Ryan Giggs | United confirm he's left

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acnumber9 said:
I don't know. Probably not. I haven't commented on his quality at all or whether Mourinho rates him highly. Just correctly pointing out he wouldn't be in football without him. That's evidentiary fact. If Giggs was no good would Utd not get rid of him?

Martin Ferguson didn't do well as a manager. But he didn't get a managers job so it's not really relevant how he did as a manager. He's hardly the first person to do badly in one specific and do well in a different one. Of course he wouldn't have got it had it not been for his brother but it only goes to further prove the point that it is rife in football and always has been. It only seemed to become an issue for people here in the last year or two.

There is an other explanation. Perhaps he likes working at Manchester United. Crazy thought though that is.
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Here is a thought, maybe its being highlighted at Manchester United now because of the failure we have had during the last three seasons. A manager and his backroom staff are tightly knit teams where the ability to trust one another and their ideas is key - in this vein how in hell is Giggs going to be trusted in Mourinho's circle and his ideas given a fair hearing when they know that he doesn't have the same accountability as them?
 
acnumber9 said:
You pointed out the exact factors of 'jobs for the boys' and Faria qualified under that description. I didn't. That was your definition of it while telling me I didn't understand it. The meaning of the phrase is obvious which is why you arguing it is bonkers. It applies to Faria every bit as much as Giggs.

You're saying with fact that Faria doesn't qualify as jobs for the boys as he must've impressed Mourinho in a seminar. Why is the reason Giggs is in the position he is not because of what he demonstrated over a 20 year career? When thinking of the answer remember Faria is not only a man who hadn't worked in football but hadn't worked at all.
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Jaysus you're making hard work of this. I haven't mentioned Giggs yet, I will now since you're so adamant to beat that drum.

A) This is my take on Faria with respect to the phrase:
if I meet someone and he impresses me with his ideas, thoughts, and hence, potential, leading to his being hired, then he's been hired on merit. To debate this is purely agenda-driven drivel. And it appears as though, based on Attila's post, this was the case with Faria.
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Now if you disagree with this let me know.

B) This is my take on Giggs: If Giggs is hired as manager of Manchester United, I don't think the phrase would apply to him either. I think it would be a huge mistake, but he's been assistant manager for awhile and at the club for ages, so I imagine the decision to make him manager would be based on our judgement of his potential to succeed. Let me know if you disagree.
 
itso 7 said:
Here is a thought, maybe its being highlighted at Manchester United now because of the failure we have had during the last three seasons. A manager and his backroom staff are tightly knit teams where the ability to trust one another and their ideas is key - in this vein how in hell is Giggs going to be trusted in Mourinho's circle and his ideas given a fair hearing when they know that he doesn't have the same accountability as them?
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Here's a thought. Maybe Giggs isn't a bad coach. Your entire post is based on him being useless. You have no idea whether he is or isn't. If Mourinho doesn't want him then it should be his decision. If he does then hopefully it works out. If he doesn't I'll be sorry to see Giggs go as he's been part of Manchester United for a long time and I'd like to see him do well here. Crazy thought I know.
 
If he'd gone out on his own from the off and done well, instead of attaching himself to three years of mismanagement, he'd probably be ready to come back and take the reigns right now.

As it is, he has more to prove than he did three years ago.
 
It's all very well to say Giggs needs to "prove" himself elsewhere, but just what would he need to do elsewhere to achieve said "proven"" status?

Say he went to Swansea for instance. Top ten would probably be the best they could hope for. Would Giggs taking Swansea to 10th twice in a row be enough? Or would we need him to do something amazing like Leicester had done, say top 4, win a cup etc?

Moyesie had some seasons knocking on the door of top 4, and proved to be woefully under the level needed.

At one stage, Bruce, Hughes and Robson were always sounded as potential future managers, but now the Moyes thing has happened, those sort of appointments are surely right on the backburner.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Jaysus you're making hard work of this. I haven't mentioned Giggs yet, I will now since you're so adamant to beat that drum.

A) This is my take on Faria with respect to the phrase: Now if you disagree with this let me know.

