear in its communication of the idea that we must find balance. In opening up post lockdown, clearly, economic interests were pushed to the forefront of their decision making and evidently now, faced with the inevitable increased spread, they are rowing back. Why not be honest and direct with the population about that and tell some uncomfortable truths about why we cannot solely focus on the virus? There seems a reticence to do so (due to inevitable criticism it would bring in the press) and to continually push the public health angle openly, whilst clearly taking decisions contrary to that line and pro-economy behind the scenes. You are clearly clever enough to understand the situation, but a lot of people are not.
I'll reply to the full post later, but as far as I can tell you still haven't answered my key question. Why would it not be at the forefront of their decision making? What would be the basis for taking such a position? It doesn't fit with their long term ideology nor their short term political interests, as far as I can see. That is an exceptional claim so it does require exceptional evidence.
You've pointed out that when the pandemic reached a low point they shifted the balance towards opening up the economy, and at the pandemic peak(s) they shifted the balance to the public health interests. Looked at together, that would suggest they are taking a balanced approach, because they've veered to one side and the other.
If they weren't searching for balance and instead put public health before all else, they wouldn't have done things like eat out to help out. There was always going to be a public health cost to that, but, in balance, they decided it was worth it. Now with small businesses pushed into unprofitable territory, they know those economic costs will come but they believe it's in the best interests overall. Just because it has costs doesn't mean it wasn't balanced choice. Have you watched the interview from Leo Varadkar?
I'm not saying they've struck the right balance. I'm saying the idea that they aren't searching for balance is a shocking accusation which doesn't seem to fit the evidence.
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All pubs in Belgium need to close at 11pm and people only allowed to sit together at tables of 4. All pubs in Brussels close for the next 4 weeks altogether.
Seems logical that infections can be traced to pubs but there are no pubs whatsoever that can confirm that the contact tracing details which have been left behind by customers, have been retrieved by the government. I really hope that it can truly be traced back to the pubs and they're not just doing this because it seems the right thing to do.
Meanwhile I can still go to my indoor football game tonight were I'll be sweating alongside 7 teammates and 8 strangers from the opposition. Makes little sense to me.
Seems logical that infections can be traced to pubs but there are no pubs whatsoever that can confirm that the contact tracing details which have been left behind by customers, have been retrieved by the government. I really hope that it can truly be traced back to the pubs and they're not just doing this because it seems the right thing to do.
Meanwhile I can still go to my indoor football game tonight were I'll be sweating alongside 7 teammates and 8 strangers from the opposition. Makes little sense to me.
Just got an exposure notification from the app but from some Googling it looks like I need to wait for a second before doing anything. Many false alerts apparently.
The fact that I had to find an article to explain the notification is fecking stupid.
The fact that I had to find an article to explain the notification is fecking stupid.
Makes very little sense but also makes me very jealous. My 7-a-side game (outdoors) got cancelled a week ago with our current restrictions.
Technically the notification you got is from your operating system, but agreed awful design. Shouldn’t take a twitter thread or google search to explain it
I couldn’t even see it in the app when I opened it, and the notification was gone after that. Very confusing. Feel like it is from when I went to Tesco earlier today because everywhere else I’ve been with my gf and she hasn’t gotten a notif.
Especially for indoor sports and with all of us being (I assume) amateurs, I think most people would have more understanding for recreational team sports to be put on hold than pubs having to close indefinitely or a curfew on pubs without evidence that it's a hotspot for transmission.
Tonight it's the indoor football opponent, but on Saturday I'm hugging a few other opponents at outdoor football for every corner. Quite ridiculous.
I think you’re being very very generous describing their actions as “balanced” rather than “reactive“.
My personal preference would be to close pubs before stopping sports (with no fans watching, obviously) I’m not 100% sure of relative risks but it seems obvious that drunk people crammed into indoor spaces is considerably higher risk than sober people playing football together, outdoors. Indoor sports more risky but with good ventilation and sensible precautions they’re probably ok. The problem with pubs is that people get drunk and drunk people are terrible at implementing sensible precautions. That’s why they’re not allowed to drive cars.
Seen it taken to this extreme (it was simgularly about the US) - the virus was engineered to target the older population to rid the populace of the pesky constituents who care about & want to maintain their Social Security benefits. The person suggesting this was agreeing with the use of the virus as it would reduce those who would vote on that aspect & potentially grease the skids to ultimately do away with that social program.
