Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[Iker Quesadillas]

I didn’t say he should be given 3 years, just a little bit longer than 3 months. And preferably give him some help.

I think most people are just saying that if the results and position continue until the end of the season, he will be sacked. Not necessarily that they want him sacked, just that he will be.

Mitigating factors exist and should be accounted for, but at the same time, a club can't just ignore a dramatically low league placement.

 

[UnitedSofa]

feck me. This team can really be toxic.

 

[SER19]

feck me. This team can really be toxic.

smells like the media covering up for Rashford now hes obviously not around to leak. 'ruben amorim lost his shit' 'i have to lie low for a bit' ffs what an utterly fake quote

 

[RedSky]

I agree with that, we’re playing shit and it’s concerning. We’re in relegation form. But at the same time, I struggle to blame the manager for it. He’s been here 5 minutes, and because we haven’t seen an immediate improvement after about 5 training sessions, you have people saying he should be moved on. It’s mad.

I mean the issue is that we should never have appointed the guy in the first place. I feel so much genuine sympathy for Amorim. If we were wanting to appoint him, should have waited for the Summer or made the clear decision to get rid of Ten Hag last Summer when it was fecking obvious that it was the right call. Instead we've given the guy a horrific start, put an immense amount of pressure on him and given him very little backing. Now we find out the club is utterly broke and the chances of him having a £200m warchest similar to the last few Managers is pretty much zero.

Then to top it all, we have senior pro's leeching off the club and refusing to leave. We're finished as a serious club.

 

[Pexbo]

smells like the media covering up for Rashford now hes obviously not around to leak. 'i have to lie low for a bit' ffs

bingo

 

[tomaldinho1]

I expect some level of improvement - but then we have not one but two freak ligament injuries ruining the futures of our best creative defender and best creative attacker in the same week.

How do you legislate for that? Amidst all the rest of the shit Amorim has inherited from Ineos, Glazer, Ten Hag and Ole failings..

You just give a bit more leeway on expectations I guess. My expectations are pretty darn low, but I agree there has to be some level of improvement. I would even take losing most games, enough to survive, if we started to play well, to see more chances created and understand the plan a bit more. That to me would be far more exciting than if we shithouse a few wins but keep playing the same way.

I just don't understand the posters who seem like they are duty bound to just ignore what we are seeing before our eyes this season though. I was very harsh on Ole in the period after he got his perm deal, it was a huge mistake by the club not to wait and assess options in the summer (they could still have then picked Ole if they wanted) but we beat PSG and then got 8 points out of the last 27 in the league (a whopping 0.88 points a game) and Amorim is dangerously close to this level right now.

 

[Sarni]

I hate this argument. The season is the season, it's 38 games, you deserve to finish where you finish. Injuries, ref calls, other team's injuries etc. are different every year but where you finish is exactly where you deserve to be.

I agree with the sentiment though of how bad we are, this is the first time I am not going into games with some hope - usually I'd always think a good performance was coming, even in the dark days of former managers, and would be looking at Everton and, in particular, Ipswich as big chances to get back to back wins but it seems near inevitable we will struggle in both games. I would honestly be more surprised right now if we won both, than if we lost both which says a lot. I think we'll beat Ipswich for what it is worth, but I can see Everton turning us over.

I actually think the length of season makes it even more prone to luck/chance. Over the course of 38 games things can happen very randomly to impact your landing, especially when the gap is small.

 

[SER19]

bingo

The team leaker has left under cover of darkness and is lying low in Birmingham.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I actually think the length of season makes it even more prone to luck/chance. Over the course of 38 games things can happen very randomly to impact your landing, especially when the gap is small.

That is the opposite of how it works?

 

[2 man midfield]

I mean the issue is that we should never have appointed the guy in the first place. I feel so much genuine sympathy for Amorim. If we were wanting to appoint him, should have waited for the Summer or made the clear decision to get rid of Ten Hag last Summer when it was fecking obvious that it was the right call. Instead we've given the guy a horrific start, put an immense amount of pressure on him and given him very little backing. Now we find out the club is utterly broke and the chances of him having a £200m warchest similar to the last few Managers is pretty much zero.

Then to top it all, we have senior pro's leeching off the club and refusing to leave. We're finished as a serious club.

Can’t disagree with any of that. The guy is wedded to a system we can’t play, didn’t want the job mid-season and we said it’s either now or never. We also now apparently have to buy an entire new squad for this system, and if it doesn’t work out with him then we won’t have the players for the next guy either. It’s a recipe for disaster.

