How is the 5221 man to man? It’s the opposite. It’s one of the gripes I’ve had but we didn’t see that today because the CBs engaged further up. There were other issues today, mainly being outfought and being too sloppy on the ball.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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How is the 5221 man to man? It’s the opposite. It’s one of the gripes I’ve had but we didn’t see that today because the CBs engaged further up. There were other issues today, mainly being outfought and being too sloppy on the ball.
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He needs 6 or 7 specialist players to play his brand of football and if he persists with man to man marking he’ll fail miserably. The club should have done their sure diligence and watched Bielsa’s Leeds team try and play this way in the EPL, you can’t go man to man marking in the EPL, the opposition move the ball too quickly and then your out of shape when you lose the ball, this is the most worrying part of his team set up right now?
I don't like that at all too. And I certainly wouldn't apply it to somebody who merely criticises the manager. But when there are calls for sacking him, then I think, it will always invite such answers. I am completely convinced that even if we had brought in Pep or Klopp or Ancelotti, managers nobody would dare to question their credentials as managers, we'd still be a struggling side. Because we made mistakes and amassed a group that is lacking individually and collectively. And you won't rectify such things in 3 month. Probably not even in a year.
edit: what we see now is mostly the same issues we've had for long times. The underlying performance numbers can confirm that. This isn't a new state, it is mostly the same state as last year, just without a bit of luck in front of goal
I’m less convinced every game I watch. He’s been dealt the worst hand possible, but he’s also not playing it well. We looked completely clueless out there most of the game.
Yes I definitely agree with that, and unfortunately at the moment I'm not yet convinced the people upstairs have much of a plan to rectify it either (although transfer strategy does seem to have somewhat improved from the previous clusterfeck).
How has Amorim improved us? What is there to build on?
He said he’ll stick to his system. He doesn’t have the players, he knew it. I would not be fast to write him off. He needs his signings
I have, he's called De Gea, he was a great shot stopper but not so good at everything else and certainly didn't command his area
The thing is, I think the 2nd half was night and day compared to the first. Did Everton play that bad in the 2nd half, or did we up our game? I think we upped our game. So what do you credit that to? Did the players decide to ignore Amorim’s instructions and play out the rest of the match their way, or was it something he said during HT? Garnacho coming on certainly helped. Bruno was 100% better than he was in the first half. Was it because Casemiro came off? Ugarte was also more energetic.
Bit of both. Everton have a tendency to drop off late in games, but Amorim also made good adjustments (he's generally been a breath of fresh air in that regard).
Watch the game back Dalot and Dorgu are constantly chasing back to pick u their man which forces the team into a deep back 5, Anorim’s system is easy to play against with a 4231 which Moyes adopted today you push your front 3 on the back 3, Dacoure picked up Casemiro then their two full backs pushed up high up the pitch to push Dalot and Dorgu back to pen us in, very much like they did for 60 minutes, this is why Dorgu was our best attacker his pace was the only outlet and he had lots of space as their full backs pushed vacated the space!
I think a lot of our problems come from lack of movement in midfield when the CBs are on the ball and also a lack of midfielders who can receive the ball under pressure on the half turn and pass it forward.
Bruno is the only one whose default is to pass forward but he's not great on the half turn/under pressure.. The rest seem to just pass back or sideways. And the lack of movement to help the buildup through midfield is poor.
We just end up passing it sideways among the defenders and eventually hoofing it when they're pressed.
It was like that under ten Hag too.
I just hope 3 or 4 good signings can improve things.
Obviously the forwards aren't good enough either.
Bruno is the only one whose default is to pass forward but he's not great on the half turn/under pressure.. The rest seem to just pass back or sideways. And the lack of movement to help the buildup through midfield is poor.
We just end up passing it sideways among the defenders and eventually hoofing it when they're pressed.
It was like that under ten Hag too.
I just hope 3 or 4 good signings can improve things.
Obviously the forwards aren't good enough either.
All we need is hope nothing else . Is Amorim giving us anything to look forward to , so far absolutely nothing . No improvement , no style , no system , no idea what’s next . We fans love him but we can’t marry with manager .
We need a couple of young rapid and physically strong guys in the summer for CM.
don’t we all.
So we just accept that a club with a smaller budget and standing is so so much better in such a vital aspect of running a football club? Probably not right. Our rivals do a lot of things way better than we do. And at this point, it isn't just "bring in this and that player" or "we need the right manager". It simply isn't. Thats why I think, it is so unconstructive to already get so aggrevated about short term results and success. We have challenges on a completely different level. What difference does it make whether we end up 14th or 9th. It seems to make such a difference that even the the fanbase, a group that at least shouldn't be an additional factor to bring unrest to the club is doing its share to create a destructive atmosphere. Criticise all you want. But wanting the manager gone who jumped into the damaged car 5minutes ago as if that would change our trajectory, come on, if that isn't blind actionism what is?!
