I refuse to believe we would promise a novice a managerial position three years in advance. Who runs a company like that?
Ryan Giggs | United confirm he's left
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Giggs as assistant? Just wait for Scholes and co to get on Mourinho's case. It will definitely happen.
Surely he couldn't expect the CEO to divulge sensitive information on his boss's future at a time when the whole club was focused on salvaging the season. I do understand his POV but if he turned down good offers because of Woodward's word then I'm sorry he is not a good reader of situations because it was always clear that no matter how Van Gaal's reign ended Woodward and the Glazers would always go for the most decorated manager around. These guys are trying to buy trophies so as to maintain the value of sponsorships they can attract at a high level and consequently the club's market value which would allow them to sell off portions of their shareholding at high prices. Success on the pitch is central to their designs and they were never going to trust that on a novice after being led astray during the Ferguson succession.
He's not ready, and far from ready.
It's nothing personal Giggs
It's nothing personal Giggs
Merely speculating here, I think it could have been Woodward trying to smoothen relations with the old guard after the Moyes sacking which must have left a bitter taste in some mouths. I don't think he ever intended to fulfil that promise.
In general if I had to choose Id rather have a professional who knows how to do his job and who has a proven record in it then an incompetent whose loyal to the firm. The former will do his job and do it well until he decides to move elsewhere. The latter will probably stay there forever because he knows that no one would ever want him. Don't take me wrong I am speaking in general here not about Giggs and Faria. Although you have to admit that if someone like Mourinho whose mega competitive, keeps employing Faria, again and again, then he's good in his job isn't he? Its not as if he's that incompetent brother whose bro bailed him out because he just lost his job from some random Scottish club.
Well know one really knows that. In reality fans tend to have a one dimensional view of their legends. They idolise them and treat them as if they are some extension of the club. Its not the case. Its true that people tend to get attached to a job in a firm they had been working for many years especially if that firm gave them a golden ticket to richness. Having said that people change all the time, dreams and priorities at age 19-21 arent the same a decade later and if they are good enough they would seriously consider a different challenge to prove themselves or at least a change of scenery. Take SAF as an example. Do you think he's loyal to United? And yet he considered leaving United 3 times before he actually did. His bickering about that damn horse with 2 of United shareholders costed us big. Sir Matt overstayed at United which many consider the real reason of United's decline. Don't you think that these people understood that their actions damaged the club? Of course they did but humans are humans and their dreams and family will always come ahead of the company they work in. Its ridiculous to think that people are a beacon of unmoved loyalty especially when we're speaking about Ryan Giggs here who couldn't even be loyal towards his own brother.
We don't know whether Butt is ambitious or not. Having said that, what we can say is that his course of actions are way smarter then those of Giggs both in terms of United and that of personal development. He took a low job, he worked hard, he got promoted and stayed silent without ever overextending himself (or allowed others to do that on his behalf). He probably have more job security then Giggs and if he does leave he probably have more coaching experience then Giggs has
I'd still like Giggs to get some management experience out on his own somewhere, rather than us taking him on after Jose and just hoping that he's got what it takes. Spending his career under SAF, Moyes, LVG and maybe Mourinho is fantastic and few can say they have had the same, but look at Paul Clement - he assisted Ancelotti and Hiddink at Chelsea, and Ancelotti at Paris Saint-Germain and Real Madrid. He goes to Derby to be a manager on his own, and they sack him for underperforming. Steve McLaren could only win in Holland.
In terms of ex-players, Solskjaer worked wonders at Molde, and failed to impress with Cardiff. Keane has ended up as an assistant manager again. Steve Bruce is yoyo-ing with the Championship. Mark Hughes is actually the only one I can think of right now who has been able to get any kind of decent reputation for himself in the present day, and that's only at Stoke.