I think in hindsight Dan Ashworth likely raised these concerns, like a good DOF should do, and his advice was basically ignored so Ratcliffe could appoint him anyway.

 

[romufc]

We're playing a different system. So obviously Amorim is going to struggle more. I'm sure if he abandoned his principles and attempted to put a blanket over our players and put them in a formation they'd be more comfortable in his results would improve. But that's not what we're doing.

Nobody is saying he can't be critised, that's just something you're plucking out of thin air. We all understand that this is crap, that results are extremely poor. But sacking him simply isn't the answer, it'll just be yet another terrible decision in an extremely long list of bad decisions. We've appointed him, that came with the very clear understanding that by doing so we would be changing system. We accepted that and still took him on in the middle of the season. The club knew it would be a poor short term decision but made it with long term objectivity.

No matter who was appointed this season it would end up with this being a terrible year. Ten Hags transfers and squad planning doomed this club. Too many of us predicted that it would end in tears because our strikers are so poor. We basically gambled this year in the hope Rashford woke up. He didn't. Season over.

I am not saying for him to move away from his principles, I quite like that he is sticking to them and not bending to the squad he has.

Like you think nobody saying he can be criticised, no one is also saying he should be sacked right now either.

Yes, I think we were all geared up for a poor season after Ten Hag was sacked but on the premise that the new manager gets his style of play going.

3 months in, I cannot say there has been any improvements in any department tbf, the squad is still as unmotivated as before, the coaching seems just as bad if not worse.. the same players under a terrible performing manager won the cup last season.

We rely on individuals whilst most top managers rely on their system to create.

 

[RedSky]

Might not be elite level but the bulk of their players are a lot better than the bulk of ours now.

Sels, Milenkovic, Murillo, Wood, Anderson, Gibbs-White, Elanga, Kluivert, Kepa, Semenyo, Kerkez, Cook, Outtarra etc etc... they all walk into our starting eleven right now.

Wood has scored the same amount as Diallo, Rashford, Garnacho, Zirkzee and Hojlund combined.
Kluivert has scored 4 more goals than Rashford, Hojlund and Zirkzee combined.

Why do people still rate our squad?

Our defense is decent when they can be bothered to not make individual errors. But the rest is abysmal. Our attack in particular is painfully poor and has been for at least 30 months.

 

[Doracle]

To people saying he should get the summer no matter what, is that on the basis of any improvement now?

No improvement would mean a record of something like 7/6/14 in the league and, presumably, exits in both cups.

I think he has to show some improvement in the remaining matches. Either he needs a step up in league results or to win/go very close to winning the Europa. Otherwise, I really struggle to see how Ineos could then justify backing him in the summer.

 

[romufc]

Wood has scored the same amount as Diallo, Rashford, Garnacho, Zirkzee and Hojlund combined.
Kluivert has scored 4 more goals than Rashford, Hojlund and Zirkzee combined.

Why do people still rate our squad?

Our defense is decent when they can be bothered to not make individual errors. But the rest is abysmal. Our attack in particular is painfully poor and has been for at least 30 months.

Okay let me ask you.. do you think if the roles were reversed, we had that squad and Amorim, we would be anywhere near where Bournemouth are in the league? The answer is no.

I dont rate our squad but to to cherry pick certain players.

Why dont you add Bruno and Garnacho to the list?

So you don't think Yoro, Mainoo, Garnacho, Bruno, De Ligt, Mazroui, Ugarte and Amad would be able to get into bottom half teams?

Its all about form and coaching, you can have the worst names but if well coached they can do something.

 

[JPRouve]

I mean the issue is that we should never have appointed the guy in the first place. I feel so much genuine sympathy for Amorim. If we were wanting to appoint him, should have waited for the Summer or made the clear decision to get rid of Ten Hag last Summer when it was fecking obvious that it was the right call. Instead we've given the guy a horrific start, put an immense amount of pressure on him and given him very little backing. Now we find out the club is utterly broke and the chances of him having a £200m warchest similar to the last few Managers is pretty much zero.

Then to top it all, we have senior pro's leeching off the club and refusing to leave. We're finished as a serious club.

That's why I wanted ETH out in June. There is no rational where you keep a manager that has question marks when you have the opportunity to do it cheaply and at a time where his successor will have the benefit of a preseason. But to make matter worse these idiots decided to purchase a bunch of average players for a good chunk of money, then they turn around sack the manager in October and have no money to effectively adapt to their new appointee because they spent it on the manager they didn't trust in the first place. Now here is the problem, if Amorim doesn't improve things between now and the end of the season and INEOS don't fully trust him, they need to sack him in the summer and not in November or December 2025 if they start the season with him, they better keep him until next summer unless someone exceptional is available.