The squad is probably a bit better than 15th but we don't suffer right now, because we are unmotivated. We aresuffering because Amorim tries to play a somewhat recent style of play that requires above average workrate, focus and intensity. On top of that, he lost quite a few starters on injuries, something he has no fault in.
Other teams have squads that individually are inferior on a talent level. They are getting results because they are organized and really fight for it. Our players too long thought that they are too good to be needed to work hard. And we too long had managers and higher ups who understood the need for organisation. Thats the challenge. No matter who the manager is, this is the challenge.
Have to agree...
What exactly has he damaged? All the issues were there before him. We have no mentionworthy midfield, our strikers are inexperienced and don't contribute, our wingers the same plus they aren't capable of taking on opponents and often don't work back as required. Our fullbacks do nothing in attack. Since ages. Dalot didn't become a worse player because he is now asked to play wingback. He was never the great player some people on here wanted to see there. Same for Shaw, same for Rashford.
Bubbles are bursting now. Amorims decision to change system midseason is definitely a factor that adds to the problems. But it isn't the source of our players constantly gettnig outrun, outfought, concentration lapses and fecking up the few chances the get in front of goal. As much as I understand people being frustrated and wanting change, changing the manager now is just stirring up the pot of shit once again. It will still be shit after the switch.
He keeps making the same mistake with this CB inverting shit on the ball instead of adjusting
Today was man to man at times (partly due to Everton, as you yourself pointed out) but today was not the flat 5221 we’ve seen recently. The back line were more fluid, they pressed higher in areas. If Dorgu is pressing in the LM position, De Light is pressing in the CM position, then how is it a flat back 5? In some instances it may be, but that’s generally one of the positives of this system, you can have the numbers in defence and, if you have the right players, then transition and outnumber them in attack or at least stretch them horizontally across the pitch.
In the last few matches it’s been too flat a back 5, but they’ve been picking up 3 players and we’ve been outnumbered in midfield. So again, how is that man to man? If the opposition go man to man then there’s nothing we can do about that other than exploit it. And I saw signs of us doing that today as our 10s dropped into better positions to receive the ball, losing their markers (but like I’ve said, they were then criminally wasteful) and Dorgu linked well to get in behind his man and cause them issues.
Arguably yes and I'd probably agree but squad quality hasn't declined that much.
you think Hojlund, Antony, the current Casemiro are 'good players' and would start for a top half teamCasemiro can barely even run out there, Antony is already out of the league and Hojlund will be following him soon enough.
the overrating of some of these dire players just in order to criticise the manager is absurdly hilarious.
To be fair mate I haven't even criticised the manager that much beyond suggesting he might need to try something new and have said he should get more time, but don't let that get in the way.
We have the 2nd or 3rd highest wage bill in the league. Now granted we don't get value for money and we've been paying players more than they're worth. But to think we're over paying them that much is quite frankly ludicrous. I know some people can't look past a few weeks months form when rating players but you can't seriously believe that the majority of our squad isn't good enough to start for Fulham or Bournemouth. Rashford went to Villa and he's starting, Antony went to a top 6-8 team in Spain and he's starting, Chelsea wanted Garnacho. Mainoo, Urgarte, Deligt, Mazraoui, Yoro, Martinez, Bruno, Amad etc would all move to good sides if we sold them this summer.
Do you think we sign players that have played for Bayern, Inter, PSG, Ajax, Chelsea, Juventus, Real Madrid etc and they become only good enough for relelgation battlers over night?
And it's still total, unquantifiable nonsense. You should probably stop repeating it. All we know for sure is that Onana is not good enough. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up De Gea. He wasn't good enough, either. So we did the sensible thing. Replaced him. Unfortunately, we replaced him with Onana.
You are talking about living in the present then proceed to list 5 players who have barely featured under Amorim 2 of which are currently at other clubs.
Regardless my point remains, the majority of the players we've signed since 2022 are certainly better than 16th in the league mate.
Yes, I'm talking about living in the present. For example those two players who we loaned out, paying a big % of their wages and no loan fee, but no Prem clubs showed any interest at all.
Can you think of a Prem club who would take Casemiro for free on even half the wages we're paying him? What Prem clubs would want to downgrade their keeper to Onana? Hojlund and Zirkzee wouldnt even start for Ipswich so forget teams up the table. Mount won't kick a ball in anger again.
Of the 8 players I listed I'm pretty certain the only one who will play for another Premier League team in their career is Eriksen, because I can see someone offering him a 1 or 2 year contract this summer.
You're 100% right. Almost all of our problems are down to recruitment. EtH and Ole did the most the damage in this regard with the senior management giving them too much discretion.
No manager should be getting all his players though. They should be managing and making the best out of the ones the club gives them.
The inherited squad was garbage and has been for a decade. Even the previous manager who brought them in got sacked for this very reason.
I mean, Everton beat Liverpool 2-2 the other day before losing 2-2 to us today, so yes.
But seriously, what happened with all the big words from Bruno and Ruben after the Liverpool game about how angry they were that the team only raises its game for some matches?