Sure, there's plenty of ex-players and ex-assistants at other clubs who have done fantastically well in management on their own, but we don't have too many examples of them from our own club. Giggs is a risk without him having his own experience too, and I don't think we should let ourselves be blinkered by loyalty to one of our own ahead of the success of the club as a whole. If he doesn't get ant experience in management somewhere else, i'd actually rather let Mark Hughes take over rather than Giggs, at this point. Not that Hughes is my first choice.
In terms of ex-players, Solskjaer worked wonders at Molde, and failed to impress with Cardiff. Keane has ended up as an assistant manager again. Steve Bruce is yoyo-ing with the Championship. Mark Hughes is actually the only one I can think of right now who has been able to get any kind of decent reputation for himself in the present day, and that's only at Stoke.
Sure, there's plenty of ex-players and ex-assistants at other clubs who have done fantastically well in management on their own, but we don't have too many examples of them from our own club. Giggs is a risk without him having his own experience too, and I don't think we should let ourselves be blinkered by loyalty to one of our own ahead of the success of the club as a whole. If he doesn't get ant experience in management somewhere else, i'd actually rather let Mark Hughes take over rather than Giggs, at this point. Not that Hughes is my first choice.
I'm sick of all this campaigning by the press to foist Giggs into some role with Mourinho, who is coming here to win and probably build his legacy. Someone like that has no inclination to 'mentor' someone looking to inherit his job. So why would Giggs want to hang around? Plus the club needs to concentrate on helping Mourinho to succeed, not worry about keeping a 43 year old millionaire in a role that he thinks is suitable for him. We haven't got time for this kind of indulgence. It also shows you how selfish Giggs is. Just thinking about his ambitions and not what the club needs right now. I'm sorry but it's a big turnoff from one of my favourite ever players.
Hot off the press: *Breaking News* Ryan Giggs offered new role at Manchester United - Wife Liaison Officer.
In all seriousness, he needs to leave and get some experience.
In all seriousness, he needs to leave and get some experience.
Dude, I am not a fan of Giggs, but it wouldn't be right to tell a club legend to "stay away" from the club.
At best, JM may take him as Assistant Manager.
More likely MUFC will offer him another role within the club.
At worst, he himself decides to leave the club and takes on a manager's role with another club.
We saw how well it went with LVG.
I doubt Faria is so "good". Try to apply your own logic here. If Faria is so good, why nobody else want him? Why does nobody offer him a promotion to management etc? Clearly he is only "good" when he assists Mourinho.
Of course the person employed by MU must be good at what he does. But here is the thing, a person who is loyal and has good skill is something different entirely. It can not just win trophies, but rather create a true dynasty, legacy even. If Mourinho and Giggs win PL with United, there is no comparison even which of these two occasions will be better received by fans. Also you look at the greatest successes and in many of them managers were connected to the club before. Like Anci, great manager, had good Real team, good Chelsea team, good Paris one. Was a success in every team, likely will continue that in Munich. But his greatest team? No doubt Milan that won to CLs, and was in 1/2 for 5-6 years or something like that.
I have no idea if Giggs will ever be United manager or will he succeed in that role. But the club understands that he does have a United's pedigree, that is why they are desperate to keep him.
It's jobs for the boys. And that's something you purport to hate. He's only ever worked for Mourinho in that role.
I'm sure I read a post from @Sly saying Faria has turned down the big 3 in Portugal.
Faria had grown along mou. They share the same experiences and they have great understanding. Also if he fails they bought fail and end up out of the club
Giggs started at a top job with a top team despite having no coaching experience whatsoever. He keeps being confirmed despite being part of two failed coaching teams.
Big respect for Pete, there. It's the logic thing for Giggs to do. Go out there, test your own footballing ideas in the real world, build a team of capable people you trust like all managers do, take responsibility, take blame, take credit, learn from your mistakes, and then let's see what you're made of (as a manager).
Not really how that phrase works.
Going back to someone for a service after being impressed by their qualities/performance, is not a "job for the boys" thing.
