Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[lex talionis]

Except that we had 5 managers in those 10 years. It’s not patience If you keep sacking managers every time they finish outside the top 4 is it?

What this club did to Ole was a level of self sabotage of enormous proportions. After running the club like a drunken sailor we managed to fluke into a manager that truly understood the job and got two top 4 finishes in a row, with a genuine connection to the fans to boot, and then we forced an ageing Ronaldo onto him and sacked him when that didn’t work, only to get rid of Ronaldo the next year too.

Ever since then I’ve known there’s no saving this club. The only possible path forward is to get relegated and hopefully make a fresh comeback in the league in a few years.

PS: the fan base hasn’t been as enthusiastic as it was when we were singing “Ole’s at the wheel” and literally bouncing into every stadium. I miss those days as a fan. Even if we lost, I enjoyed supporting this club. It brought back the romance of football to a dull, cynical game and I fear it’s never coming back - so I apologize if I seem bitter

5 managers in 10 years sounds daft on its face, but what was daft were the managers we hired.

Moyes was vastly underqualified for the job, so that's mistake #1. Van Gaal had us playing dreadful football, so that's mistake #2. Mourinho was a toxic spitbag, mistake #3.

Ole was an inspired choice as interim manager and at this point I will acknowledge that making him permanent was a really bad idea, but what was an even worse idea was bringing Ronaldo back. We could start a new thread on Ole but what has to be acknowledged right here is that we were in a downward spiral with no hope of climbing out of it while he was manager. Whether it was hiring Ole or sacking Ole, mistake #4.

Then Erik ten Hag, mistake #5. True, he did bring in two minor cups but we were nowhere near PL title contention under his tenure and we all know about his signings.

We agree on the conclusion, that we are a badly run club. I don't agree that we need to be relegated first in order to return to our former glory, but I agree with what I think you're really saying, which is that we need to perform open heart surgery on the squad rather than plug gaps with aging stars like Ronaldo and Casemiro.

I said it then, and I stand by what we said then...we should have listened to Ralf and begun the open heart surgery immediately with him as sporting director or whatever his title would have been, and brought in a manager with progressive ideals but who also had the personal charisma to get the players to buy into the club's vision. Instead, we brought in the Dutch equivalent of Baghdad Bob.

 

[DSG]

People focus on formation because they are unfamiliar with it and that is the only difference people can clearly see from armchairs hence that is the problem. We were shit with 4 at the back too, so it is not like 4 at the back will change fortunes simply by virtue of 4 at the back, but rather the implementation of the current formation likely needs to improve. I'd understand it more if he was playing something wild like 325 that no one has ever seen before.

To be honest, it is hard for us to judge most things in football because we have close to zero actual knowledge of what is going on behind closed doors (not saying we can't speculate, but just that is why people often jump on the things that appear clearest to them and state those reasons as fact). It is the same way that a lot of discrimination works in the brain, people fearful of something different and thus blame that difference for things without any real critical evaluation.

There are some defining football tactics books that go through the history of formations and tactics…

People focus on formation because they are unfamiliar with it and that is the only difference people can clearly see from armchairs hence that is the problem. We were shit with 4 at the back too, so it is not like 4 at the back will change fortunes simply by virtue of 4 at the back, but rather the implementation of the current formation likely needs to improve. I'd understand it more if he was playing something wild like 325 that no one has ever seen before.

To be honest, it is hard for us to judge most things in football because we have close to zero actual knowledge of what is going on behind closed doors (not saying we can't speculate, but just that is why people often jump on the things that appear clearest to them and state those reasons as fact). It is the same way that a lot of discrimination works in the brain, people fearful of something different and thus blame that difference for things without any real critical evaluation.

It’s funny you mention a 3-2-5 because that’s what most top managers are trying to get to when in attack. Historically, the 3-2-5 was the standard formation. Why does Pep pinch in one fullback? Klopp with TAA in midfield? Amorim likes the 3-4-2-1 because it naturally morphs into that formation and clearly defines the roles.

