Ryan Giggs | United confirm he's left

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acnumber9 said:
I'd love to know how all the people criticising Giggs for being a little unhappy would react to being told that they were next in line for a job and then got demoted. I'm sure they'd agree that they were entitled twats if they were annoyed about it.
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Yes, I agree. I don't mind Ed Woodward but so many things - from the way Rio was treated to the various sackings to this situation - suggest that he's either cowardly, indecisive or craven.
 
Pexbo said:
I wonder how Van Gaal feels about being told he was on a 3 year contract but only getting 2 years?
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Disappointed obviously. I don't think people should be having a go at somebody's sense of 'entitlement' for not not wanting to be sacked/demoted. Would you want it?
 
acnumber9 said:
I'd love to know how all the people criticising Giggs for being a little unhappy would react to being told that they were next in line for a job and then got demoted. I'm sure they'd agree that they were entitled twats if they were annoyed about it.
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I find it very difficult to believe this wasn't a discussion had with Giggs. A discussion to go over the reasons why they need a manager of Mourinho's ilk after three years of poor/sub-standard management and why risking an inexperienced manager is not the way to go.

Obviously Giggs has every right to be disappointed but there's a difference between that and him not seeing the logic/context of the current club situation and feeling like that job belongs to him.

As said before, if his main goal is to be a manager and not just progressively moving his way up the ranks at United, then he only has one option.
 
SteveJ said:
Yes, I agree. I don't mind Ed Woodward but so many things - from the way Rio was treated to the various sackings to this situation - suggest that he's either cowardly, indecisive or craven.
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It does strike me as a little cowardly. He could just have zero people skills though. More the Rio Ferdinand thing in this instance. At the moment we don't know what conversation he had with Giggs about this.
 
SteveJ said:
Yes, I agree. I don't mind Ed Woodward but so many things - from the way Rio was treated to the various sackings to this situation - suggest that he's either cowardly, indecisive or craven.
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Woody is a dick. Most of us can agree on that.
 
Minimalist said:
I find it very difficult to believe this wasn't a discussion had with Giggs. A discussion to go over the reasons why they need a manager of Mourinho's ilk after three years of poor/sub-standard management and why risking an inexperienced manager is not the way to go.

Obviously Giggs has every right to be disappointed but there's a difference between that and him not seeing the logic/context of the current club situation and feeling like that job belongs to him.

As said before, if his main goal is to be a manager and not just progressively moving his way up the ranks at United, then he only has one option.
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That is a very good reason not to give him the job. It's why I wouldn't want him to have it at this stage.

I'm not sure how we can gauge what Giggs' feelings are. I don't see anything wrong with him believing in himself though. It would be worse if he didn't.

My opinion is his managerial ambitions are limited to Manchester United. He's achieved a lot here and probably wants to stay. I wouldn't be surprised if he never manages. What I fail to understand is why that loyalty is worthy of derision.
 
acnumber9 said:
I'd love to know how all the people criticising Giggs for being a little unhappy would react to being told that they were next in line for a job and then got demoted. I'm sure they'd agree that they were entitled twats if they were annoyed about it.
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If it's true Woodward made that kind of promise to Giggs, it was very naive of Woodward to do that. On the other side, while i can understand Giggs expecting a promise to be fulfilled, but it would be naive on his part to expect that he'd definitely be van Gaal's successor whatever happened. Things change, circumstances change and surely he would accept that when Jose Mourinho is available and wants to be United's manager, there's only one outcome.
 
acnumber9 said:
That is a very good reason not to give him the job. It's why I wouldn't want him to have it at this stage.

I'm not sure how we can gauge what Giggs' feelings are. I don't see anything wrong with him believing in himself though. It would be worse if he didn't.

My opinion is his managerial ambitions are limited to Manchester United. He's achieved a lot here and probably wants to stay. I wouldn't be surprised if he never manages. What I fail to understand is why that loyalty is worthy of derision.
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Derision or not, it's not really loyalty is it? It's looks very much like a reluctance to step out on his own because he's far too comfortable at United.
 
acnumber9 said:
That is a very good reason not to give him the job. It's why I wouldn't want him to have it at this stage.

I'm not sure how we can gauge what Giggs' feelings are. I don't see anything wrong with him believing in himself though. It would be worse if he didn't.

My opinion is his managerial ambitions are limited to Manchester United. He's achieved a lot here and probably wants to stay. I wouldn't be surprised if he never manages. What I fail to understand is why that loyalty is worthy of derision.
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I agree with that. He understandably wants to manage United one day and i don't think he's keen to do something that he believes might put that in jeopardy. Managing away from United could do just that.

Given the education he's had; playing under Sir Alex Ferguson he ought to have learnt a thing or two and spending two seasons learning from another man who's had a great career, Louis van Gaal i think he's got plenty to offer another club not named Manchester United.
 