B) This is my take on Giggs: If Giggs is hired as manager of Manchester United, I don't think the phrase would apply to him either. I think it would be a huge mistake, but he's been assistant manager for awhile and at the club for ages, so I imagine the decision to make him manager would be based on our judgement of his potential to succeed. Let me know if you disagree.
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Any solid opinion on the matter can only be formed on inside knowledge that neither of us have. I think both obtained the positions they did not just because of any ability they have but because of their circumstances. In Faria's case it helps that he's Portugese and similar to Mourinho. In the case of Ryan Giggs it obviously helps that he was a great player for Manchester United. I also think Giggs was demonstrably more qualified for a position in football than Rui Faria was when they both started their careers. My issue is with how Giggs is being treated as if he's some kind of unique situation manipulating the entire charade like some form of demigod.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Let me get this straight: You think, then, presumably, that if we offer him a coaching job of some kind, we - the club, the board, Ed Woodward, Mourinho for all we know - have been duped somehow by Giggs? Is that it? They think he's just another hard worker - oblivious to the truth, which is that he will go to work undermining Mourinho from day one?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what it is you're afraid of. He's after the manager's job? What exactly does that mean? He's willing to go over dead bodies for it - here and now? Or that he'd like to manage United one day? There's a difference, right?
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It's not about being duped. It's about having someone in the system who is after someone else's job. I don't think it's healthy.

Obviously Giggs could be completely loyal. Or he could be a bastard about it and go around talking badly about Mourinho and how he'd do things. Sort of like Avram Grant did before guess who was fired from Chelsea...

If he wants to be the United manager the right way, there's absolutely no point in staying in a role that if things are done the right way, should never give him the role.
 
Sandikan said:
It's all very well to say Giggs needs to "prove" himself elsewhere, but just what would he need to do elsewhere to achieve said "proven"" status?

Say he went to Swansea for instance. Top ten would probably be the best they could hope for. Would Giggs taking Swansea to 10th twice in a row be enough? Or would we need him to do something amazing like Leicester had done, say top 4, win a cup etc?

Moyesie had some seasons knocking on the door of top 4, and proved to be woefully under the level needed.

At one stage, Bruce, Hughes and Robson were always sounded as potential future managers, but now the Moyes thing has happened, those sort of appointments are surely right on the backburner.
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You're right, and the reality is he's dammed if he stays, and dammed if he goes.

The least risky option is to stick about in the hope he gets the job at some point, because if he goes the chance he takes on managing a mid ranking club are huge for him, but personally I hope he does it and he can do something unexpected.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
You're right, and the reality is he's dammed if he stays, and dammed if he goes.

The least risky option is to stick about in the hope he gets the job at some point, because if he goes the chance he takes on managing a mid ranking club are huge for him, but personally I hope he does it and he can do something unexpected.
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People have said it to joke, but imagine he went to Salford.
With his presence, and their club no doubt having much bigger resources than most in those sort of divisions, he could really cut his teeth with less pressure than the very top.
Would be exceptionally humbling though.
 
Sandikan said:
It's all very well to say Giggs needs to "prove" himself elsewhere, but just what would he need to do elsewhere to achieve said "proven"" status?

Say he went to Swansea for instance. Top ten would probably be the best they could hope for. Would Giggs taking Swansea to 10th twice in a row be enough? Or would we need him to do something amazing like Leicester had done, say top 4, win a cup etc?

Moyesie had some seasons knocking on the door of top 4, and proved to be woefully under the level needed.

At one stage, Bruce, Hughes and Robson were always sounded as potential future managers, but now the Moyes thing has happened, those sort of appointments are surely right on the backburner.
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If he was to take charge of Swansea, for example, and get them into Europe while playing aggressive, attractive football then people would sit up and take notice. If he made some clever signings and seemed to have a canny eye for talent then, again, that would be acknowledged.

If he's lucky and successful enough, then a bigger club would give him a shot, similar to how Pochettino got a crack at the Spurs job. Second season in, Pochettino has already (half) challenged for a title and appears to be destined for even bigger and better things.

Why can't Giggs do that?
 
acnumber9 said:
Any solid opinion on the matter can only be formed on inside knowledge that neither of us have. I think both obtained the positions they did not just because of any ability they have but because of their circumstances. In Faria's case it helps that he's Portugese and similar to Mourinho. In the case of Ryan Giggs it obviously helps that he was a great player for Manchester United. I also think Giggs was demonstrably more qualified for a position in football than Rui Faria was when they both started their careers. My issue is with how Giggs is being treated as if he's some kind of unique situation manipulating the entire charade like some form of demigod.
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I don't disagree with any of that. So we're so we're actually on the same page on most things here.

