Oh the irony...
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
I dont understand why so many believe we will be able to just go out and spend £500m in the summer when the club is broke, at this moment in time we'll struggle to even find the funds to pay the signing on fee for a free transfer.
Desperate for him to succeed, so likeable. Please bin the 5221.
There’s a difference between ‘broke’ and complying with PSR.
Even with prime Casemiro and another quality defensive midfield next to him, they are still gonna struggle in this system when the 10s don’t come back and get behind the ball.
Zirkzee and Garnacho have no interest in doing that.
I posted highlights from Arsenal versus Sporting earlier in this thread. Just watch how Trincao and Goncales, the two 10s, are working their asses off in midfield when Arsenal are in possession.
If we don’t have the profiles in midfield to fit the system, then the only answer is to add more bodies in midfield. And in not taking about Maz stepping into midfield because the guy doesn’t know whether he’s coming or going.
He shouldn't be playing Bruno all the time then.
True. Our problem isn't PSR though, it's cash flow.
He needs wins to buy him time. United aren't winning sadly.
Even when we win, it is largely unconvincing so far. The performance needs to improve dramatically.
Pretty much yeah they all play 433 or a variation at 4231 check it out on line you will see this is a standard formation for all these teams and a standard framework of 4 at the back, three in midfield, three in attack.
There is yes but in our case its the club being broke rather than struggling to comply with PSR
When something isn't working, and it's clear it isn't working, most sane people adapt and change what they have been trying.
Alas, it appears that it's all or nothing with the tactical approach Amorim seems to want to employ.
It's not working, that's obvious, Amorim can see it's not working hence the 'my job is so hard' comments.
Yet he doesn't want to change it, despite the evidence showing that he needs to change it.
That's not fans living off the past, that fans seeing the wood through the trees and understanding the situation.
Amorim knows he will be here next season, I think that's the main reason he won't be changing or adapting the formation, he's playing a game of hardball, we will just have to accept that results will be poor as the system isn't working.
I agree, there is no evidence that Amorim can do any better with 4-2-3-1. But we also have a sample size now of Amorim games that show we are mostly terrible with a 3421 / 5221. We are 17th in the PL form table from the matchday 12, when he started, to now.
Given we are short in midfied, i believe a 433 / 451 would be better.
With all the best will in the world, Casemiro in central midfield two is not going to work, add two in midfield for him to play with. Bruno and Ugarte, when fit, then at least he has some legs around him.
Our "wingbacks" are not playing any differently to regular fullbacks, so why have the extra man at center back? The point of having 3 at the back is to free up those wing backs, but ours dont play with any freedom, maybe because they dont trust the recovery pace of our back three.
Garnacho is not an inside 10 and nor is Zirkzee because the requirement of that position in this system is to come back into midfield and win the ball back. Neither will ever do that. Go see how Sportings 10's would do this, as well as pressing like maniacs from the front. Another reason why 3 midfielders are needed when you dont have the support of the 10s.
My point is when ETH came in, he had far more input into the youth set up with Nick Cox and they did try playing his crazy 4-1-2-3 system at times but with far more mobile young midfielders like T Collyer, D Gore, F Mcallister, Jack Moorehouse, Jack and Tyler Fletcher, Fitzgerald and Thwaites.
ETH gave a speech to the youth team after they won the U18 PL title at carington, he was much better with the youth than many gave him credit for?
The scenario is not that different tp the las few years, first (part) season finished 11th, second season finished 2nd, then 11th and then 13th
Yes the coach has responsibilities but he's been here a matter of weeks
I like the passion but this isn't true.
It's only Mou through to Ole who didn't really change much. Ole/Carrick/McKenna tried to their credit but simply were not able to get a proper press in place (hardly surprising in hindsight given none had ever done it before). We've been pulled in a lot of tactical directions since SAF, with some success and much failure.
Ok. Beyond Dorgu looking good in one and a half games, how is this system helping these players play any better?
As you say, Casimiro is slow as hell, so why expose him in a two and have Bruno going out to press left backs?
And is Dorgu playing like a wingback? Or just like a full back?
That heatmap would suggest Spence looked more like a wing back than Dorgu, despite him playing in a back four.
So if the "wing backs" are playing like fullbacks anyway, then why not just take the extra man out of the back 3/5 and shore up a midfield with the aforementioned slow as hell Casimiro?
We play Everton at the weekend. Would you back Bruno and Casemiro to win the midfield battle against Gueye, Doucoure and Garner? Or even Bruno and Ugarte? 3 v 3 and we may have a fighting chance.
And it seems that Ruben told Sir Jim that, he said he wanted to join United but at the end of the season; however it seems his arm was twisted, or he was made an offer he couldn't refuse if he came now.
Presumably the clubs football executives thought he would come in and reshape what he had, and his own thinking, until he could get replacements. They obviously did not know the man they were bringing in, which doesn't bode well at all.
Would not surprise me to learn in the future this is exactly the reason Dan Ashworth left.
To put it bluntly: United is too broke to break PSR rules.