*Everything over 40m is a high fee no matter what some may think.

 

[red_de_pologne]

It's actually wild how people still choose to defend the players, the same set of players who sacked one manager this season already, playing different tactical set up.

 

[MaxZorin]

I think in hindsight Dan Ashworth likely raised these concerns, like a good DOF should do, and his advice was basically ignored so Ratcliffe could appoint him anyway.

The sudden Ashworth love-in is getting a bit
much. It reminds me of sacked managers and former players after they've left.

I could have told you we didn't have the players for Amorim's system, let alone the recipient of a million quid contract.

However, unlike Dan, I could tell you relying on the same formation because the current crop of players are used to would not work either. They've had how long to make it work, already?

Wanted his own data analysis department and all
sorts.

Ashworth should never have been hired in the first place.

There is Ineos' mistake.

 

[Sarni]

That is the opposite of how it works?

Don't think so. Only if we think that 'luck evens itself out', which it doesn't.

E.g. 2009-10, we finished 1 point behind Chelsea who scored a goal that was miles offside at OT. Had that goal been disallowed, we would have won the league. It's one random event that basically dictated who won the league that year, and there are 38 times during season where something like this could potentially impact your season and where you finish.

 

[MaxZorin]

That's why I wanted ETH out in June. There is no rational where you keep a manager that has question marks when you have the opportunity to do it cheaply and at a time where his successor will have the benefit of a preseason.

It all depends on the successor, though.

You still have to hire somebody else.

Sacking the coach without a replacement leaves you wide open.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Don't think so. Only if we think that 'luck evens itself out', which it doesn't.

E.g. 2009-10, we finished 1 point behind Chelsea who scored a goal that was miles offside at OT. Had that goal been disallowed, we would have won the league. It's one random event that basically dictated who won the league that year, and there are 38 times during season where something like this could potentially impact your season and where you finish.

Wait until someone explains to you how probability applies to a coin toss. It's going to blow your mind.

 

[Insanity]

After INEOS' adventures with ETH and Ashworth I don't think Amo is going anywhere anytime soon. So let's pray to our Gods that he is the one. We need some luck go our way and have him come through for us.

 

[Superden]

Don't think so. Only if we think that 'luck evens itself out', which it doesn't.

E.g. 2009-10, we finished 1 point behind Chelsea who scored a goal that was miles offside at OT. Had that goal been disallowed, we would have won the league. It's one random event that basically dictated who won the league that year, and there are 38 times during season where something like this could potentially impact your season and where you finish.

the drogba goal? worst moment in last god knows how many years.

 

[RedSky]

Okay let me ask you.. do you think if the roles were reversed, we had that squad and Amorim, we would be anywhere near where Bournemouth are in the league? The answer is no.

I dont rate our squad but to to cherry pick certain players.

Why dont you add Bruno and Garnacho to the list?

So you don't think Yoro, Mainoo, Garnacho, Bruno, De Ligt, Mazroui, Ugarte and Amad would be able to get into bottom half teams?

Its all about form and coaching, you can have the worst names but if well coached they can do something.

Amad's our only decent forward. Garnacho has potential but very inconsistent (being generous) end product. Hojlund and Zirkzee have zero attacking end product right now. Harsh for me to be too critical of Zirkzee as it's his first season here and we're a shit show. He's certainly improving as he was fecking terrible early on. But neither have goal threat.

Ugarte is very much like Zirkzee, hit and miss. Mainoo very similar to Garnacho, has potential but very inconsistent (played too much as well). We have no other midfielders other than Bruno. Eriksen and Casemiro are non entities and Mount I think is some mythical creature at this point. We have no depth at all.

Defence as I pointed out is our only genuine area of strength and that comes with some problems. Shaw is the very definition of injury prone and Martinez is becoming that way. I rate De Ligt, Maz and Yoro, Maguire can do a job. I've never once rated Dalot, think he's a very average player personally. While Onana is inconsistent. It's still the best area of our squad, but that's not saying much and without a functioning midfield and attack they're doomed to fail anyway. Our attacking options in particular are relegation standard.

 

[2 man midfield]

The sudden Ashworth love-in is getting a bit
much. It reminds me of sacked managers and former players after they've left.

I could have told you we didn't have the players for Amorim's system, let alone the recipient of a million quid contract.