However, I will add that the bolded bit is true for a lot of appointments/recruitment and that doesn't necessarily mean that the phrase applies to them. If I see some of my own values and attributes in a potential employee, it doesn't mean that the appointment wouldn't be based on merit.
 
If he's smart, he'll take the U21s job while also trying to learn more from Mourinho. People underestimate the importance of watching and studying the work of experienced, top-class managers. Too many former players accept coaching jobs from lower level teams thinking that jumping right in is the way to go. Often, however, it's not.
 
Sandikan said:
People have said it to joke, but imagine he went to Salford.
With his presence, and their club no doubt having much bigger resources than most in those sort of divisions, he could really cut his teeth with less pressure than the very top.
Would be exceptionally humbling though.
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He could, but not sure it'd help get the United job any time soon.

His best bet would be Everton, but doubt they'd take the risk tbh.
 
Amir said:
It's not about being duped. It's about having someone in the system who is after someone else's job. I don't think it's healthy.

Obviously Giggs could be completely loyal. Or he could be a bastard about it and go around talking badly about Mourinho and how he'd do things. Sort of like Avram Grant did before guess who was fired from Chelsea...

If he wants to be the United manager the right way, there's absolutely no point in staying in a role that if things are done the right way, should never give him the role.
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Well, that's assuming again either that he's after the job in anything resembling an untoward way, or that he depends entirely on the current manager being a failure. We don't even know to what extent he is after the job. People are taking this too far: Not wanting him as our next manager is a perfectly reasonable stance as far as I'm concerned – objecting to his very presence at the club is something else entirely.

People are assuming that Giggs feels entitled to the job, and that he thinks he will eventually get it simply by sticking around. Implication: He's a fraud of some sort, lazy, not willing to work hard to impress anyone. That could be true, but it's completely unfounded, pure speculation. He might think that staying at United, gaining experience as a coach in some capacity, is the right thing to do.

Others are all but declaring that he's a snake who will try to undermine the competition. That's also unfounded – borderline libelous, even.
 
Sandikan said:
It's all very well to say Giggs needs to "prove" himself elsewhere, but just what would he need to do elsewhere to achieve said "proven"" status?

Say he went to Swansea for instance. Top ten would probably be the best they could hope for. Would Giggs taking Swansea to 10th twice in a row be enough? Or would we need him to do something amazing like Leicester had done, say top 4, win a cup etc?

Moyesie had some seasons knocking on the door of top 4, and proved to be woefully under the level needed.

At one stage, Bruce, Hughes and Robson were always sounded as potential future managers, but now the Moyes thing has happened, those sort of appointments are surely right on the backburner.
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You see that's the problem right there, people who get to to the top of their field usually achieve something special no matter where they are for example Mourinho's CL win with Porto, Alex Ferguson breaking the Old Firm's duopoly on the Scottish title etc. Another way, which I don't believe to be possible in this league, is being a legendary ex-player that is given a world class squad that will win or finish in a respectable position like Pep and Zizou got their starts. Giggs is unlucky in that Moyes showed how bad it can get if a club in this league made a wrong managerial appointment so the only way he will get the job is by going away and impressing to a level that Koeman/Pochettino took So'ton whereby he achieves top half finishes whilst playing an impressive style and showing skill in the market.
If he sticks around and waits for Mourinho to implode he might get a look in, mid season and get a chance to impress. The problem with that is what if, like they did with Van Gaal, United wait till the end of the season because if they do, in that situation, the Glazers are always going to demand a big name manager and who knows who will be available or making an impression then?
I believe that Giggs has had the right preparation, has the connections to land a job and sign players on favourable terms so if he chooses the right club he will succeed and grow enough as a manager to earn the United job in the future.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Others are all but declaring that he's a snake who will try to undermine the competition. That's also unfounded – borderline libelous, even.
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I'll take my chances. I want what's best for United. And I still don't know what Ryan Giggs does so wel as a coach or whatever that justifies him having a role at the club.
 