Personally, in defense I think a 4-4-2 is the hardest to break down, Amorim prefers a 5-4-1. Watch Real… even with Rodrigo, it’s a 4-4-2, then a 4-3-3 when attacking with the FBs providing extra width, the weak side FB acting as a 3rd CB. And they’ve only won 6 of the last 10 Champions League titles.

Imagine this formation:

Courtois
Ruben Dias. Rudiger. Virgil Van Dyke
Hakimi. Rodri. Kimmich. Davies
Musiala. Palmer
Haaland


Our problem is not formation. It’s talent and depth. The 11 above in a 3-4-2-1 would win the PL and most likely the CL most years. Seriously, most in the Caf keep banging on about formation, but it really isn’t about that. INEOS fecked us up by keeping Ten Hag, who was a very poor judge of talent, wasting more money on sub par signings and not addressing a massive hole in the squad (left back and quality striker).

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

He was wrongfully scapegoated for the same issue that plague us today. The difference is his could ham and egg his way through good performances from the likes of Lingard and McFred instead of stubbornly leading us with his “progressive style” into a relegation battle.

Maybe this should tell you that his bad performances are something we would aspire to right now. And he was not rightfully sacked. Until our fans can accept that we will continue to be in this cycle indefinitely regardless of who we bring in and however much money we spend. Arteta finished 8th 2 years in a row before he got Arsenal to be competitive. But our fans shit the bed and backstabbed the best thing that happened to this club post Ferguson because he wasn’t a hipster enough name.

Bore off, this isn't the thread for crying over your hero.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Alderaan

Too soon.

 

[NLunited]

Can any of the stattos or tactical experts on here share any figures about where things might actually be improving, without it being immediately obvious? Im being serious, I genuinely need to see some signs of light. Anything out there?

Nope, we are going backwards now. I‘m hoping for a miracle.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I mean, which victories to write home about did we have? Our best result was a draw at Anfield and a win against shambolic City

I think he means the jaw-dropping victories over Bodo Glimt and Viktoria Plzen.

 

[The-Mezzala]

I think he was convinced he could get most of the squad to adapt and play his system with some competence. He needs to get to the summer and see what money he has to work with. The trouble is Amorim won’t change and these players don’t look like like they can adapt. So its going to be another long end to the season. I get the vibe from him he is regretting taking the job and thought because of the FA cup win last season he could steady the ship and re build in the summer.

 

[pocco]

I think he means the jaw-dropping victories over Bodo Glimt and Viktoria Plzen.

We couldn’t even manage that until he arrived with his 343.

 

[SER19]

He really shot himself in the foot by being so dramatic in saying that if he changes anything he is finished. The very best managers adapt - to injury crises, to poor runs of form and so on. Straying from his 'system' doesnt mean it still wouldnt be the primary system at the club. But at this point it's hard to believe we wouldn't be getting better results by playing another way.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Now compare time frames, money spent and position they started from.

You can, if you want. The point is that a large group blame only the players, and another large group blame only the manager, when the reality is it takes both players and the manager to be a success or a failure.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Perfect taken goal by @Desert Eagle

9,000 posts and not a single "like". Interesting.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Because some of them were here the whole this time?

The timeframe in your post was the last 5-10 years.

How many / which of our first team players were around 5 years ago? What about 10 years ago?

Think you'll come to find not a lot of them. We've turned over the squad multiple times.

 

[pocco]

He really shot himself in the foot by being so dramatic in saying that if he changes anything he is finished. The very best managers adapt - to injury crises, to poor runs of form and so on. Straying from his 'system' doesnt mean it still wouldnt be the primary system at the club. But at this point it's hard to believe we wouldn't be getting better results by playing another way.

I get what you’re saying but there’s not many coaches who are asked to completely change their system are there. Nobody questions formation if it’s a 4atb type of formation. The questions then are always about personnel.

The problem for him is that he’s achieved everything with this system. He was failing in his first job when using a 4atb formation, and saved his job by switching to this. And he’s never looked back. So I can understand where he’s coming from as he’s never had any success with a different system and there’s an argument to be made that, if his system doesn’t work or isn’t favoured, then why not hire somebody that specialises in the system we want? Why should anybody believe he’s the best man for the job in that case? I think that’s what he was alluding to. And this doesn’t all happen in a vacuum either. I imagine he’s had very lengthy discussions with the club about his system and why he wants to use it, so what does it say to them if he changes it up?