Minimalist said:
Derision or not, it's not really loyalty is it? It's looks very much like a reluctance to step out on his own because he's far too comfortable at United.
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He's been a very loyal part of this club, to presume otherwise is very unfair - especially since you personally have no clue.
 
Barca84 said:
I don't want him to get the job for football reasons.
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Same here.
His sexual affairs are neither here nor there.
He is not qualified to manage a club of the size/stature of MUFC.

With regards to Zidane: Madrid have the set up and players to win the CL and compete for the league. We do not.
So, we cannot afford to gamble on "trainees". We need as close to a sure thing as we can get. The Glazers and Woodward also saw things this way, so decided to hire Jose.
 
acnumber9 said:
I'd love to know how all the people criticising Giggs for being a little unhappy would react to being told that they were next in line for a job and then got demoted. I'm sure they'd agree that they were entitled twats if they were annoyed about it.
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I think it was LVG who stated that Giggs would be the next manager (or at least that was the plan).
However, things did not go according to plan.
LVG created a highly defensive brand of football (which Giggs went along with) and we finished in 5th place. There was no progress.

So, LVG got fired and the previous plans were re-written.

I do wonder, though, did Giggs ever speak up against LVG's boring brand of football? And if he did, what did LVG say in reply. Or did he keep his mouth shut and allow LVG to hang himself?
 
sunama said:
I do wonder, though, did Giggs ever speak up against LVG's boring brand of football? And if he did, what did LVG say in reply. Or did he keep his mouth shut and allow LVG to hang himself?
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No idea. But an assistant manager can be anything. Or many things, at least. It's by no means obvious that standing up to the manager in a dramatic fashion is what any AM should do.

To Giggs' detractors it's very convenient that he's the common denominator in two failed regimes - and so forth - but it's a simplistic take on it. We don't know precisely what sort of input he was contributing, nor to what extent his own "philosophy" was in line with LVG's.

Having been the AM of a failure doesn't equate to him being a poor coach, which is what we should be discussing here.
 
...the mist is clearing....in the crystal i see....i see...a beautiful stranger....
 
It was easy to see that VG was underperforming, despite ending on the cup win. It's not quite as easy to judge Giggs' work, we're just guessing really. Whenever the camera panned to him and VG sitting there though, seeing any dialogue between the two was a rarity.

It's very unusual to keep on a guy who had a key job in two failed management teams also. Not sure what the plan is, keep shoehorning him into management teams until we deem he's "ready", or we've got back to the top?

Probably Giggs' best chance of our job is hanging around like this. I can't see him going elsewhere and doing exceptionally well enough to be considered. We've seen the likes of Bruce, Hughes, Robson and so on win promotions, get to finals and get top half finishes, but none were really ever a realistic consideration.
 
Sandikan said:
Not sure what the plan is, keep shoehorning him into management teams until we deem he's "ready", or we've got back to the top?
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Hard to tell precisely what the owners' or Woody's plan amounts to. But if the original intention was to let him take over a genuine top team, a balanced squad and all the rest of it, after 3 successful years of LVG - well, that makes some sense.

That would be comparable to certain precedents - and the basic idea of having a club legend manage United isn't outlandish as such, nor is it surprising that it might appeal to Woody from a marketing perspective, etc.

Now? Who knows. It seems a bit strange to cling on to the same idea, only now with a different manager in charge, but I suppose it's possible that the club still feel Giggs is so potentially valuable from a marketing viewpoint (or whatever the case may be on the detail plane) that they want to stick to the plan (or a new version of the same plan).

They're not foolish enough to force Giggs on Mourinho, though - I don't think he was forced on LVG either. If he stays, in whatever capacity, it will be with Mourinho's blessing. As for Giggs himself, I don't have any strong opinions on what he should do. It depends entirely on what his ambitions are. If he wants to become a manager, not a United manager, I'd leave if I were him.
 
I think we should just conclude that Giggs will not be promoted into the head coach/manager role, no matter how long he hangs around for. MUFC have shareholders that they are answerable to, appointment of a key role such as head coach does impact the share price, and ultimately the CEO is answerable to the owners and shareholders. At work I would not expect to be appointed into a senior exec role just because I'd been at the company 30 years.
 
Minimalist said:
Derision or not, it's not really loyalty is it? It's looks very much like a reluctance to step out on his own because he's far too comfortable at United.
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Well it is. Given the criticism he's attracting for wanting to stay at the club. People didn't complain he felt too comfortable when he was playing.
 
Sky1981 said:
If im doing a good job probably a demotion will piss me off

He's doing a shit job (or not doing a job), he should be grateful he got u21 team to manage to his heart content and not booted out
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You have zero idea what kind of job he's doing. And stating it over and over doesn't make your point stronger or make you appear clever.
 
sunama said:
I think it was LVG who stated that Giggs would be the next manager (or at least that was the plan).
However, things did not go according to plan.
LVG created a highly defensive brand of football (which Giggs went along with) and we finished in 5th place. There was no progress.