However, unlike Dan, I could tell you relying on the same formation because the current crop of players are used to would not work either. They've had how long to make it work, already?

Wanted his own data analysis department and all
sorts.

Ashworth should never have been hired in the first place.

There is Ineos' mistake.

I thought it was the opposite: that Ashworth wanted to outsource the data stuff, and Ratcliffe basically said what am I paying you for then?

 

[romufc]

Amad's our only decent forward. Garnacho has potential but very inconsistent (being generous) end product. Hojlund and Zirkzee have zero attacking end product right now. Harsh for me to be too critical of Zirkzee as it's his first season here and we're a shit show. He's certainly improving as he was fecking terrible early on. But neither have goal threat.

Ugarte is very much like Zirkzee, hit and miss. Mainoo very similar to Garnacho, has potential but very inconsistent (played too much as well). We have no other midfielders other than Bruno. Eriksen and Casemiro are non entities and Mount I think is some mythical creature at this point. We have no depth at all.

Defence as I pointed out is our only genuine area of strength and that comes with some problems. Shaw is the very definition of injury prone and Martinez is becoming that way. I rate De Ligt, Maz and Yoro, Maguire can do a job. I've never once rated Dalot, think he's a very average player personally. While Onana is inconsistent. It's still the best area of our squad, but that's not saying much and without a functioning midfield and attack they're doomed to fail anyway. Our attacking options in particular are relegation standard.

I agree the squad is rubbish but I just think the manager should be getting alot more out these players than he is.

Lets see what excuses fans come out with next season then... considering we are looking to make changes to the squad in the summer.

I reckon the excuses will be "INEOS signed x player, Amorim wanted Y"

 

[croadyman]

Forcing him to come mid season. If they’re expecting results straight away and didn’t accept that the players might not fit his system, and that he’d be judged before being backed, then they fecked him over.

They have massively fecked him over

 

[croadyman]

The over reaction to the FA Cup win was ridiculous. People collectively lost their minds despite over a year of evidence we were going backwards.

Yeah in particular fan channels like Stretford Paddock went way over the top about not sacking him

 

[tomaldinho1]

Don't think so. Only if we think that 'luck evens itself out', which it doesn't.

E.g. 2009-10, we finished 1 point behind Chelsea who scored a goal that was miles offside at OT. Had that goal been disallowed, we would have won the league. It's one random event that basically dictated who won the league that year, and there are 38 times during season where something like this could potentially impact your season and where you finish.

I can't tell if you are joking.

 

[Wolfbot]

the mentality of this team once we go a goal down is fecking horrific.

I don't think I agree with that. I think more often we don't start particularly well and only really inject some urgency and create chances when we need to get back into a game. The response yo going behind is usually decent, the issue is that you'll lose more than you'll win doing that.

The speed and attitude with which we start a game is often terrible... or even if we've started ok for 10 minutes, we miss a couple of good chances then inevitably concede a cheap goal.

We need to be getting other teams on the back foot and getting earlier goals more often. Momentum is king, and we never really have any until it's too late.

 

[Sarni]

Wait until someone explains to you how probability applies to a coin toss. It's going to blow your mind.

Well, if you flip a coin 38 times, you are not that likely to get an even split of 19-19 either.

 

[Sarni]

I can't tell if you are joking.

I'm not. I don't think a 38-game season is nearly that perfect that every single team is always in the exact spot they deserve, and that luck / chance plays no part in that.

Of course luck isn't going to move a team from 15th to 1st, but it can easily move you up a few places, especially around mid-table where gaps are fairly small. This includes injuries, schedule, referee decisions, playing different teams when they in/out of form, even the way a single game unfolds etc. There'll always be an element of chance in the points total you earn. I should have been more clear in saying that I think that element of luck may not usually be hugely significant as my previous posts may have indicated otherwise, I just don't like the notion of league system always returning the 100% correct outcome which is not impacted by any randomness at all.

It's probably not a debate for this thread anyway. We were at best the 8th best team in the league last year, and there were signs that some teams that finish below us had the potential to get significantly better soon (Bournemouth, Brighton, Palace mostly). We ground out a lot of wins in very tight games, disproportionately so, and underlying metrics had us at much less than 60 points that we got in the end. We were definitely not as bad as we've been recently though, nowhere near. We may have got outplayed by some really average teams last year but we weren't hopeless week in week out like we are now, almost every single minute of every game.

 

[romufc]

If we had Bournemouth or Forest's squad I have no idea where Amorim would finish, and neither do you. Conversely, if Nuno (the guy who flopped at Spurs and everywhere else) or Iraola came to United now, with our current squad of about 8-9 useable Prem-standard players, it's 100% certain they wouldn't win m/any games either.

