I think that's fair.
I don’t think it's fair to take problems that have been around for literally years and ask are they down to a recent change in formation.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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I think that's fair.
I don’t think it's fair to take problems that have been around for literally years and ask are they down to a recent change in formation.
Surely you aren’t suggesting our manager actually does tweak and adapt his formation during games?I said something similar a couple weeks ago
Apologies, exhausted as feck, brain isn’t computing your reply.
Just thought there were subtle adjustments which had us playing better.
You don't change a culture overnight. If Amorim is being brought in to instill a philosphy then he's totally within his rights to stick to his guns and remain stubborn. And from what it sounded like, he was. I don't care about picking up a few extra wins by appeasing the shitters we have in our squad over attempting to get things to a level they should be even if painful. Make them uncomfortable, tell them they're shit and allow them to go.
To use a weight loss analogy it's like long-term healthy habits vs quick wins. It's better to be sustainably healthy in two/three years time than look better for a few months before relapsing and repeating. We've seen these players do the latter time and time again already.
To use a weight loss analogy it's like long-term healthy habits vs quick wins. It's better to be sustainably healthy in two/three years time than look better for a few months before relapsing and repeating. We've seen these players do the latter time and time again already.
A lot of our attacks are dependent on the WBs so I see why they are high up the pitch. Need the CBs to step up and a more defensively minded midfielder. This system IF/WHEN it works can cause a lot of damage I feel, but we need a bit more quality for our attacking options .
We know these players are quite poor in most formations but maybe Amorim could try 4231 for a couple of games? Not that I think he will but it might make us 20% better? Are you happy with 3 CBs?
I'm generally less interested in formations when it comes to football. It's down the list of important things to me.
But I'm always kind of amazed that after years of problems under numerous managers fans think they can narrow down the problem to something like 3 CB's instead of 2.
Especially when all the problems we have now playing 3 CB's we had a few months ago playing 2 CB's.
No change in formations can make forwards take their chances or make goalkeepers stop making mistakes. If just those two things changed we'd get way more than a 20% improvement.
Yeah people need to calm down re Amorim. There's an article on the BBC Football website stating that nobody has improved at United in the last ten years. So expecting him to work wonders with this lot is crazy.
Give him time, there's too much trauma to deal with at the moment.
Give him time, there's too much trauma to deal with at the moment.
There are also 3 new defenders in that back 5 from last season. So what's happening there? Personnel across different sets of players?
Biggest problem for Amorim is goal scorers or lack of goal scorers. Things would be so different if we could convert some of our chances. We could see this issue under ten Hag as well.
But more importantly; Do you guys believe it would be better to stand behind the manager and players or be negative on them when we all know they are in a rough place already?
But more importantly; Do you guys believe it would be better to stand behind the manager and players or be negative on them when we all know they are in a rough place already?
I agree with your points
Can someone please explain what does Amorim's stubborness teach the players. Is current formation the one Amorim will use next season? Are the players getting better at it and can we see the results on the pitch? If not, then it would just demoralize the squad, as of now it looks like we can lose against anybody in the prem.
I agree with you that too much is made of formation. However, I’m sure I seen a chart showing under Amorim we are conceding less chances and less goals, but we are not creating as many chances as we did u see ten hag( and from memory we hardly created any under him either) so adding another defender by taking one from attack is having some kind of affect
I don't think he will change.
Ruben is a forty year old manager who has hit the top of his profession, securing one (if not the top) football manager's job at United, and really at a young age. Amorim has secured this position because of his belief in a 343 system, and he has demonstrated to himself and to others, it can work with the right squad of players.
Clearly to secure this job he has been forced to go early and has found himself thrown into the 'abyss' that is currently Manchester United Football Club.
Can he change, even if he wanted too? Has he enough experience, never mind determination, to change something he believes in passionately, for something that can change little of what has already passed this season? He seems not to be unnerved by some players antics, leaks to the press, etc. he is clear about what he is trying to achieve and what he wants, and there are some signs that a number of players are now trying to respond.
Ruben is still young and believes passionately in what he is doing. He has come to United to change things significantly and to make a difference... isn't that what we all want?
Stand behind manager and most players. Amorim has been forthright and dealt with Rashford. Let him continue for now.
It could be the extra defender but it could be various other stuff as well.
And maybe it was necessary to start conceding less firstly.
Who knows I suppose.
But in my opinion there's big, obvious, indisputable stuff to sort before looking at formation detail or when in a game a 17 year old should be subbed on.
Now break it down by ETH, Ruud and Amorim?
I don't think we have that data.
You're right, all benefitting us massively as all the underlying data showed.
Yep 15th because of this terrible squad your man built.
Well, formation/tactics and player development are the two areas Amorim must focus on. There won’t be 250m to spend this summer so he has to improve what he already has. I don't see that improvement, maybe others do. I know Ruud's tenure is a small sample size but we were at least decent. And I think a top 4231 manager could get more out of this team than Amorim's system but I could of course be wrong and of course this squad is not top 6 material.
And if could be broken down to player level the winner would be ...... I'm guessing Garnacho followed by Bruno??
Do we have Ruud’s?
Now I guess we work out the per game (as assume Amorim has had the most games by a margin)
Sorry what agenda, what are you on about?
