Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

I don't think anyone is arguing that 38 games is perfect, but it sure as hell is better than a knockout cup (in terms of probabilities and variance).
It is infinitely better in that it will always get you in the proximity of how good you are, i.e. a bottom 5 side will not suddenly finish top 5 whereas it just about might in a cup competition (not very frequent but it does happen).

Once you are in that zone, there'll be some element of chance in where each team is.

I kind of think league and cup put different skills and strengths to test. That's why you have teams who perpetually underperform in the league but excel in cup competitions, and the opposite. That's why I also can see us still be competitive in FA Cup / Europa League this year, despite being hopeless in the league, because I've seen this team be really good when at 100%.
 
He’s gonna have to give the kids a try as a spark, because we got no one else to turn to! Play the kids! Play the kids!
 
Yep, one of my favorite topics in mathematics.
But yet you give the Chelsea goal as an example? That shows a complete lack of understanding - because that is a single event of good 'luck' for them over the course of uncountable events throughout a season.

Obviously it would be better if teams played each other 4 times, not twice, or even 8 times, but the point being this is as close as realistically possible to being fair and it would need something extremely unbalanced to really affect the final standings. As an example here, I would say VAR's unashamed plan to get O'Neill sacked would come into this category after he called them out.
There’s been threads dedicated to this in the past. Does luck really even itself out over a season? Conclusion is always that nobody has a fecking clue exactly what sample size would properly correct for luck but 38 games might well be too small.

That’s kind of beside the point of what got you into this. Which is United getting more points than their performances deserved last season. And if you apply any credence at all to the use of data like xG in football than it’s fairly obvious that we did. And this season has been a bit of a reversion to the norm.
I like xG/xGA and it is a good overlay to the season - but then that was the gamble ETH took and whilst it was hell to watch, the risk/reward of that mental direct football clearly outperformed the model by quite some way. You tend to see this more direct teams (like Chris Wood has scored something ridiculous like 7 more goals than he should have supposedly, Everton had an insane discrepancy last season as well). Obviously the PL is not a lab trial in perfect conditions, but all teams generally have the same broad issues and problems to contend with, they play each other twice, the best team will win and the rest will finish relative to their collective level.
 
A few rumours going about that he wants out and that he is not happy with Jim and his cronies.

I wouldn’t blame him at all if he does want out.
 
I'd want to see some progress from now to the end of the season but the board could look for a mini reset in the summer for Amorim and get some players in that we need anyway like a striker and two midfielders. Two midfielders that can control games and be more clinical for goals should really help.

He has some tough decisions on who plays in the front 3. Do we stick with progressing Garnacho, keep Bruno in that role that Amorim used him early on. To accommodate Garnacho at left 10 he's played Bruno in a two in midfield in recent weeks.

I'd rather we have a 3 man midfield, once you can control there you can have huge impact on your front 3. We tend to go in games with one or one and half under Amorim/ETH.
 
Never seen the word "system" being used so much since he arrived. Probably been mentioned multiple times in all 672 pages of this thread.

People are convinced he has some sort of master plan and things will improve, but there's no real evidence of that so far.
 
Dunno why you're focusing on Elanga who is the worst of the players I listed and was there pretty much based on his 8 assists and us not having anyone who can play RF.

Garnacho is terrible on the right, yes Elanga would be better than him there. All of our forwards have horrific pass success, cross success and general ball retention so he'd fit right in.

Right, so you dont want to improve our squad... you just want ones that are slightly worse?

Amad and Garnacho both have better pass and ball retention than Elanga but you seem to think he gets in our first 11 over them.
 
It all depends on the successor, though.

You still have to hire somebody else.

Sacking the coach without a replacement leaves you wide open.

That's an additional argument for sacking someone in June, there is almost no way to not find a replacement. The pool of good candidate is always smaller in-season.
 
In hindsight, he should have just told the club to wait till summer or take a hike back then. It’s not like we had a long list of candidates ready to step in at that point. If the club was truly committed to him, they would have waited anyway, especially since they likely already knew the season was turning into a mess.
 
Yeah it will reach absolute fever pitch despite the fact he's not had a summer window yet. I'm coming round to the reality we just haven't got the funds to buy enough players who suit this system.

I’m almost at the same conclusion but I’m thinking more along the lines of we don’t have the money to make his stream system work, but we also will look absolutely dog shit in any system right now.

At least those that want him sacked will get their way, but they’ll just need a bit more time to realise these players can’t do much in any system. A point that many seem to be avoiding in their criticism of Amorim’s system.
 