The only players we have who would reliably get to play football at Forest and Bournemouth are Bruno and Amad, one of whom is out for the season. Mainoo, Mazraoui, De Ligt and Ugarte potentially would - but not on this season's form/fitness.

What people need to realise is form v quality. Whilst Forrest players might be on form this season, does not mean their quality is higher.

For example, everyone I see keeps saying Elanga gets in this team, let me ask you? What position does Elanga get in this team?

I would say I would take probably 2 of their players at best... Morgan Gibbs white for sure and another, maybe their RWB.

United have been so bad, I actually tend to watch alot more other PL games this season and I can tell you Forrest are not great, Elanga is not the player people think he is either.

I have watched Bournemouth this season, what you can see there is a very well coached team with good players, nothing special.

The problem is, I dont think any manager does well at United, Amorim can have the same players but if the club was called Doncaster Rovers, he would be getting alot more out of them, I am sure.

 

[croadyman]

If we lose against Everton, the media will start running with the "job in danger" articles with Ipswich being "make or break.", whether it's true or not.

Yeah it will reach absolute fever pitch despite the fact he's not had a summer window yet. I'm coming round to the reality we just haven't got the funds to buy enough players who suit this system.

 

[romufc]

RF... because Amad is injured and no one else can play there

Yes they are in form but a lot of the players I listed have more quality than the equivalents in our squad. Anderson is better than anything we have. So is Milenkovic. So is Wood. So is Kerkez. So are their keepers. etc etc

Right.. how often do you watch full 90 mins of Forrest?

I have compare Garnacho and Elanga... already Garnacho has been criticised for his actions in games, when you look at dribbling, passing, shooting, defensive stats, Garnacho has been better in majority of the metrics.

Elanga has a great 63% passing success.... you telling me he would be better than Garnacho in our team?

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...4-2025&player_id2=2fba6108&p2yrfrom=2024-2025

 

[tomaldinho1]

I'm not. I don't think a 38-game season is nearly that perfect that every single team is always in the exact spot they deserve, and that luck / chance plays no part in that.

Of course luck isn't going to move a team from 15th to 1st, but it can easily move you up a few places, especially around mid-table where gaps are fairly small.

Sorry this has thrown me. Do you get how probability works?

 

[Sarni]

Sorry this has thrown me. Do you get how probability works?

Yep, one of my favorite topics in mathematics.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sorry this has thrown me. Do you get how probability works?

Yep, one of my favorite topics in mathematics.

There’s been threads dedicated to this in the past. Does luck really even itself out over a season? Conclusion is always that nobody has a fecking clue exactly what sample size would properly correct for luck but 38 games might well be too small.

That’s kind of beside the point of what got you into this. Which is United getting more points than their performances deserved last season. And if you apply any credence at all to the use of data like xG in football than it’s fairly obvious that we did. And this season has been a bit of a reversion to the norm.

 

[Sarni]

There’s been threads dedicated to this in the past. Does luck really even itself out over a season? Conclusion is always that nobody has a fecking clue exactly what sample size would properly correct for luck but 38 games might well be too small.

That’s kind of beside the point of what got you into this. Which is United getting more points than their performances deserved last season. And if you apply any credence at all to the use of data like xG in football than it’s fairly obvious that we did. And this season has been a bit of a reversion to the norm.

It's well too small and 20 different participants, who are then compared with each other, being thrown into the mix makes it even more tricky, and it's not all pure chance either.

I do agree that we ground out results well beyond what you'd normally expect last year. Probably shouldn't have used the word 'luck' or anything of that nature as it did indeed sound dumb to suggest a long season makes it more prone to chance. Actually, if you extended season to 3-4 years and averaged it out (they do something like that in Argentina I think), you'd probably be able to get a more accurate reflection of real strength/performance, but then again obviously it's not the exact same team every year either.

 

[matsdf]

I'm not. I don't think a 38-game season is nearly that perfect that every single team is always in the exact spot they deserve, and that luck / chance plays no part in that.

I don't think anyone is arguing that 38 games is perfect, but it sure as hell is better than a knockout cup (in terms of probabilities and variance).

 

[RuudTom83]

United are 15th on the table after 25 games. That's about 14 league positions away from a league challenge.

Yeah, took over a team in 12th, dropped 3 places to 15th, all while trying to change the formation/system.

Improved the EL form and knocked Arsenal out of the FA Cup.

Perfectly understandable really imo.