That lasted for a few weeks until we beat Arsenal and then normal service resumed.
And? One went to Real Betis.
Not big wages no but that's a different matter, I reckon quite a few would take Onana, Hojlund would have no problem finding a club he's better then he's currently showing. I still have no idea what position Zirkzee is best at so I have no idea but he looked a decent enough player when he finished 5th in Italy Bologna.
I've genuinely no idea how some of you think we managed to finish 3rd and especially 8th (despite ETH bonkers ball and injuries) in the last 2 years if our squad is only good enough to finish 15th-16th.
He hasn't inherited too many players that have been here for a decade to be fair. But the point remains no manager should get to build a new team with ''all their own players''. That's largely the reason we've wasted so much money post SAF.
He got sacked because he persevered with a style of football that clearly wasn't working. He had no problem finishing 3rd the season before when he used a more sensible style of football.
when he was managing Swansea, Laudrup said he doesn't expect his players to play like Messi and Ronaldo, but that every player can learn the basics and simple stuff.
I refuse to accept thst the players at this club can't improve at all, that you can only replace them.
I refuse to accept thst the players at this club can't improve at all, that you can only replace them.
How do you....play the worst hand possible well enough for your standards?
Beating Arsenal a man down. Liverpool. City. Thru in Europa. Several corrections after horrible first halfs.
All while a player like Rashford decided to throw his hands up and leave mid season.
He's doing better than I would expect of most managers with THIS hand.
I posted two questions which you didn't answer. I never said he damaged anything, but his own reputation has really suffered recently. I want him to succeed but I just can't see it. In my opinion there is no progress.
problem is most of his results come from cup games. We look like a different team in the league.
United still didn’t play well until we scored - which was still against the run of play.
It’s normal that when a team goes from 2:0 to 2:1 they retreat - that’s the only reason we looked better because Everton lost confidence in themselves.
Out of 90+ mins, we played ok for 20. For 70 mins we were appalling.
We got lucky, Bruno has not scored from circa 48 free kick attempts on goal before today.
Just look at our midfield options:
1. Ugarte - Our only semi consistent midfielder, new to the league and still adjusting.
2. Mainoo - Injured, having 2nd season syndrome.
3. Collyer - Injured, new to the first team, inexperienced but looked not too awful.
4. Eriksen - Can play maybe 30mins of PL football before looking knackered.
5. Casemiro - Doesn't look arsed, doesn't run anyway.
6. Bruno - Could play here, can dictate play well as seen today, but also plays hospital passes and easily dispossessed which causes us problems.
7. Sékou Koné - No idea how he'd do. Might be worth trying at some stage even if just for 15mins.
8. Mount - Injured and played so little football I honestly forgot to add him in this list.
We've spent €920m in the last 5 years and this is what we've got.
1. Ugarte - Our only semi consistent midfielder, new to the league and still adjusting.
2. Mainoo - Injured, having 2nd season syndrome.
3. Collyer - Injured, new to the first team, inexperienced but looked not too awful.
4. Eriksen - Can play maybe 30mins of PL football before looking knackered.
5. Casemiro - Doesn't look arsed, doesn't run anyway.
6. Bruno - Could play here, can dictate play well as seen today, but also plays hospital passes and easily dispossessed which causes us problems.
7. Sékou Koné - No idea how he'd do. Might be worth trying at some stage even if just for 15mins.
8. Mount - Injured and played so little football I honestly forgot to add him in this list.
We've spent €920m in the last 5 years and this is what we've got.
Yeah I honestly didn't see much of an improvement until the Bruno goal either. After that it felt like the players believed they could get something and we found more energy, which is pretty much exactly the same as the situations against Southampton and Leicester recently.
The worrying thing is I don't think we're getting better. I really want to believe we are and that we can finish the season strongly with a cup win but we need to see so much more from the players and the manager.
Just pass the ball forward Amorim and stop all this passing at the back and passing backwards.
Let’s play forward aggressively and let’s attack attack attack.
Let’s play forward aggressively and let’s attack attack attack.
I have not and will not abscond the idea that this squad is complete toss. There are a handful of very good players, two of whom are out injured. We get bailed out by individual moments of brilliance. But to be a team that plays a system and plays at a high level the vast majority of the time regardless of the opponent we need probably 7 or 8 new starting 11.
Because you're refusing to think about how the squad has changed since then. The 24/25 squad is a fecking trainwreck, and the 22/23 squad was decent. If you don't see all the reasons why, especially after they've been pointed out here dozens of times, there's no helping you.
If you look at Leicester in the Cup and now today. We have had sections of games where we've been able to pin the opposition back and dominate them in their own half. So clearly at points in some games we're able to get the tactics and formation working. Dorgu is definetly a positive today, im holding those positives tight for now as there are small glimmers of a heartbeat. We need more athletic players like Yoro and Dorgu in the team and less slow tanks like Casemiro and Maguire.