I’m practically at the point of mentally giving up any hope of us sorting ourselves out anytime soon, so the thought of him walking out and effectively setting fire to this shit show is almost exciting :lol:
I get that. But just be warned, that's the kind of action that turns you into Schalke. You don't want to be like Schalke.
 
That Sporting fan on reddit absolutely nailed it a few months back :lol:

GkFuJX6XQAAosQZ


https://www.reddit.com/r/ManchesterUnited/comments/1hcj4fb/from_a_sporting_cp_fan_regarding_r%C3%BAben_amorim/
That was prophetic. Seeing it all play out before our red eyes.
 
I mean the issue is that we should never have appointed the guy in the first place. I feel so much genuine sympathy for Amorim. If we were wanting to appoint him, should have waited for the Summer or made the clear decision to get rid of Ten Hag last Summer when it was fecking obvious that it was the right call. Instead we've given the guy a horrific start, put an immense amount of pressure on him and given him very little backing. Now we find out the club is utterly broke and the chances of him having a £200m warchest similar to the last few Managers is pretty much zero.

Then to top it all, we have senior pro's leeching off the club and refusing to leave. We're finished as a serious club.
Totally agree with this. Summer was the best time to appoint him. He has not been given a fair chance especially as he only knows one system. He has been saved from relegation because the teams below are so bad.
 
I get that. But just be warned, that's the kind of action that turns you into Schalke. You don't want to be like Schalke.

I feel is the next logical step in this tale. I’d rather that than him get sacked, as at least it’d probably direct the ire and questions towards the club for once rather than the managers. The players get away unscathed yet again though, but that’s inevitable.
 
Sancho drama was in the 2nd ETH season. He actually contributed in his first.
Everyone wanted him because he looked great in Germany.
Mount as midfield solution is laughable take, he was bought to be attacker.
Greenwood situation is regrettable.

With Ronaldo he dealt in the worst way possible. Insulted one of the best players to wear the shirt. Failed to use properly one of the greatest finishers in world football.

There are no goals in this team, because the players who are expected to score them are just bad. Coach can only do so much.

There is a pattern - in every game we play there is at least one baffling miss and at least one huge goalkeeper howler.

Licha had dreadful and amazing periods. The fact that he always gets injured puts him into average list. But let's agree he and De Liht are some sort of upgrade on Linde amd Maguire. But not by a large margin by any means.
Yoro is potential for the future.....
Mazraoui is another fullback who looks miles better at centre back. Don't really see him as upgrade on AWB.

We won the trophies with huge doses of luck. It's not like we cruised through. That's why I don't see them as any evidence that the squad is good enough. We were 1 inch away from losing 3-0/3-4 to fecking Coventry.

I agree - the squad level is 10ish place. We are slightly underperforming right now.
And that's my point. ETH transfers gradually made a squad that was struggling for top 6 a squad that is struggling for top 10.
He used up a thousand leprechauns worth of luck to get a few results in the process.
yep
it's been a crazy last 3 years\
only issue i take is with Ronaldo, he was being a prick as well
 
System irrelevant when you have the quality of players we currently have, sure they can turn up on the odd occasion, but been brutal over last few years, as long as we stay up, I really dont care about this season, another one wrote off like many others, if next August we start in similar form, then I'd worry
 
People wanted this, and got exactly what they've been moaning about, a manager who demands more than ETH, and wants totally different approach, including details like formation.

Make an experiment, and let manager deal with the crisis for once.
 
I feel is the next logical step in this tale. I’d rather that than him get sacked, as at least it’d probably direct the ire and questions towards the club for once rather than the managers. The players get away unscathed yet again though, but that’s inevitable.
I didn't say it won't happen :lol:
 
If Amorim struggles next year their won't be many saying he should stay though. Aren't you arguing against a proposition you yourself made up there? I think the lack of patience in here shows we're not in the 3-4 years mindframe anymore

If he was an interim there's no chance he'd even get next season. As a permanent manager he needs next season before being judged as it's a different ask. Both can be true even if it sits oddly.

No I dont think I've made up the idea that some United fans have thought and do think that we should stick with one manager regardless of results for a few years in the hope they eventually come good. Just like Fergie did.

I know you're not new here mate so you must have missed a lot of posters on here saying similar last season with Ten Hag as a reason to keep him. And it was said with previous managers also.
 
