Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

I have just finished reading all these pages from Sunday to now.

I have seen so many people questioning the 3-4-3 formation.

Did it look this unorganized and uncoordinated when Palace beat us 2-0 using the same formation? The answer is no.

The fact some people are even saying, change to suit these players is astounding, how many of these players would get into Citys, Arsenals or Liverpools starting XI?

I am a huge fan of Amorim, do I know if he is going to be the right guy no, the football his Sporting side played in the CL was 5x faster and more technical than anything this squad can produce, he needs time to bring in the players that suit his style of football, or any modern style of football for that matter than kick and chase, 4 months during the season, is no time to truly judge a manager implementing a modern style of football on some of the lowest technical, tactical and physical bunch of United players I have ever seen in my 25 years.

That being said, he is not short of criticism:

The speed at which we play helps opposition sit deep in their shape which we cannot break down, is this to stop the basketball games?
The constant use of Hojlund as a target man who couldn't trap a bag of cement, Are we that crap at playing out?
Dalot consistently starting before all these injuries, must be someone else?

Before anyone goes if we sign only 3-4-3 players then it's no different to ETH, will be stuck with them, 3 ATB or 4 ATB the starting XI needs these players:

ST - Technical can get involved in link play, can create his own chances and scores goals.
GK - Sweeper Keeper who helps the team play a high line, play out from the back and actual makes crucial saves and doesn't throw it in his own net.
LCB - Fast, Technical can play a high line and break the lines.
CM - Athletic, technical who can cover ground win duels and dictate the tempo.

I haven't included AMs as they are more system based but we do need to look at a replacement for Bruno at some point, he's not getting any younger and can't be built around him for to much longer.

Amorim needs time same as any manager, far to much money wasted by incompetent people, on players who we can't shift or having to take a hit on, hopefully with a preseason a changing of the squad even a small amount might show some progress.

I for one hope he is going to give some of the academy lads some opportunities between now and the end of season, with current injuries I think some will be accelerated but it's what this club was built on, from the busby babes to the class of 92.
 
Marwood said:
Mid table is 8 points away. I reckon Onana alone has cost us that.

Swap our keeper with Brighton's and the two clubs likely swap positions.

There's really not much in it.
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That, and putting away chances would help. Read that we have created more big scoring opportunities than Nottingham Forest this season.
 
MUEricTheKing said:
Spot on!

When you watch Amorim's Sporting compared to United, it's almost impossible to tell that they're playing the same system. United play extremely slowly and are far more focused on positional football, even if that just means passing it around in the back five while all 11 opponents sit behind the ball. Sporting, on the other hand, play so positively and directly. They constantly utilize Gyökeres' strength and deep runs to stretch the opposition. That’s also one of Rasmus’ strengths, even if he’s just a lighter version of Gyökeres.

United, however, play in the complete opposite way—with slow buildup and a lofted ball to a striker who has two defenders on his back. And as you mentioned, Sportings two attacking midfielders are extremely active in both defense and attack, making deep runs all the time and work really hard defensive. They almost function as a hybrid between an 8 and a wide 10. As Gary Neville correctly pointed out, this system requires specialists in almost every position. We simply don’t have them.
Do we have any players who fit the system?

Who fits (maybe):

MC: Ugarte: Could see him be one of the two in midfield
RWL: Dorgu looks exiting

Maybe:

CF: Højlund: Could fit as type of player, but not sure if he is good enough
Maguire: Looks actually more comfortable in a back 3
Martinez: Could play in the left side of the back 3, god energi, but worried about his size
Bruno: He might be a fit for one of the Off C positions. Worried about his discipline in his position play both offense and defense and his general attitude. He is a good individual player, but I think it's time to build the team up around someone else.
Mount: Could be a solution on one off the Off C. But to much injured

Not sure where you fit in these players in this system:

Garnacho: He's a winger
Diallo: Exiting player but i don't think he really fit the system. Not good enough defensively to play wingback
Mainoo: Doesn't work hard enough to play MC or Off c in this system. Maybe i'm wrong?
Zirkzee: Don't really know where he can play
De ligt: Is his build up play good enough?
Dallot: Not a RWB.
Mazraoui: Not a CB or a RWB
Yoro: Don't know

The rest just needs to leave.
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Agree. Assuming that Amorim want to work towards a team that look like his Sporting teams, then people really need to look at what Sporting were doing and they will son see that we dont have the profiles.