He wouldn't have got those jobs without his mate. You've claimed to hate that about Utd despite it being prevalent throughout all of football.
He's never worked for anyone else. Who else is hiring a fitness coach to follow them as assistant everywhere they go? He gets his jobs because of one person.
1. Getting a job because of "familiarity" when you haven't proven yourself in that role = jobs for the boys
2. Getting a job because of how well you did it last time, not so.
So Mourinho bringing Faria would fall into the second category.
Heso got a great relationship with mou. Why should he leave him now? He is an experIenced assistant who worked up to the top. He's also part of a coaching staff that is accountable. If they fail they are on the way out. Can you say the same about gigg's?
Mourinho was the first person to hire him in football. He had met him prior to this. Without Mourinho he wouldn't have a job in football. And never has.
I didn't say he should. Just pointing out something you've complained happens throughout football and you don't have issue with it now. I'm not sure I can. But then I'm not sure Giggs has failed. Are you? Is Brian Kidd one of the boys at Man City?
It's different though. Mou picked him as fitness coach when they worked with some small random club in Portugal. They grew together and they share similar experiences. If facia is inexperienced then so is mou. If they fail they both fail.
Giggs started immediately at a top club despite having zero coaching experience. He remains here irrespective on whether the coaching staff he is part of succeeds or fails.
It's not. He hired somebody he knew who had no experience. He's his mate. Same goes for Silvino Louro who has never worked for anyone else. They're the only ones who've followed Mourinho throughout his career and they all just happen to be Portugese. If they were so good why have they never worked for anyone else? Ever? I never said Faria was inexperienced but he was when he was given a job he'd never done before and had no footballing history whatsoever.
Giggs is one of many who have started coaching careers at big clubs with no previous experience of coaching. It's been a natural progression for years. We've yet to see if he remains here. His future should be dependant on whether he is good at his job and his boss wants him. Not the failings of others. The same way you wouldn't expect to be sacked just because your boss was shit.
It's pretty much nothing like that phrase. When Mourinho was a nobody he saw someone with a similar background as him and presumably with ideas and thought-process, that he rated and identified with.
From wiki
Had Mourinho given a job to, say his brother, it would give your statement legitimacy.
So he met somebody he liked and gave him a job he'd not done before at a football club when he'd had no career in football previously?
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/212000.html
That's the first link in Google for jobs for the boys. Read it and explain how that doesn't apply to Rui Faria or Silvino Louro?
Since you are speaking so much sense in this thread, surely it should occur to you that Mourinho giving the job to Rui Faria some 15 years back at a small club in Portugal is so much different than getting the assistant manager job at a global club like Manchester United, especially with the past two failures against Ryan's name?
I am a big of Giggs becoming our manager in the future, but not solely on the basis of his playing career and a long connection with the club. He really needs to get out of his comfort zone and prove his credentials elsewhere. I am not talking about a League 2 club or the Wales national team, as it won't prove much in terms of managing a top Premier League club, but a club like Everton, Swansea or even Derby would I think show what he can do. I may be wrong, but it seems at times he thinks he deserves to be the manager simply because Ryan Giggs the player and serving as an assistant to Moyes and Van Gaal. Well, they are both failed regimes and you don't get to manage United that easily.
Indeed. Rui Faria has worked his way up from "the bottom" along with Mourinho. Giggs is footballing royalty being offered a comfortable seat upon retirement.
But he started at Uniao. They did their entire career together, and when Mourinho gets sacked, so does Faria (unlike Giggs who survived his last two bosses and who got immediately a big job). Faria is responsible for his job, he does well and so Mourinho keeps him, if he doesn't do well, either Mourinho doesn't keep him anymore, or his bad work affect Mourinho and they get both sacked.
It is different for example, to that guy who failed on a small Scotish club, and then got a job as chief scout in one of the biggest clubs in the world because his brother happened to be manager there. How was he called?