I wonder how many people will take a strategic covid test around the 20th of December to get 2 weeks off over the holidays...
Thats a shame because if it worked properly it would be a very helpful tool to add to the other things we can do to slow infections.
I have to say, I'm still not clear where most people are getting infected (other than within families). Is it through social events? Workplaces? Transport? Schools? Or just a mix of everywhere?
Reading NZ beat Covid again. God I miss that place.
Italy is going back to compulsory mask wearing all the time from tomorrow, inside or outside, and the UK is going on the restricted list along with the Netherlands and Belgium. Anybody coming from there will have to have a test on arrival. Cases are still half of what they were at the beginning but numbers have jumped over the last week.
We have been on the right side of some good fortune and i dont think how we handled this thing is easily replicated in Europe and among bigger populations with higher population densities and multiple borders. We are very aware of how fortunate we are. Hope you get to come visit again one day relatively soon.
Lived there for two years and long term dream has always been to move there permanently. Living back in the UK is only strengthening that desire.
@11101, we’re on our way to Heathrow, flight back to Rome tomorrow morning. Am I right that this isn’t going to happen for a few days? It looks like it’ll start next week.
Perhaps I didn't understand your last post correctly. For clarity, I don't say that it isn't. If that's what you've taken from my post then fair enough. That's wasn't my intention.
I said, in my original post to which you replied:
"...My view, personally is that the need for that balance (as hard as it clearly is to find) should be something which we all recognise and which is at the forefront of the debate and decision making. We don't (again, in my opinion) see enough honesty on this from politicians."
I didn't say it wasn't at the forefront of the government's decision making process because, clearly (as I said) they pushed economic concerns to the forefront for a spell. Clearly tough decisions have to be, and are being taken. I refer to the "debate" above in terms of the general debate and a need to recognise that concerns other than the virus are relevant because I believe there are many that don't see it that way.
My point above, more generally (and perhaps clumsily worded, albeit I don't see the point of getting into semantics) is, as I say above and in my last post, I believe that we should see more honesty about it in terms of what the general public are told. We are in unique times and I personally have no problem with being told uncomfortable truths about why certain decisions have been taken, despite, as you say being sub-optimal.
Generally, (and again, in my opinion) messaging and communication from the Government has been poor both in respect of what measures are in place, why and (where possible) how long they'll be in place for. If better understood, perhaps we'd have more people willing to comply.
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I think that is a major issue where I'm from. Same measures in place here (town of 90k people, rate at 120 per 100k) and Liverpool (268 per 100k, for comparison) and it's a point our local politicians are making, along with the fact that there is no support for businesses or a roadmap out of this. We could drop below the 100 per 100,000 which is proposed to be the band limit in the new 3-tier system but I suspect we won't automatically come out of measures. Even if we do the uncertainty of how quickly they could come back creates real issues for businesses in planning, cash flow etc.
Maybe I misunderstood. Is your position that the public health measures they've taken now are made in full recognition of the economic costs, that their decision-making process has had balance at the forefront of their thinking, and that you just have a different opinion on what the right balance should be?
From the way you framed your argument, it sounded like you were saying they make these decisions without taking into account the knock on effects, and that you wanted to bring a more balanced perspective to the table. Almost everyone wants a balanced approach, they just have a different idea of balance. Advocating for public health measures doesn't imply that they don't recognise the economic effects, whether that's people in government or the public.
I agree the government are poor communicators but it doesn't surprise me given who was elected.
From what i can tell the new rules all come into force from 15th October, except for the masks which is immediate. It's not exactly clear yet as the new regulations were only approved this morning.
If you do need to take the test you can do it at the airport no problem.
Thanks, looks like we may be going home just in time.
Sturgeon in Holyrood announcing new restrictions. Whenever I hear her talk I can never understand why folk like Boris are so bad at it.
She's from Ayrshire which means that at this time of her day her blood is 70% gin.
She's from Ayrshire which means that at this time of her day her blood is 70% gin.
Didn't get the second Covid notification. Feel like Neo dodging that shit.
Only about a month late locking down the central belt. Quick enough to do it for Aberdeen and now it’s got out of control.
Sounds like tinder but you're actively rooting to not get a follow up message then.