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

All very young is no excuse. We have very underwhelming starters and none of them is of undisputed quality. Casemiro should have been subbed at half time for whoever was supposed to be a CM option. Nobody would have held that against Amorim.

No but I get why he didn’t, and equally I don’t think it should be held against him. Other things yes.

 

[Skills]

I think he's potentially the right manager at the wrong time. And it all falls back to our underlying obsession that a manager/head coach has to be a key part of a rebuild.

We probably needed a transitional manager for 12-18 months, who would just see us through this season by improving Ten Hag's shitshow and while we made moves in the transfermarket getting ready for a manager like Amorin.

And then we felt, we were a window away from the squad being ready, it was time to sack said manager and bring Amorin in.

I think people underestimate narrative, morale & momentum for an organisation - especially a football club. The constant scrutiny, low morale, heavy criticism isn't a healthy environment for developing a young squad - to a degree you have to keep winning, or at least not losing.

I like him more than I've liked any of our previous managers as he seems quite level headed, but I also understand that sometimes when the tide is so strongly against you - you're unlikely to turn it around.

I thought we might do something notable in the Europa league or FA Cup this season, but Amads injuries probably washed that away. I still hold a glimmer of hope that he can actually actually win one of them, and turn the narrative around this season because he'll be under huge pressure at the start of next season if there isn't any light at the end of this.

 

[V.O.]

9,000 posts and not a single "like". Interesting.

What?

They're used for the newbie system which wasn't around when he signed up and modmins memeing in the general.

 

[Sarni]

If Ipswich beats Spurs and we lose to Everton and then Ipswich beats us they'd be within 6 points of us

Which is still a significant gap for a team that got 17 from 25 so far. Definitely wouldn’t make our next game a must win.

 

[Walter Sobchak]

Find it extremely boring the constant takes that the issues he's facing are down to his 'system', frankly a lazy and reductive stance.

 

[USREDEVIL]

I think after writing and deleting some shit, my conclusion is:

We are going to need a big and successful summer window. Or this manager will be gone.

 

[NLunited]

I may be completely wrong here and the problem may lie elsewhere, but I see players who at times cant do the basics. They are not all that bad. Why is that? Lack of confidence? Is half of their mind on the new technical and tactical aspect of the game?

That‘s my impression as well. They are not doing the basics consistently. It was like that under Ten Hag and it is the same under Amorim.

My major concern at the moment is that there doesn't seem to be any real progress in terms of the overall performances.

Agreed, after a brief improvement we are going backwards.

This thread is mostly the same 4-5 people spinning the 'sack Amorim because Ten Hag was better' drivel in 101 different ways, there's an update from them almost every 5 minutes . Hellbent on peddling the narrative that Amorim is the worst manager ever and our players are top 4 material. This is exactly the short-sighted ignorance that has landed us as a club and a fanbase where we are today. Instant gratification or bust. Preferring to paper over the cracks and fluke an 8th place so we can pretend we're still part of the elite. Don't even need rival WUMs when our own fanbase screws themselves so well.

No one is saying we should sack Amorim. People want to see some improvement and we ate not seeing it. On the contrary.

Seriously, most in the Caf keep banging on about formation, but it really isn’t about that.

Agreed, it is just an easy thing to point to when things aren‘t working.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

9,000 posts and not a single "like". Interesting.

In a thread which is full of your shitty posts this one maybe takes the cake

 

[USREDEVIL]

In a thread which is full of your shitty posts this one maybe takes the cake

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I think he's potentially the right manager at the wrong time. And it all falls back to our underlying obsession that a manager/head coach has to be a key part of a rebuild.

We probably needed a transitional manager for 12-18 months, who would just see us through this season by improving Ten Hag's shitshow and while we made moves in the transfermarket getting ready for a manager like Amorin.

And then we felt, we were a window away from the squad being ready, it was time to sack said manager and bring Amorin in.