This season is done, we're not gonna get relegated so might as well let Amorim play his system. Let him see which players he can work with next year and those who are a lost cause and hopefully in the summer we can have a complete rebuild. Majority of the squad needs to go and then we'll slowly introduce more and more players that fit his system.
We've already had a manager working to these players' strength with Ten Hag and we've seen how that turned out. Time to fix this club once and for all and the best way to do it is to let this season burn everything to the ground for a fresh start next season
We've already had a manager working to these players' strength with Ten Hag and we've seen how that turned out. Time to fix this club once and for all and the best way to do it is to let this season burn everything to the ground for a fresh start next season
The logical thought here would simply be Amorim got immunity this season from sacking (this seems very likely to me given the way he is coming across) in order to get comfort in moving mid season.
It also doesn't seem that unlikely that Ashworth might have been against a coach with such a specific system - purely because if you think of his background, despite not really being in the weeds of recruitment, he has experience of seeing how Brighton recruited with Potter's similar formation and they churned through quite a few full backs from memory, and if we think globally about Wing Backs there really aren't that many of them around, meaning you gamble on a winger or FB and convert them.
Shipping one goal to spurs is not really a big surprise, especially away. You are right, lack of goals is the biggest issue.
Assumption#1: Ineos have got it right with Amorim. His philosophy/system/formation is the best one for the club to be back to winning ways. It will "fix the club"
Assumption#2: We will have money to overhaul all our players and gets new players in majority of the positions.
I don't know if either of the assumptions are true.
It feels like 95% of this thread want Amorim gone.
Yet I guarantee if he went to City (who have a faaaaar better squad) he’d do well and those 95% would be claiming that INEOS are inept.
I for one am happy to give him the summer to get as many recruits as he feels he needs & the *time* to train and drill this system into the players, because it clearly isn’t going in, in the limited amount he has during the season, to implement a whole new, somewhat *alien* system into the players, who have been playing in more or less the same system for half a decade (I say that because not every player has been here a decade) - there’s no wonder Amorim wanted to join in the Summer
Yet I guarantee if he went to City (who have a faaaaar better squad) he’d do well and those 95% would be claiming that INEOS are inept.
I for one am happy to give him the summer to get as many recruits as he feels he needs & the *time* to train and drill this system into the players, because it clearly isn’t going in, in the limited amount he has during the season, to implement a whole new, somewhat *alien* system into the players, who have been playing in more or less the same system for half a decade (I say that because not every player has been here a decade) - there’s no wonder Amorim wanted to join in the Summer
If this is true, I genuinely think we are doomed as a fanbase. Imagine giving up on such a promising manager after a couple of months. At least give him a summer to work with the team, get new players in and see how the next season goes
Spot on!
When you watch Amorim's Sporting compared to United, it's almost impossible to tell that they're playing the same system. United play extremely slowly and are far more focused on positional football, even if that just means passing it around in the back five while all 11 opponents sit behind the ball. Sporting, on the other hand, play so positively and directly. They constantly utilize Gyökeres' strength and deep runs to stretch the opposition. That’s also one of Rasmus’ strengths, even if he’s just a lighter version of Gyökeres.
United, however, play in the complete opposite way—with slow buildup and a lofted ball to a striker who has two defenders on his back. And as you mentioned, Sportings two attacking midfielders are extremely active in both defense and attack, making deep runs all the time and work really hard defensive. They almost function as a hybrid between an 8 and a wide 10. As Gary Neville correctly pointed out, this system requires specialists in almost every position. We simply don’t have them.
Do we have any players who fit the system?
Who fits (maybe):
MC: Ugarte: Could see him be one of the two in midfield
RWL: Dorgu looks exiting
Maybe:
CF: Højlund: Could fit as type of player, but not sure if he is good enough
Maguire: Looks actually more comfortable in a back 3
Martinez: Could play in the left side of the back 3, god energi, but worried about his size
Bruno: He might be a fit for one of the Off C positions. Worried about his discipline in his position play both offense and defense and his general attitude. He is a good individual player, but I think it's time to build the team up around someone else.
Mount: Could be a solution on one off the Off C. But to much injured
Not sure where you fit in these players in this system:
Garnacho: He's a winger
Diallo: Exiting player but i don't think he really fit the system. Not good enough defensively to play wingback
Mainoo: Doesn't work hard enough to play MC or Off c in this system. Maybe i'm wrong?
Zirkzee: Don't really know where he can play
De ligt: Is his build up play good enough?
Dallot: Not a RWB.
Mazraoui: Not a CB or a RWB
Yoro: Don't know
The rest just needs to leave.
I don't want him sacked at all, but some of the stats doing the rounds are absolutely mental, never mind that we are 15th in the table.
Only 4 wins in the PL under Amorim so far, could be a very long while until he gets 10.
10th PL game in 25 on Sunday we've failed to score a goal.
21 times in all comps this season we've failed to score in the first half of games.