This is why I don't understand the cry babies that were complaining about the potential of selling Mainoo and Garnacho. Yes, i understand we have a rich history of bringing through academy prospects and im all for that. But we are up against it from a financial and PSR perspective because of mistakes made in the past. Now we have a manager who is crying out for particular profile to fit his system. If he thinks that players like Garnacho and Mainoo don't fit, then we have to be ruthless and sell. Especially when the "pure profit" rules exist in PSR. A Garnacho sale would allow us to bring in two or three players and amortize their transfer fee over length of the contract.

Do we want to back the manager, or do we want him to keep players that don't fit, just because we are fond of them because they are home grown?

And yes, i know there are other players we would want rid of before Garnacho and Mainoo but the reality is the likes of Casemiro, Shaw, Maguire etc only help us free up some salary room - there wont be much of a transfer fee coming in for them.
 
I like him and with the right players I'm sure he'd be doing well.

However, I do think it's a bit naive talking up a philosophy that clearly isn't suited for the current crop of players. It's inevitable that most of them leave or have a bit part moving forward with him as manager. You have to look at the squad you have and play to the strengths of that group. We're a counter attacking team at best, that's it and that's how we should play, we do nothing with possession and our forwards have to have a 1 on 1 situation to be likely to score a goal. Let the other team pass the air out of the ball and counter attack.

Our best player is actually at his best when he's picking teams apart on the counter and he's being used as a CM which is a position that he really isn't very good at, at least not with the current team we have. He gets a lot of hate at times but he's clearly not playing his preferred position and he's also not a perfect fit for this system. He'd probably do better in it with better players around him though. Just play him in the number 10 and he steals us a few games every season - that should really be our plan, especially with Amad out.

I get it, Amorim trying to implement a new system and wants to start now but these players are so far from being the right group that we're 15th. Ain't no way we'd be in that position if we just played to the strength of the players that are currently here. We wouldn't be competing for 4th either but we'd be higher up the table. Every place down the table costs us 3 million Pounds according to the Devils Podcast. It simply crazy that we aren't setting the team up to get results rather than trying to implement a new philosophy that the majority of players have no business playing.

Ineos made a mess of things by not allowing Amorim to finish the season at Sporting. For the record, I don't want him to go, I just want him to play to the strength of the current team. He has the summer to try to figure this out with some outgoings and incomings. I hate watching United at the moment, it's terrible to see how out of depth some of these players are, I see a lot of negativity towards them as well but they simply aren't good enough/strong enough/athletic enough to be good in this system for the most part.

Hopefully Amorim proven right and all of the sudden we start getting results and the players start to perform better within the system but I just can't see the light at the end of the tunnel at the moment.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Is this guy Tier 3? Don't give him any clicks.
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Useless source. Laurie Whitwell saying we are wedded with Amorim. We are obviously in this together and it’s a long term project.

It’s not going to change anytime soon, but imagine our fans standing behind the manager for once. It’s not helping Amorim or the players being negative, warranted criticism or not.
 
@gaffs

I have to say that in this thread you have been spot on and provided a bunch of great points.
 
I still can't believe that people actually listen to Chris Wheeler of the Daily Mail.
 
If we had kept Ruud and he embarked on a similar exercise to Amorim with a new specific team structure with similar outcomes how many people would lobby for Ruud to be given at least another season and buy the players that he wants? And that's someone with a whole lot more earned goodwill at the club than Amorim.

Assess what has been put in front of you not what you hope will happen.
Most people who follow football can identify the issues in this team.
Either Amorim is ignorant to those issues or incapable of addressing them. Neither is a good scenario for a manager.
 