I think people underestimate narrative, morale & momentum for an organisation - especially a football club. The constant scrutiny that we're under, low morale, heavy criticism isn't a healthy environment for developing a young squad - to a degree you have to keep winning, or at least not losing.

I like him more than I've liked any of our previous managers as he seems quite level headed, but I also understand that sometimes when the tide is so strongly against you - you're unlikely to turn it around.

I thought we might do something notable in the Europa league or FA Cup this season, but Amads injuries probably washed that away. I still hold a glimmer of hope that he can actually actually win one of them, and turn the narrative around this season because he'll be under huge pressure at the start of next season if there isn't any light at the end of this.

Agree on all points. "Right manager at the wrong time" sums up how I feel, which is unfortunate as I like him a lot and really want him to succeed.

By most accounts, the idea of the transitional manager is what Ashworth advocated (and ultimately got the sack) for - bring a non-sexy name in to work with what he's got and steady the ship while the club cleans up its finances and the squad.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I see lot of his quotes on social media. Does he do more interviews than it is mandatory?

 

[Eric_the_Red99]

The way Amorin fans go on about his system you’d think that he’s been a proven world beater in several top European leagues and the Champions league over two or three decades, instead of just winning a couple of league titles and three league cups in, let’s face it, a farmers league.

I’m not an Amorin-outer (yet) but I just don’t understand where this blind, unquestioning faith that he’s the football Messiah comes from.

 

[Marwood]

The first thing is that a manager can get the best out of an existing squad, but that might not be enough for the club to achieve its ultimate targets. Hence they improve the squad. No contradiction there.

The second thing is that all squads have some degree of year-by-year turnover, because players age, lose quality, choose to leave, etc. So any manager who is at a club over a long period of time will see a changed squad and XI. For example, the starting lineup for Liverpool in the 2016 EL final was: Mignolet, Clyne, Lovren, Toure, Moreno, Milner, Can, Lallana, Firmino, Coutinho, Sturridge. They lost some to quality, but Coutinho left to join Barcelona, Sturridge suffered injuries most of his career and was no longer reliable, Toure retired in 2017, Milner was already in his mid-30s when Liverpool played the CL final.

OK but who decides what that squads best is? It's so subjective.

Ultimately Klopp bought almost a new starting XI. Pep bought plenty at City despite already having a bunch of top players.

What do we think those two would do at United in the summer. Would they say "just give me a couple of new players, I'll work with the rest."

I don't think so. They'd want 8 new players.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

OK but who decides what that squads best is? It's so subjective.

Ultimately Klopp bought almost a new starting XI. Pep bought plenty at City despite already having a bunch of top players.

What do we think those two would do at United in the summer. Would they say "just give me a couple of new players, I'll work with the rest."

I don't think so. They'd want 8 new players.

That's great, but unfortunately we don't have that luxury, as we've indulged previous managers with transfers and now we're broke.

 

[askabob]

He can be as honest and well spoken as he wants in his interviews but if he doesn’t turn results around he needs to go. This is actual relegation which even ETH didn’t have.

 

[Ish]

In a thread which is full of your shitty posts this one maybe takes the cake

Savage

 

[Escobar]

We should have hired a 4231 manager who could just stabilize the team in 6-8th spot and then take it from there. This idea of 3421 is really annoying. Don't complicate things in this difficult situation.

And then finish 6-9th? We need someone who has much more potential than just fill a gap again and try to motivate bloody Rashford to train like a pro.
We need that hard cut now and badly. The only issue for me are our finances and inability to build a squad.

 

[Fox outside the box]

Bore off, this isn't the thread for crying over your hero.

What a pathetic response.

Problem is, it seems a vast majority of our "fans" have this level of ability to engage and discuss.

And everyone wonders why the toxicity remains at the club. You got rid of the managers, the players, the backroom staff, the guys at the top and yet it still remains.......

Hmmmm, what could possibly be the most vocal, consistent thing during that time.....?

The toxicity and issues with the club may be sat a lot closer to home for a lot of "fans" than they realise.

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

OK but who decides what that squads best is? It's so subjective.