Yes, the forwards are crap, but dearie me. Those are shocking. Added to the fact we have Everton at the weekend who look a totally different side, and then Fulham in the cup the following week, I struggle to see many wins the next 4-6 weeks. Ipswich will be a bloody struggle too as they have a genuine threat up top and have got some good results in difficult away games.
He needs time, absolutely. And he can't put the ball in the net for them. But something needs to change, and quickly. Cannot just keep losing games.
Only 4 wins in the PL under Amorim so far, could be a very long while until he gets 10.
10th PL game in 25 on Sunday we've failed to score a goal.
21 times in all comps this season we've failed to score in the first half of games.
Yes, the forwards are crap, but dearie me. Those are shocking. Added to the fact we have Everton at the weekend who look a totally different side, and then Fulham in the cup the following week, I struggle to see many wins the next 4-6 weeks. Ipswich will be a bloody struggle too as they have a genuine threat up top and have got some good results in difficult away games.
He needs time, absolutely. And he can't put the ball in the net for them. But something needs to change, and quickly. Cannot just keep losing games.
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It is not Amorin, I believe it is the players. There is nothing to fight for in the premier league and they don't think we will get relegated therefore the lack of effort. The reason Amorim some games were purely due to Amad's pressing and never give up attitude as well as football IQ. Garnacho is simply wasteful, Hoijund is unproductive, Zirkzee is not up to speed, Bruno's careless and wasteful. I think 2-3 quality signing will put us in a much better position. No.1 transfer target will be a striker! No.2 will be AM and lastly a CM. We will not compete for anything next season but the performance should improve.
95% wants him to have a Plan B and C, when Plan A is not working. It doesn't matter if Plan A doesn't work because of poor players or some other reason.
Also, the notion that Plan A is the best plan ever and sticking with it, even when it doesn't work, in the hope that somewhere after 10-15 games, it will all start kicking in, is just a huge leap of faith. Some on the forum are able to take that leap, many are not.
Edit: Many posters keep saying give him the summer. I am not against it, but the whole notion that we are going to sign a bucket load of players in the summer is another leap of faith. With the way Ineos is going, it is going to be "No value in the market" time.
I just hope we can weasel our way to the end of the season with some confidence still in Amorim. I don't expect a top half finish.
Back him in the Summer, ship out players who clearly don't fit the mentality or tactics - especially given PSR. Garnacho is one of those. I'd rather a player half as talented who works the system better and and have enough money on top to strengthen the squad again.
Back him in the Summer, ship out players who clearly don't fit the mentality or tactics - especially given PSR. Garnacho is one of those. I'd rather a player half as talented who works the system better and and have enough money on top to strengthen the squad again.
We are probably going to lose against Everton and keep limping on. I think the manager has been totally hung out to dry by the club but either way he's a dead man walking. I can't see how he's going to get any of this group of players up again next season unless he hands out lots of debuts and sticks with the youth then next year. Big Jim and Co took a risk and it's another decision they've got completely wrong.
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Yes, this could very well be the 'offer Ruben couldn't refuse'.
The 343 system does work, but with the right players; it's not a system where you can make do with a few square pegs in round holes, etc. Also starting from virtually '343 zero experienced' players at United, it will require a lot of 'stress testing' to set up efficiently. That is to turn some of the players we have into specialists in a 343, is going to take longer than one 'messed up' season.
Adequate summary of the situation
Why have you decided, seemingly regardless of whatever happens, that you are happy for him to stay on AND be backed with 'as many' recruits as he feels he needs? Our default stance as fans should be to sit on the fence and wait to see how a manager performs surely? Then make an assessment off that. What are you seeing that gives you the confidence to essentially allow such underperformance?
I am asking this as a genuine question, not trying to be confrontational - are you a big champion of 343 or have you followed Amorim extensively and believe he is literally the guy? I knew nothing of him as a coach bar seeing the odd CL game, I have no particular passion for 343 though I am sure it can work well, and frankly don't care if managers are slick/passionate in press conferences or speak well - I am solely judging them on what I see on the pitch. So far that has been diabolical. As a fan I live in hope we will turn it around, maybe win a cup but we are getting turned over by all comers right now, it seems unlikely.
Yeah I think that is what makes the most sense.
It's not really a case of if a formation 'works' - all formations have merit, it is more that 343 has 2 roles which have a small pool of players to recruit directly from. If I asked you to name as many right backs in football, you could likely go through 30, 40+ with a bit of time just thinking through the top leagues and there are hundreds and hundreds of them. Now do the same for RWBs, I doubt anyone could get ten without looking them up.
The players can all get fecked. Absolutely shit stains with appalling attitudes, that have got us into this mess.
Amen.
Is this guy Tier 3? Don't give him any clicks.
Exactly, we cant afford the players Ruben will need to get his tactics to work and if his tactics dont work he wont be successful here so keeping him in charge when he has shown he seemingly cant get a tune out of tbe current squad is pointless at this point and we would probably be better off letting him go and bringing in someone who can get a tune out of the current squad and possibly give us a chance of winning the Europa League or at least the FA Cup this season.
Perfectly put, no need to sugarcoat it even.