Ryan Giggs being given the keys to the manager's office and hiring Phil and Gary Neville, Scholes, Beckham and upgrading Butt's current role should not be allowed to happen. The coaching experience among them is being part of two failed regimes (and surving both), a failed regime at Valencia, assistant coach to England, youth coach and in Scholes' part absolute zilch. None of them with the exception of the Nevilles have spread their wings and gained experience out of a comfort zone and they haven't been successful. This group are friends, former team mates, business partners. Little experience in coaching and none together, and the experience they have is mostly failure. Jobs for the boys.

Contrast with Mourinho and Faria who progressed up the ranks from the bottom together. Meeting at a coaching seminar shows their strive to exchange ideas with others. Being trusting of each other through tough times and seeing evolution of their teams and careers to enjoy great success. They are a winning partnership and proven again and again.

Look at the legendary Clough-Taylor partnership. Both met playing in the Middlesbrough team of the 50s in the second division. Clough had a successful club career becoming an international, Taylor did not but while at Boro they already worked on coaching youngsters back at a time when football was not a rewarding career. Fast forward to Clough's first job with Hartlepool - 4th Division. They started together from the lowest rank and progressed to back-to-back European Champions while not forgetting winning the title with Derby a year after promotion. Neither were the same without each other. Clough at Leeds and latter years at Forest. Taylor as a manager in his own right. Together along with Jimmy Gordon they were special. Taylor never worked as assistant to anyone else but Clough. That's a bond Mourinho and Faria have which grew stronger as a result of working upwards rather being gifted the top post.
 
Amir said:
I'll take my chances. I want what's best for United. And I still don't know what Ryan Giggs does so wel as a coach or whatever that justifies him having a role at the club.
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You don't know - that's right. I don't know either, so I'm no better.

But let's look at this from a "jobs for the boys" perspective, just for the sake of argument: Whose boy is Giggs?
 
Amir said:
I'll take my chances. I want what's best for United. And I still don't know what Ryan Giggs does so wel as a coach or whatever that justifies him having a role at the club.
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What about the potential cost of losing a promising young coach who seems to be highly valued by the club? Do you not mind that possibility?
 
Boycott said:
Ryan Giggs being given the keys to the manager's office and hiring Phil and Gary Neville, Scholes, Beckham and upgrading Butt's current role should not be allowed to happen.
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Oh man back to this again.
 
If Giggs doesn't leave now then (for me) he has no ambition to be a manager at all, never mind a top one.

Far too comfortable for the past three years. If he wants to just work for United, that's fine but he had best be satisfied with a coaching role.
 
Shamwow said:
What about the potential cost of losing a promising young coach who seems to be highly valued by the club? Do you not mind that possibility?
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I wonder what makes him promising.

The fact that he's valued by the club - if it's even a fact - is a bit of a problem because I'm not sure who we've got to fairly evaluate his abilities.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
But let's look at this from a "jobs for the boys" perspective, just for the sake of argument: Whose boy is Giggs?
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The club's. He's the glamour boy, a symbolic figure at a time big changes are made, a link to the past.

I just fear this is what's keeping him around rather than his coaching abilities.
 
Amir said:
I wonder what makes him promising.

The fact that he's valued by the club - if it's even a fact - is a bit of a problem because I'm not sure who we've got to fairly evaluate his abilities.
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The club wouldn't offer him a paying job if they didn't value him. It's pretty much the literal meaning of the word.

Have you heard anyone at all in the media say a bad word about his coaching abilities or doubt them? I've heard nothing but praise from all sorts of different people. If people were saying the same stuff about a promising young coach from another club you'd be lapping it up.
 
Amir said:
The club's. He's the glamour boy, a symbolic figure at a time big changes are made, a link to the past.

I just fear this is what's keeping him around rather than his coaching abilities.
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Well, he could be both: A link to the past and a good coach. Wanting to keep a link to the past at the club isn't insane in itself - it's what many very successful clubs do.

I don't trust the owners or Woodward 100% when it comes to their ability to make sound decisions on the football side, so I'm not going to dismiss your suspicion just like that, pointing to the wisdom of the people running the club.

But in the absence of anything tangible, I think it's fair to give Giggs (and the owners, for that matter) the benefit of the doubt.
 