I feel is the next logical step in this tale. I’d rather that than him get sacked, as at least it’d probably direct the ire and questions towards the club for once rather than the managers. The players get away unscathed yet again though, but that’s inevitable.
Which specific players are getting away unscathed?
 
I heard this a lot with Ten Hag last year, we need to persevere with Ten Hag's football, it'll come good eventually, short term pain for long term gain etc.

I often posed the same question in response. What if we wait 3-4 years and we're still shit?

Does it really take that long to determine whether or not a manager is going to work out?
I understand the question and I guess that's the risk.

I think the goal with my statement is the club needs an identity of how we play football. From the very young youth players even though only 1 or 2 might make it out of hundreds whom break into the first team need an exact understanding.

Recruitment has been a big thing, people who make those signings decisions need to understand exactly the type of player that is needed and able to understand how we play. Antony is one of our worst signings ever but he's not a bad player, he did great for Ajax and doing great for his new club now. But in this team playing in a system with other players who don't understand it.

I think now is the time to get through the storm and put the needs of the clubs identity first, not trying to come up with a make shift style of play to suit 6 out of the 11 players.

I'm no expert but that's just my own way of thinking because the changing of managers and spending millions on players who will have a different manager every few years with a new style of play, how do we expect that to work? It's no longer feasible.


INEOS are getting stick and maybe rightly so. They have made a lot of harsh decisions. Letting go of common people and paying fortunes for players who aren't great, it is frustrating. They chased Ashworth for months only for him to leave a few months later.


Hopefully everything going on now is the worst of that storm and in time the decisions make sense. It's like they are trying to weed out a big garden before they can make it beautiful again.
 
I really wish Ronaldo (my favourite) did not have to return to OT. Ole was on the cusp of something special with that team, I still rate Ole very highly. Finishing second twice in THE LEAGUE, reaching a UEL final, all by playing swashbuckling counter attacking football. The return of Ronaldo brought jealousy and polarised the team and Ole lost the plot. I wish him well at Besiktas. We have been unlucky with managers ever since. Sad.
Couldn’t agree more. And yet, we have a large contingent in the Caf that wanted Ole out on day 1 because we weren’t playing like Barcelona or Liverpool. I had no issues with exciting, blistering counter attacks with excellent finishing. Brought the best out of Bruno, Rashford, Mason, Martial and sometimes Pogba.
 
He's been saved from relegation by the results the manager before him got

That's a very odd way of praising a manager who had us in 12th and on a downward trajectory. Caused in part by the players he signed.

ETH can't be getting any credit for what he did this season. That's mental.
 
A few rumours going about that he wants out and that he is not happy with Jim and his cronies.

I wouldn’t blame him at all if he does want out.
Then he can walk out if his contract, that means the club doesn’t have to pay him off another two years contracts, there’s also more BS from the same media outlets saying that INEOS are planing replacing him with. Xavi or ZIDANE , in other words total SPINEOS to deflect from the turmoil the club is current in, under their control of sporting issues!
 
as much as I like Amorim, he has done some big mistakes, and might have forced the process of trying to fit his style a little too much. I don’t know how this will be an advantage later as he have stated in some interviews, when there will be new players coming in after the season which will have to learn the system anyways, and players playing here today which will be gone but had to learn and play his style anyway, and lose 10 games because of it.
 
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Couldn’t agree more. And yet, we have a large contingent in the Caf that wanted Ole out on day 1 because we weren’t playing like Barcelona or Liverpool. I had no issues with exciting, blistering counter attacks with excellent finishing. Brought the best out of Bruno, Rashford, Mason, Martial and sometimes Pogba.



Or like 90 % of all posters on here called him - the PE teacher. Atleast we have a manager with a degree in football now folks!

I like Amorim, but he has failed hard so far. For example bringing back Maguire as the first name on the team sheet annoys the heck out of me. Even though he is playing better than he was before. He is still a huge liability and will for ever be the face of our most miserable period for me as a fan.

Anyways Ronaldo coming back was a massive mistake. That we can all agree on.
 
In terms of formal Management (theory) I was once told that group development has four distinct phases;

1. Forming - the bringing together/establishment of the elements of the group that will have to deliver the end result

2. Storming- the arguments, upsets, misunderstandings of role or aims that occurs usually when new group members meet/are started to be integrated with the established group/ when new ideas are put forward.

3. Norming - when the group begins to sing from the same hymn sheet/a way forward emerges/ regular patterns are established.

4. Performing - when at last the group starts to deliver what it was set up to do.

Where are we at the moment?
 
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