The minute Amorim moves away from his system and his way of playing is the start of him signing his own sacking warrant.
He told us all this would be difficult, there’s a reason he wanted to come in in the summer rather than November.
Ultimately we need to suffer - pick up another 2 wins and start again in the summer. Next year without European football (unless we somehow win the Europa League) will allow him / us to cull the squad and bring in specific recruits. A game once a week will be massive for him to implement his system.
One thing the club needs to do is protect him, he seems to give an extended interview to sky every week- is this really necessary ? Get him away from the media circus.
 
lost7 said:
This season is done, we're not gonna get relegated so might as well let Amorim play his system. Let him see which players he can work with next year and those who are a lost cause and hopefully in the summer we can have a complete rebuild. Majority of the squad needs to go and then we'll slowly introduce more and more players that fit his system.

We've already had a manager working to these players' strength with Ten Hag and we've seen how that turned out. Time to fix this club once and for all and the best way to do it is to let this season burn everything to the ground for a fresh start next season
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Why does this myth keep getting repeated? ETH absolutely did not play to the squad's strengths. He stubbornly persisted with his insane zero man midfield until the end.
 
Woziak said:
It will if he loses the next two PL games, SJR bought out Ashworth contract and then sacked him 4 months later for something not nearly as bad as a head coach losing 60% of his games in the EPL, he went through multiple coaches in no time at Nice, he has form?
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Ashworth was basically cut out by those around him. I don't think there's anyone obvious to replace Amorim, with even temporarily. Long term you're really fecked, as who would touch the job right now? Replacing the head coach and an exec are very different things.

Also, I don't think replacing him would change much. He should definitely be doing better with what we have available, but they're still mostly shit, especially after loaning out our main goalscorer and losing Amad to injury.
 
The truth is Amorim is embarrassing himself as the weeks go on. Everyone is aware of the many issues around the club outside his control but his stubbornness and lack of flexibility is a huge red flag.

He makes his system seem like it’s the most complex thing on earth and speaks of needing multiple training sessions. When we’ve played 3atb against the top teams, we’ve actually been quite impressive and frustrated teams but also offered a bit going forward ourselves. Why have we been able to adapt so well in these games? Well it’s obvious that we are more comfortable with the system when our setup is more compact and our defensive line isn’t as high.

Once we try and be on the front foot the gaps between defence and midfield are just too much to cover.

I also think we are the worst team in the history of 3 at the back at using the additional man at the back in creating attacking advantages. Most of the time the 3 CBs are in a flat line just passing to each other. There are no proving runs from deep, the DM doesn’t drop deep to collect the ball to allow the wider CBs to push up. Playing this way is absurd and we don’t create any advantages from having 3 CBs and that only makes an already terrible attack look even worse.

I often look at Chelsea under Conte in how they had the right personnel from an attacking perspective in defence to help them. David Luiz was a great long passer and was also really good at stepping into midfield with the ball. Azpilicueta was world class in drifting into that inside right channel from RCB and delivering dangerous crosses into the box. Most importantly they had Marcos Alonso a player who could get into positions that Dalot finds himself in all the time but actually be a difference maker, he could actually deliver a final ball and score on a regular basis.

Our defensive setup kills us on both ends of the pitch and he’s too stubborn to change it.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Why does this myth keep getting repeated? ETH absolutely did not play to the squad's strengths. He stubbornly persisted with his insane zero man midfield until the end.
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I think people read 4 at the back as = playing to the squad's strengths.
The formation wasn't far away from what suited the squad, as you say the tactical instructions for the players was what had clearly been exposed each time we turned the ball over.

Currently we have a lot of medicore to poor players. That's fine. At some point it will be dealt with.