I'm saying if he thought it would be difficult to implement his system with the players we currently have then he probably shouldn't have taken the job as he will also be aware we are skint and he will have to work with the majority of these players for a few years.
How do you know this?
Irrelevant. Those 5 probably played about 10 games between them for United last season. So as I say they were non entities as in they weren't viable squad options.
Yeah, I get that. We are having massive trouble creating chances as well as scoring them at the moment too though. I am happy that we’ve tightened up the defensive side of things too.
I also agree re the moaning about subbing/not subbing 17 year olds on too
I mean sticking with his chosen formation to start games is fair enough I suppose. But even in games we are sticking to the same system/formation very rigidly. Even when were chasing games we don't sacrifice a defender for an extra attacker. We start and finish most games with pretty much the same set-up. So I've no idea what he's shouting about on the touchline for 90 minutes every game.
How is a daft pen against us benefitting us massively? We were certainly not lucky last season.
So, according to you Ten Hag massively overperformed last season?
You are arguing in bad faith, changing your tack to fit your agenda.
Now apply the same standards to our current situation. Eighth was unacceptable/catastrophic. How about 15th?
It's a PL stat, Amorim has managed 14 of our 25 games. In other words, we created 23 big chances out of 11 games and then 26 big chances out of 14 games which respectively represent 2.09 and 1.86 big chances per game.
Yes the optics would be horrible and further reinforce the amateur hour vibe under INEOS
What's the threshold here ? How long will we wait and see if something changes ?
If he isn't willing to change, what other options do we have here ?
I don’t want him to change
I'm not sure Amorim should change as I think Ten Hag's problems were partly to do with him not going whole-hog - he was sort of halfway-house and thus never really developed a style.
That said, I think all managers need to be have a degree of flexibility with regard to systems - slavishly playing the same one all the time can lead to predictability. In addition, I've always regarded three centre-backs as wholly unnecessary and I think it detracts from other areas of the field.
That said, I think all managers need to be have a degree of flexibility with regard to systems - slavishly playing the same one all the time can lead to predictability. In addition, I've always regarded three centre-backs as wholly unnecessary and I think it detracts from other areas of the field.
The honest truth is that how we play is not a 100 miles off what he wants. His Sporting team were not possession hogs and were very much built to break when playing through the middle; they usually combined quickly to get through the midfield, using the striker and 2 quick tens to attack. They sometimes had their striker move into channels, playing balls into him, with the team rushing in to support. For more possession based games against weaker teams, they heavily used the flanks, using low balls and midfielders coming into the box.
At Sporting, the team had to win lots of duels, but had the support of a strong defence. Once they got the ball into midfield, the attack was smooth from there. However, with his sporting teams, even when they didn't do this, their physical superiority to other teams meant that they could win duels higher up the pitch and attack from there. In addition, Gyokeres was a monster.
My point here is that its actually not completely on the players. His teams were never possession based and regularly gave up possession. The formation also invited pressure, and that Sporting team did lost the ball in their half at times. However, when they were able to get the ball into the midfield, their attack was really good. For a team like us, learning his system, its quite easy to see why we're struggling. Its not easy to have a system that invites pressure from the opposition and have to play through that, especially when you're not used to dealing with that kind of stress. We also don't have a midfielder who can relieve some of that stress from our defenders or a striker with the monster abilities that Gyorkeres had in aggressively running down the channels. His system wasn't perfect at Sporting, but he was lucky enough not to have to deal with the level of physicality and threat of teams in the Premier League.
I think given time, we will actually become a pretty solid team defensively. We've struggled with set pieces, but usually we aren't struggling to keep teams at bay. Amorim is a young coach and he's going to have to adapt to the league. He didn't have to worry about getting through midfield as much at Sporting because he could rely on winning physical duels and a great striker comparative to defenders faced. At United, he's learning that teams are far more aggressive and that winning duels in midfield isn't a guarantee. As a result, he has to look at our formation and tactics and identify what tweaks he has to make to ensure we can build up consistently without consistently having to face duels. This may mean a change in formation if I'm being honest, but its important he adapts.
Isnt the whole point of his sytem playing with attacking wingbacks so that they can help with the buildup, get the ball forward and traps teams into their own half? You say they are too far up but I would argue they aren't high enough the vast majority of his time here so far. They sit way too deep giving us a flat back 5 and then teams just stroll through the middle of the park like nobodies there.
I‘m not sure what you are trying to prove here. Over a season, luck levels out and xG is a fickle beast as we all know.
You‘d kill for 8th position right now, folks.
Exactly, context is important. If you extrapolate it out against the league, Amorim drops another place down below Fulham into 12th but stays just above Brighton (1.8 big chances a game).
I mean both at the same time, we don't have mobile enough CB's or CM's who can cover 2 empty flanks and the middle of the pitch at the same time
The majority of the problems we have stem from losing the ball high up the pitch and the opposition just play thru the space left behind
No it doesn't, we were extremely lucky. It's really that simple.
I’ve been very patient compared to others with Ineos, but if they do that then it’ll confirm 100%, signed and sealed, that they don’t know what they’re doing. Given his reluctance to leave mid season, they have to have given him some assurances. So to do yet another 180 would just be next level incompetence and would show that they have no conviction in their ideas whatsoever.
Basically he’s not going anywhere and they know they’ve fecked him and owe him massively for taking this on.