Pubs & restaurants to close across central Scotland from Friday.
14162 cases and 70 deaths for UK
3145 in hospital
Interesting on the dashboard they have the 57k deaths stat on there.
3145 in hospital
Interesting on the dashboard they have the 57k deaths stat on there.
https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/07/eli-lilly-monoclonal-antibody-cocktail-covid-19/
The beginning of the end, it looks like?
The beginning of the end, it looks like?
I of course accept that behind the scenes, the Government is trying to keep the economy running whilst protecting the NHS and trying to keep loss of life and transmission of the virus to a minimum. What I'd like to see is more being made of that and a Government who will speak plainly about the need for balance, which has been lacking to date. For example, I appreciate nobody wants to openly say that there is an acceptable number of deaths from the virus to allow a functioning economy (thereby saving lives which may otherwise be lost), even if that is true.
As I said, we're in unprecedented times and I see no reason why politicians can't put the spin to one side and be honest. Maybe that allows the public to better understand the problems they're having to deal with and how complicated this all is. Maybe it makes people more sympathetic to others and perhaps, encourages people to follow the rules. Maybe it creates more "buy - in" if the Government says "here are the facts, this is why we've done what we've done". Maybe that's over optimistic.
It's almost as if, despite being in the biggest post-war crisis the country has seen, the public are seen as to soft, or too stupid to understand that it is impossible to fully suppress the virus and keep the economy running.
Being frank, who knows what the right balance is. I'm not sure it can ever be found 100%, or at least, as things change its something that needs to be kept constantly under review.
Yeah, I'd appreciate that a lot too. It's supposed to be one of the pillars of any successful strategy in dealing with scenarios like this; clear, consistent and transparent messaging. In the end we as a country elected a prime minister whose most noticeable quality prior to the election was sticking exceptionally closely to simple slogans on big issues which were neither true nor substantive. It's entirely predictable that he would stick to that same model in the next crisis, and the government would follow cue. We didn't elect someone that we thought would be good in a crisis, or if we did, we didn't think about that one very hard. It's due to a failure of the public, the media and the opposition political parties that we find ourselves in that scenario, so maybe next time we'll take the consequences more seriously. As it is we should hold them to account and demand more but, personally, I don't expect that to be delivered upon.
One thing to add is that they might have a good (and also terrible) reason for not being transparent: they're handling it very badly, and being more open would only lead to more civil disobedience (not less) among those who are fed up, while panicking those who already worry.
For example, if they were to talk about the contact tracing system openly, many more people would get this message:
So while a lot of the talk on here about contact tracing failures has been about the system, it has more to do with poor cooperation from society in part because they don't trust the entire government response. All it does is impose additional burdens on people without providing appropriate support, and it doesn't even work anyway, so why bother.
Side note: cooperation is even worse in France, the US, Germany.
Tougher restrictions for the north of England with 6pm closures of pubs and restaurant. Following Nicola Sturgeon’s lead.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54457377
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54457377
Inevitable.
Am I losing my mind?
This is the PHE data most recently released:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-covid-19-surveillance-reports
Figure 19 and 20 clearly show that workplaces and education settings are driving the wave and that hospitality has an absolutely negligible effect on it.
So why are we clambering over ourselves to argue about exactly how strict things should be, and not addressing the elephant in the room that it is simply not possible to teach kids safely and that employers have failed to make workplaces "covid secure".
I'm sure my moaning comes from a selfish place (hell, I know it does), but I simply cannot for the life of me understand why we're diverting all our attention to making miniscule changes to people's ability to actually do anything remotely fun over the next six months when it's such a tiny sticking plaster on the absolutely huge gaping wound that is education and workplaces.
This is the PHE data most recently released:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-covid-19-surveillance-reports
Figure 19 and 20 clearly show that workplaces and education settings are driving the wave and that hospitality has an absolutely negligible effect on it.
So why are we clambering over ourselves to argue about exactly how strict things should be, and not addressing the elephant in the room that it is simply not possible to teach kids safely and that employers have failed to make workplaces "covid secure".
I'm sure my moaning comes from a selfish place (hell, I know it does), but I simply cannot for the life of me understand why we're diverting all our attention to making miniscule changes to people's ability to actually do anything remotely fun over the next six months when it's such a tiny sticking plaster on the absolutely huge gaping wound that is education and workplaces.