Scholes: "I'd be sad to see Giggs go. He knows the place and knows what type of football is expected"

Don't know if that statement reflects worse on Scholesy or Giggs?
 
.Rossi said:
Scholes: "I'd be sad to see Giggs go. He knows the place and knows what type of football is expected"

Don't know if that statement reflects worse on Scholesy or Giggs?
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Probably safe to lump both of them together at this point. One is pushing the agenda for the other and the latter is just trying to do all he can to hold out for the United job.
 
LeftyBlaster said:
Probably safe to lump both of them together at this point. One is pushing the agenda for the other and the latter is just trying to do all he can to hold out for the United job.
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It's not that.

I read the "He know what's type of football is expected" part and think, what the feck has be been doing the last three years then?

If people say, "Oh he hasn't had a say" well you'd expect that to carry on under Mourinho so, it's best he manage his own team and show everyone his type of football and ideals.

If people say, he's had a say, well the football since 2013 doesn't reflect well on him and everyone else involved
 
If I was Giggs I would leave. Its evident that Mou doesn't really want him there. On the other hand if Giggs leave, then Mou should watch his back. The team pundits will be circling around him waiting for every mistake to strike
 
Shamwow said:
The club wouldn't offer him a paying job if they didn't value him. It's pretty much the literal meaning of the word.

Have you heard anyone at all in the media say a bad word about his coaching abilities or doubt them? I've heard nothing but praise from all sorts of different people. If people were saying the same stuff about a promising young coach from another club you'd be lapping it up.
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Maybe. Maybe not. I just dislike the 'untouchable' thing. He's a part of Moyes's team, Moyes and his team are sacked, Giggs gets a promotion. He's a part of Van Gaal's team. Van Gaal and his people are sacked, Giggs is offered another role.

I just don't get why he's so precious. And heck, if he's so bloody good, why not give him the manager's role?
 
I really don't get the big deal if he leaves, legend player, but we don't offer a full time job to all of our legends. It should really be up to Maureen if he wants him on his staff based on his merits as a coach. Keep foisting him onto new managers I don't think benefits anyone in the long term.
 
Amir said:
Maybe. Maybe not. I just dislike the 'untouchable' thing. He's a part of Moyes's team, Moyes and his team are sacked, Giggs gets a promotion. He's a part of Van Gaal's team. Van Gaal and his people are sacked, Giggs is offered another role.

I just don't get why he's so precious. And heck, if he's so bloody good, why not give him the manager's role?
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Moyes' people were let go because they were Moyes' people. You wouldn't exactly want Jimmy Lumsden moping around after Moyes has gone and I doubt he'd want to either. Notice we didn't sack all of Moyes' staff straight away - Phil Neville and Chris Wood the goalkeeping coach stayed on until the summer, presumably because we were satisfied with their work and they wanted to stick around. I'm not sure if there were any more who stayed. I can only assume that it was Van Gaal who made the decision that they were not needed once he was signed as he had his own staff in mind - but he did decide to keep Ryan Giggs around - and he has seemed perfectly happy with that arrangement throughout his tenure. I would therefore assume that we are giving Mourinho the same choice.

As for "if he's so bloody good, why not give him the manager's role?", would your own answer to that not be his inexperience?
 
Chorley1974 said:
I really don't get the big deal if he leaves, legend player, but we don't offer a full time job to all of our legends. It should really be up to Maureen if he wants him on his staff based on his merits as a coach. Keep foisting him onto new managers I don't think benefits anyone in the long term.
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It's not a big deal if he leaves. I mean it'll be a bit of a shame but nothing more than that. Him staying seems to be the big deal for many.
 
.Rossi said:
"If they're good enough, they're old enough"

Replace old with experienced in this case
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So instead of using logic you use a cliché that you've read elsewhere but even then you have to twist the wording for it to make any sense.

Classic .Rossi?
 
Shamwow said:
It's not a big deal if he leaves. I mean it'll be a bit of a shame but nothing more than that. Him staying seems to be the big deal for many.
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Why a shame? If he's not qualified for the roles, and without a qualified track record of managerial/coaching success, not sure why a shame. More deadwood out, which LVG was largely successful at, but clearly not fully.
 
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