At the same time we have a GK with terrible fundamentals whose unique selling point was sweeper keeper and distribution. Under Amorim we pack 5 defenders in front of him in a deep line, negating the thing he is supposed to be capable of.
Mazraoui is a good RB, an average RCB and a poor RWB.
Dalot is a suitable back up RB. Instead he is being played as a WB.
We have 3 CBs but none have either the ability, will or permission to bring the ball into midfield so we're wasting a position in the team.
In something that will be studied in future years Amorim decided to play a system requiring a specialist LWB without a LWB at the club for almost 3 months. Then when he finally got one decided to play him on the other side.
We know we have ageing midfield, every team in history has faced this at some point. You add mobility and additional players in there to compensate. Instead we leave a 33 year old to play in there by himself. Alternatively a midfield 3 allows the chance of playing a Collyer/Kone/Moorhouse and grow the squad a bit from the academy.
We're really short on technical, fast, athletic 10s. So we decide to play a system that requires two of them?
Garnacho is one of the best young wingers in football. He doesn't have much else to his game so given our attacking paucity let him play wide.
Hojlund is not a target man but is being used as one. Counter attacking football/balls in behind and we'll get some change out of him until we find a more productive CF.
 
Acquire Me said:
That, and putting away chances would help. Read that we have created more big scoring opportunities than Nottingham Forest this season.
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Yeah true.

Easy to forget as well that if we score some of these chances the game takes on a different flow.

Get yourselves a goal or two up and all of a sudden forget formations, everything starts to become natural.
 
Crimson King said:
Ashworth was basically cut out by those around him. I don't think there's anyone obvious to replace Amorim, with even temporarily. Long term you're really fecked, as who would touch the job right now? Replacing the head coach and an exec are very different things.

Also, I don't think replacing him would change much. He should definitely be doing better with what we have available, but they're still mostly shit, especially after loaning out our main goalscorer and losing Amad to injury.
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He allowed Anyony and Rashford to go out on loan because he ostracised certain players, Ruben has proven he’s a small fish in a big pond and has I proved earlier Xabi Alonso plays a similar system but he’s also smart enough to adapt having played 442, 3421, 4232 and 352 in his last 4 matches to get the right results for the club.
 
Genuine question: How long are we giving the manager?

It seems that he has a free hit this season, so as long as we dont get relegated it seems no one will call him out for the sack.

From previous managers, are we going to use the same excuses ? "hasn't got his players, how can he play his football"

If we don't improve from now to the end of the season, he should be sacked and not given money.

Managers need to earn the backing, he has not shown that if we spend 200m on his players he will improve us or even get us playing better. We are no better than under Ten Hag, only difference is we concede less goals but its relative because we dont score goals either.
 
SteveCoppellFan said:
This manager is carrying the blame for everything that has happened before he even joined United.

Its called accumulative disaster.

Have a bad routine for one day, one week, one month and you will see no difference, do it for a year, 5 years, 10 years and see what happens.

Its like health, eat good food or 5 cream cakes every day and you will not see any real difference in a month either way, do it for a year and well you know what the outcome will be.

I will always back this manager 100% because he has inherited a complete S***show of a situation and a bunch of players that have flattered to deceive for way too long now.

My worry is he will walk before we start to see improvements which will obviously take longer than he had hoped for.
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Yeah I could see him walking if he isn't given enough backing in the summer from Glazers 2.0. So to people here who have had enough already who should we get as a manager?
 
Crimson King said:
Ashworth was basically cut out by those around him. I don't think there's anyone obvious to replace Amorim, with even temporarily. Long term you're really fecked, as who would touch the job right now? Replacing the head coach and an exec are very different things.

Also, I don't think replacing him would change much. He should definitely be doing better with what we have available, but they're still mostly shit, especially after loaning out our main goalscorer and losing Amad to injury.
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Long Term there’s at least 5/6 PL managers right now who would all do a better job and be more flexible in his system. Two are Portuguese who started with 3421/343 system and now adapted to 433 systems variations.

Thomas Frank, Andoni Iraola, Fabian Hurzerler, Marco Silva, Nuno Espirito, Oliver Glasnich, and had we kept Ashworth then Eddie Howe would have been an option too?

They are all better and more experienced coaches than Amorim in the EPL None of them would be managing a mid table PL with a 55% loss rate and keep their job let alone Man United , I keep saying we need to keep him but he needs a result and one within the next two matches or he’s in real trouble?
 
croadyman said:
Yeah I could see him walking if he isn't given enough backing in the summer from Glazers 2.0. So to people here who have had enough already who should we get as a manager?
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He can walk if he wants... it will just show his mentality and belief in himself.