Ultimately Klopp bought almost a new starting XI. Pep bought plenty at City despite already having a bunch of top players.

What do we think those two would do at United in the summer. Would they say "just give me a couple of new players, I'll work with the rest."

I don't think so. They'd want 8 new players.

Klopp did ok when he first arrived at Liverpool though. As I said earlier in the thread, he reached the Europa League final which ultimately bought him the time to rebuild the squad. He also finished 8th rather than fecking 15th. They then got into the top 4 in Klopp’s first full season.

City's entire structure was built around Guardiola arriving aswell so they were always going to allow him time and a huge budget.

Both entirely different situations to the current mess at United.

 

[pocco]

The way Amorin fans go on about his system you’d think that he’s been a proven world beater in several top European leagues and the Champions league over two or three decades, instead of just winning a couple of league titles and three league cups in, let’s face it, a farmers league.

I’m not an Amorin-outer (yet) but I just don’t understand where this blind, unquestioning faith that he’s the football Messiah comes from.

Pretty sure he’s beaten both City and Arsenal with Sporting. He barely ever lost a game in the Portuguese league in his last season.

At the end of the day he got hired based on what he’d done, he no doubt had many conversations with the club about the system he will be looking to play. Nobody can blame him for doing what he knows best. It’s up to the club to either back him to make it work, and they clearly knew before they hired him that it will need backing, or they try somebody else.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

In a thread which is full of your shitty posts this one maybe takes the cake

Does your edge lord shtick work anywhere?

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

What a pathetic response.

Problem is, it seems a vast majority of our "fans" have this level of ability to engage and discuss.

And everyone wonders why the toxicity remains at the club. You got rid of the managers, the players, the backroom staff, the guys at the top and yet it still remains.......

Hmmmm, what could possibly be the most vocal, consistent thing during that time.....?

The toxicity and issues with the club may be sat a lot closer to home for a lot of "fans" than they realise.

Have you seen the title of this thread? What point is there in clogging it up with agenda posting from butthurt Ole fans 3 years after his sacking? It has no relevance to Amorim whatsoever.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

Does your edge lord shtick work anywhere?

absolutely everywhere

 

[VivaJesperBlomqvist]

Yup, this necessary pain idea is just because Amorim can't say in public what he thinks about our poor players. After the summer he will be out of excuses unless we have a terrific transfer window.

Wait. He will have excuses IF we have a terrific transfer window? I keep rereading this sentence.

 

[Marwood]

Klopp did ok when he first arrived at Liverpool though. As I said earlier in the thread, he reached the Europa League final which ultimately bought him the time to rebuild the squad. He also finished 8th rather than fecking 15th. They then got into the top 4 in Klopp’s first full season.

City's entire structure was built around Guardiola arriving aswell so they were always going to allow him time and a huge budget.

Both entirely different situations to the current mess at United.

Well exactly. They were in much better situations and still bought a load of new players as opposed to getting the best out of what they had.

This idea Amorim needing/wanting a bunch of new players to get the team performing is somehow a negative upon him is overly harsh.

Every manager would need plenty of new faces with this bunch. Every fan should want that as well. You can't coach Onana to stop making mistakes. You can't coach young players to become better finishers in just a few weeks.

 

[VivaJesperBlomqvist]

He was wrongfully scapegoated for the same issue that plague us today. The difference is his could ham and egg his way through good performances from the likes of Lingard and McFred instead of stubbornly leading us with his “progressive style” into a relegation battle.

Maybe this should tell you that his bad performances are something we would aspire to right now. And he was not rightfully sacked. Until our fans can accept that we will continue to be in this cycle indefinitely regardless of who we bring in and however much money we spend. Arteta finished 8th 2 years in a row before he got Arsenal to be competitive. But our fans shit the bed and backstabbed the best thing that happened to this club post Ferguson because he wasn’t a hipster enough name.

We all love Ole, but what told you he could be an elite level manager?

ETH was worse though.

Let’s be honest, we simply haven’t gotten the right man yet since SAF left. Regardless of ‘structure’.

 

[Acquire Me]

9,000 posts and not a single "like". Interesting.