He was 25 when he got his job with Mourinho. How many jobs was he supposed to have at that time?
I have no issue with Mourinho picking who he wants to work with him. Utd obviously hoped to groom Giggs into the job and it hasn't worked out. I don't agree with pinning the failures on Giggs with no knowledge of what he's done and I can't stand Devilish's transparent hypocrisy on these matters.
He may be very good at what he does. I've never seen him work. There's no doubting why he got his job though. It wasn't qualifications and experience that's for sure.
They're not too different really. They both got jobs because of who they knew. Martin Ferguson had jobs outside of working for his brother. Faria hasn't had any outside of working for his mate.
A few points:
1. "Jobs for the boys" is a term which emphasizes on "familiarity" with the individual being the key factor. It's not necessarily applicable in all cases where the person hasn't done that job before. If I meet someone who I believe could do great things and hire him that would be a misapplication of the phrase "jobs for the boys".
2. Rui Faria, as the bit above states, had a similar background (physical education + no professional career) to Jose Mourinho, and was attending a seminar at the Camp Nou. You're assuming that Mourinho wasn't impressed with his potential and like-minded thinking, and hired him on the basis of that, insinuating that he got the job because he was a "buddy" i.e said "familiarity" rather than his potential. How do you explain that particular leap?
3. Jose Mourinho was managing a tiny club. I'm guessing you're doing for the Giggs/Scholes/CO92 angle here when you're making this "Jobs for Boys" statement, and while I didn't use the term for them, the difference in size between United and whatever the feck that club was, is hugely relevant. Giving someone who is mere potential is somewhat alright at the latter, but doing that at one of the biggest jobs in the entire sport, is really not.
Peter speaking sense for once.
If he wasn't good at his work, would Mourinho have kept him?
And he didn't got the job cause he was Mourinho's mate, but because Mourinho saw something on him and gave him a very small job (fitness coach) and then got gradual upgrades until he became assistant manager.
It is completely different with Martin Ferguson's who actually failed at a small club, but then got the job as chief scout at the biggest English club. Or to Ryan Giggs who became a coach at United without any coaching experience, and then got promoted to assistant manager despite that was a part of a regime which miserably failed and every member of it got sacked. And then the next regime failed again and got sacked but not Giggs.
I wouldn't care either way if Giggs didn't want the big job now. If he thinks that he is ready for the job of manager of United, then why on Earth he might still stay as coach (not assistant manager) or manager of U21, both jobs being downgrades of the previous one? Even a job in League One would be a more prestigious job than an U-21 manager. The only explanation is that he is scared to go and manage somewhere else, cause then he might fail and so lose any chance at the United job. But if he is scared to do so, then why shouldn't we be scared to ever give him the job.
It doesn't emphasise on familiarity at all. It focuses on coming from a similar background. Which they do.
I'm making no further assumption on why he got the job than you did. I have the tangible fact that nobody else has ever hired him mind you.
He was. I was only serving to point to the fact 'jobs for the boys' is not exclusive to Manchester United or Ryan Giggs, Nicky Butt or whoever which has been bandied about here as if it's an example of Utd's failings. It happens throughout football. Even at tiny Portugese clubs as has been evidenced. How did Zidane and Guardiola get their starts if not for who they knew or where they played?
I don't know. Probably not. I haven't commented on his quality at all or whether Mourinho rates him highly. Just correctly pointing out he wouldn't be in football without him. That's evidentiary fact. If Giggs was no good would Utd not get rid of him?
Martin Ferguson didn't do well as a manager. But he didn't get a managers job so it's not really relevant how he did as a manager. He's hardly the first person to do badly in one specific and do well in a different one. Of course he wouldn't have got it had it not been for his brother but it only goes to further prove the point that it is rife in football and always has been. It only seemed to become an issue for people here in the last year or two.
There is an other explanation. Perhaps he likes working at Manchester United. Crazy thought though that is.
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