Top elite managers improve players, if he cannot do that, we are better of with another manager.
 
#07 said:
I think that's a fair way of looking at it and, you're right, we cannot exclude that things could change for the better.

Still, Amorim's win % is worse than Arteta's at the same stage. Plus, Arteta stands out because very few coaches follow the same path.

We fell into this trap before with giving managers 'time' because our experience was Sir Alex. However, Sir Alex was the rarity not the rule.

Pointing to the one or two times when something works out misses the 98 or 99 times when it doesn't. Right now I think its more likely Amorim is the rule rather than the exception.

I hope I am wrong. It does not make me happy seeing us slump from loss to loss. However, I see more reasons for this to continue going belly up than for it suddenly getting better: Inability to sell players at profit, inability to sign players, visible decline in confidence and results. It makes me feel that its more likely that we go into next season, have a couple of shaky results, then fall apart under the spotlight than go on an amazing run of wins.

For me, increasingly, it feels like Amorim was the right guy at the wrong time.

Knowing the club's financial position and the makeup of our squad, we should have gone for a coach better suited to the players we had on an 18 month contract and re-evaluated the situation properly at that point. We would not have won the title but we were not completely out of contention for top four in November. Look at us now...
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Your point about him being the right guy at the wrong time is very valid. This is exactly why he never wanted to take the job in November
 
Leftback99 said:
Others have already done it for me because it's ridiculous. Your man ruined this squad the more he had chance.

There's an argument we were stronger in every position bar RW.
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I‘ve seen it and it is bollocks. We raised the technical and athletic level of the squad.

Last year the squad was even worse and we finished 8th, which you all labeled as catastrophic. Where is that attitude now?
 
Woziak said:
Long Term there’s at least 5/6 PL managers right now who would all do a better job and be more flexible in his system. Two are Portuguese who started with 3421/343 system and now adapted to 433 systems variations.

Thomas Frank, Andoni Iraola, Fabian Hurzerler, Marco Silva, Nuno Espirito, Oliver Glasnich, and had we kept Ashworth then Eddie Howe would have been an option too?

They are all better and more experienced coaches than Amorim in the EPL None of them would be managing a mid table PL with a 55% loss rate and keep their job let alone Man United , I keep saying we need to keep him but he needs a result and one within the next two matches or he’s in real trouble?
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Highly doubt it, considering he came into a shit show half way through the season, it would be pretty harsh to bin him off end of season. Can't see Ineos doing that. Add to that, he wanted to come in the summer and Ineos forced it through? So they should back their man, they have to really. Speaking of all these 4 at the back formations, none of them seemed to work for Eth.

On the caf if you go back to the voting poll of who everyone would like as manager, Frank was way behing Amorim and I chose Frank.
 
Woziak said:
Long Term there’s at least 5/6 PL managers right now who would all do a better job and be more flexible in his system. Two are Portuguese who started with 3421/343 system and now adapted to 433 systems variations.

Thomas Frank, Andoni Iraola, Fabian Hurzerler, Marco Silva, Nuno Espirito, Oliver Glasnich, and had we kept Ashworth then Eddie Howe would have been an option too?

They are all better and more experienced coaches than Amorim in the EPL None of them would be managing a mid table PL with a 55% loss rate and keep their job let alone Man United , I keep saying we need to keep him but he needs a result and one within the next two matches or he’s in real trouble?
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People are living in an fools world when they say no one can do a better job. Amorim has been a disaster but People don't want to accept it because he talks nice. We keep saying give him the signings he want but that's not easy. We may not get lot of players in Summer which mean the same set of players will be here next season.

May be he isn't the manager to take us forward. Its okay to accept it and move on. Or he should be ready to make a compromise.