So, LVG got fired and the previous plans were re-written.

I do wonder, though, did Giggs ever speak up against LVG's boring brand of football? And if he did, what did LVG say in reply. Or did he keep his mouth shut and allow LVG to hang himself?
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Those are questions none of us have the answer to. Which is why I'd prefer not to commit to an opinion on it. If Mourinho wants him as part of the coaching staff then I think people should lay off the criticism. If he doesn't then I can still see why Giggs would be disappointed. Working in football doesn't make people exempt from basic human emotion and Giggs shouldn't be making his decision based on what a bunch of strangers think.
 
Mitchell Nicholas said:
I agree with that. He understandably wants to manage United one day and i don't think he's keen to do something that he believes might put that in jeopardy. Managing away from United could do just that.

Given the education he's had; playing under Sir Alex Ferguson he ought to have learnt a thing or two and spending two seasons learning from another man who's had a great career, Louis van Gaal i think he's got plenty to offer another club not named Manchester United.
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It's a tough spot he finds himself in. He's had a longer playing career than most and therefore less time to build a career in management. He's also stuck around seemingly under the promise that if all went well he was next in line. Obviously it hasn't worked out that way and I'd say his best chance of managing Utd has come and passed now. Which I find a shame because I would've loved to see it happen and be successful. It's just too big a risk currently.
 
If he stays around, it seems like some fans and possibly the board are always willing to give him the "oh, he was just an assistant and we don't know what he was doing, so he's not at fault for the failed management" immunity. It's a position that (inappropriately) protects him from major criticisms and therefore maximizes his chance of taking over as a manager.

From the club's perspective, if you keep around a guy who has a big influence among the players (especially the senior players that he's personally good friends with) and has an incentive to see the current manager sacked as soon as possible... well you can guess what might happen from there. I just hope Woodward and Glazers can see that.
 
acnumber9 said:
You have zero idea what kind of job he's doing. And stating it over and over doesn't make your point stronger or make you appear clever.
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Oh i have a good idea. Where were you this last 3 years?

Where's the United value and tradition he promised us?

We got more leakages than titanic, oh i do have a good idea what he's been doing, either some very shit job or nothing at all.

Wake up and smell the coffee
 
Sky1981 said:
Oh i have a good idea. Where were you this last 3 years?

Where's the United value and tradition he promised us?

We got more leakages than titanic, oh i do have a good idea what he's been doing, either some very shit job or nothing at all.

Wake up and smell the coffee
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You have zero idea and pretending you do does you no favours. If your boss is shit at his job does that make you shit? Have you ever had a boss and been happy to take the flak for their mistakes?
 
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At the end of the day, whatever happens with Mourinho, you can use to argue against Giggs following him.

If he makes a monumental success, it'll be clear he had the best chance to, due to his experience of winning with some of the biggest clubs.
If he screws up, it'll re-inforce how hard a job it is, and make it an even sillier prospect to give it to a novice.

The pure romantic idea that VG would follow that distinct plan of top 4, then win league, then compete/win in Europe, before handing over to Giggs to maintain it is amazing. We'd just seen a guy with tonnes more experience than Giggs pick up a team that romped to the league and take them to seventh.
 
acnumber9 said:
You have zero idea what kind of job he's doing. And stating it over and over doesn't make your point stronger or make you appear clever.
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Given the two coaching set-ups he's been part of have been failures and at best he is now being offered a demotion by those who know better than us should be a good indicator of how he is doing.
 
acnumber9 said:
You have zero idea and pretending you do does you no favours. If your boss is shit at his job does that make you shit? Have you ever had a boss and been happy to take the flak for their mistakes?
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Like i said, he's either doing a shit job or he's having no input and the blame lies with his boss

You know nothing of his job, neither do i. But the team performance on the pitch doesnt lie.

Ps: but i do know jose is miles better than giggs. We do not know how good is phil neville, should we consider him for the job? Or rio? Or evra? Or carrick while we're at it?
 
Sky1981 said:
Like i said, he's either doing a shit job or he's having no input and the blame lies with his boss

You know nothing of his job, neither do i. But the team performance on the pitch doesnt lie.

Ps: but i do know jose is miles better than giggs. We do not know how good is phil neville, should we consider him for the job? Or rio? Or evra? Or carrick while we're at it?
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I'm not the one claiming I know how good he is at his job. As for the last bit we're talking about Giggs as coach. Not as manager.
 
Ixion said:
Given the two coaching set-ups he's been part of have been failures and at best he is now being offered a demotion by those who know better than us should be a good indicator of how he is doing.
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It could be. Though Mourinho is bringing coaches with him so clearly that plays its part too. That those in the know want to keep him would suggest he's not an incompetent moron.
 
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