When you are in 17th position, that means only one thing. There are 16 better managers who has performed better than you in PL . So pretty much all of them are better than you now.
 
bond19821982 said:
People are living in an fools world when they say no one can do a better job. Amorim has been a disaster but People don't want to accept it because he talks nice. We keep saying give him the signings he want but that's not easy. We may not get lot of players in Summer which mean the same set of players will be here next season.

May be he isn't the manager to take us forward. Its okay to accept it and move on. Or he should be ready to make a compromise.

When you are in 17th position, that means only one thing. There are 16 better managers who has performed better than you in PL . So pretty much all of them are better than you now.
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Give the man time jeez
 
When ETH came, fans were saying he needed 2/3 years the club was rotten, now its prob in a worse state, so why would you expect RA to change it in 24 games or whatever, give him a chance, there's alot of rubbish that needs discarded before we can start building, granted results/performances are grim but then, so is the quality of our players
 
romufc said:
Genuine question: How long are we giving the manager?

It seems that he has a free hit this season, so as long as we dont get relegated it seems no one will call him out for the sack.

From previous managers, are we going to use the same excuses ? "hasn't got his players, how can he play his football"

If we don't improve from now to the end of the season, he should be sacked and not given money.

Managers need to earn the backing, he has not shown that if we spend 200m on his players he will improve us or even get us playing better. We are no better than under Ten Hag, only difference is we concede less goals but its relative because we dont score goals either.
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If you want to sack him at the end of the season, who’s the replacement?
 
Looking at our fixtures and there's not a single game I'm confident we can win excelt maybe Ipswich at Home. Amorim better start pulling out miracles. No way he'll survive if he doesn't beat at least half the teams left.
 
NLunited said:
I‘ve seen it and it is bollocks. We raised the technical and athletic level of the squad.

Last year the squad was even worse and we finished 8th, which you all labeled as catastrophic. Where is that attitude now?
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Utter nonsense.

And you keep ignoring the posts saying how lucky it was that we didn't finish 15th.

Ten Hag ruined us.
 
Posh Red said:
He will (survive, that is, regardless of those results)
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He won't, let's stop this. Radcliffe will not stick with a guy past May who's losing games nearly every week and give him whatever budget we have to spend. What we want may be different, but we've got to be realistic here and, I don't want him sacked for the record.
 
Posh Red said:
If you want to sack him at the end of the season, who’s the replacement?
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Ideally, I dont want him sacked.. as per my post I said IF things dont improve till end of season. He cannot leave us in 15-16th and survive, when we were 6 odd points to top 4 when he joined.

I am sure there are managers out there who can improve on what Amorim is doing. Whilst I am not working as a scout and looking at managers, my knowledge is somewhat limited to the PL.

So, I would say, Iraola would be my pick. Teams who have changed managers, have all done better than they did under the previous, we have done worse and continue on a downward spiral.

Amorim kept telling us... when I get to train them, it will change, the longer he has them in training, the worse we are getting.
 
Reiver said:
The only time, so far, when I've properly been annoyed with him was the Spurs match just gone. I wanted him to bring on some of the young lads with 15-20 minutes to go. We couldn't hit a barn door let alone score a goal and it wouldn't really have mattered if we'd conceded again. A word from him before going on could have helped take the pressure off and there you go: a few of the lads have made their senior team debut. Which, for some of them, is probably not far off anyway given current circumstances.
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Yeah I fully back him, however much like yourself I was frustrated he didn't bring on Chido Obi earlier and gave Kone plus maybe Fletcher mins as well.
 
Shark said:
He won't, let's stop this. Radcliffe will not stick with a guy past May who's losing games nearly every week and give him whatever budget we have to spend. What we want may be different, but we've got to be realistic here.
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So, if he doesn’t win at least half of the remaining games, he will be sacked?

We’ll see.
 
WPMUFC said:
Oh my god....they are actually trying it again. They are trying to sack 2 managers in a season. This club is so disgusting, I genuinely hate this squad.

I suppose Garnacho's miss is Amorims fault. I guess not being able to pass 2 metres to your team mate is amorims fault.

They are the most despicable losers in english football.
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Yeah getting hard to back them anymore isn't it
 
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