Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

I wouldn't use the Spurs game as a case study for what is wrong with Amorim.

The squad was threadbare with injures and the midfield especially was a needs must scenario. I doubt a Bruno/Casemiro duo would have been used if he had at least one other senior MF fit.
 
I'm quite optimistic, especially considering that he had a slow start at Sporting as well, from what I've heard. It took time for him to implement his philosophy and get the right players in place, but once that happened, his team began delivering consistent performances and results.
 
I'm quite optimistic, especially considering that he had a slow start at Sporting as well, from what I've heard. It took time for him to implement his philosophy and get the right players in place, but once that happened, his team began delivering consistent performances and results.
Completely different league, only 3 big clubs. Easier opposition. Much easier job.
 
That is just one of many...

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So much Space for Spurs. Maz doent know to hold in the line or come out to his man.

Time and again, the bodies are just in the wrong area of the field.

This is something that has bugged me for a while and seems to have got more prevalent with us. Palace were doing something similar, many teams have. Keep wingers high and wide to force us into a flat 5.

The most disappointing thing for me is that, at Sporting, he pushed a CB forward to help pick up men centrally, or was more aggressive with his wing backs. I just don’t understand why he’s allowing it to happen. And we’re never fully committed to the press in the final third, allowing other teams an easy escape. It feels like he’s falling into the same trap as Ten Hag with this half press, half low block shit. Is it personnel forcing it? Are they ignoring instruction? It just seems a simple thing to fix yet he’s allowing it to continue.

Some of our best periods have come when we’ve been chasing games and suddenly we become more proactive and aggressive. The answers lie right in front of us, yet we still look far too negative.
 
His lack of adaptability, or rather unwillingness to adapt is what will cost him his job unfortunately.

That graphic posted above by @gaffs is quite telling. Absolutely criminal and naive tactical set up which will get you decimated in the PL, and so its been the case!

Such a shame, I really wanted it to work out :(

It's a byproduct of suboptimal positioning and one of the known risks of formations with wingbacks. If the opposition target it properly they can turn your back 3 into a permanent back 5.

It's not naivety or criminal per se, it's also not how the team is set up but it is how the setup will turn if the opposition target the space behind the wingbacks. There are ways to mitigate or even negate it but you need to drill the team tactically and make sure that they trust the system.

Typically there are three obvious approaches, you use a sliding coverage so the entirety of the back three slides and for example the RCB is the one covering Son, in that case you don't mark closely the opposing side attacker. You can also stretch the back line, in this case the RCB and maybe CCB stretch to the right which creates a gap between the LCB and CCB but it can be covered(not occupied) by the LCM. A third option is to defend in an asymetric 4321, the closest wingback drops to form a back and the CMs and remaining wingback operate as narrow middle three, you can even defend in 4411 if one of the AM drops on the farthest side.
 
Well let's see Amorim have his first full season with three new first XI players.

Hopefully improve and then change almost the entire first XI as Klopp did.

But Klopp or whoever, managers need players. It's not their job to get the best out of the players they inherit. Their job is to create the best team they can, however they can.

Excuses. He's the manager and those are his players.

How did Wenger lead that Arsenal team to win the league in his first full season?

With the right tactics and man-management, the players Amorim inherited could easily of challenged for the top four. But, like most modern coaches; he's overcomplicating football.

All he had to do was adopt a 4231 bit with different personnel and tactics than ETH.

I still think he's capable of turning things around but pressures mounting
 
It's even worse when you go into context

City- we were losing 0-1 in the 86th minute until they committed a dumb penalty and Bruno pulled it to 1-1 and then Amad scored the winner
Southampton- we were losing 0-1 in the 81st minute and then Amad carried us to victory with a 12 minute hat-trick
Fulham- Took a world class deflection from a Martinez shot and Collyer heading a ball that was going into the net if he wasn't there
Only the Everton win was a comfortable win, up 2-0 at HT and then 3-0 before people were back in their seats for the 2nd half.

Going even further
The goal vs Ipswich was Rashford, assisted by Amad
The penalty vs City was setup by Amad being fouled and the winning goal was Amad (assisted by Martinez)
The goals vs Liverpool were Martinez and Amad
The goals vs Southampton was Amad
The goal vs Fulham was Martinez
2 of the goals vs Everton were Rashford and 2 assists were Amad

As for the other goals scored in those 14 matches
2 Bruno penalties
Zirkzee 2 goals vs Everton (1 assisted by Amad)
Hojlund vs Forest
Bruno vs Forest (assisted by Amad)

So out of the 16 goals scored 13 goals had involvement from 3 players that are unavailable the rest of the season

DIRE
Jesus wept :lol:
 
Yes but I think the point the poster is making is Manager A had the same issues to contend with, arguably more issues given the off field drama he had to endure.
I think my broader worry now we've had a decent amount of games under Amorim is that all PL teams have zero issues setting up to face the 343 setup, and the fact we try and play quite slow possession football seems to compound the issue, they kind of sit off but pressure it when it goes wide and then, when we run out of patience, we either go long or try and build through the middle and that is where we really struggle.

The previous manager did spend about 700m though let’s not forget that
 
What system does the youth teams play?
433 or 4231 not 3421 that is worrying and there’s seems to be less connection between youth and full men’s team than ETH had with Nick Cox, apparently Ruben is very closed and insular, and really only confides in his own coaching team, yes he calls them up for training but he’s showing lots and lots of rookie traits as a Man United head coach right now.
 
That is just one of many...

8xxtBIk.jpg


ff1q0QM.jpg


So much Space for Spurs. Maz doent know to hold in the line or come out to his man.

Time and again, the bodies are just in the wrong area of the field.
Wow this is 5-1-4 out of possession with Bruno trying to press the left back, the 5 Man defence is crazy at sporting one of the spare CB’s go into midfield, but MDL and Maguire both lack the pace to do that, Maguire is capable on the ball but needs a Varane type fast peak elite CB next to him, Jesus we are starting to realise how good Raphael was even though he was only fit 65% of the time?

I maintain most of our best performances under ETH where with Martinez and Varane’s partnership that definitely was top 4 at the time.
 
This is something that has bugged me for a while and seems to have got more prevalent with us. Palace were doing something similar, many teams have. Keep wingers high and wide to force us into a flat 5.

The most disappointing thing for me is that, at Sporting, he pushed a CB forward to help pick up men centrally, or was more aggressive with his wing backs. I just don’t understand why he’s allowing it to happen. And we’re never fully committed to the press in the final third, allowing other teams an easy escape. It feels like he’s falling into the same trap as Ten Hag with this half press, half low block shit. Is it personnel forcing it? Are they ignoring instruction? It just seems a simple thing to fix yet he’s allowing it to continue.

Some of our best periods have come when we’ve been chasing games and suddenly we become more proactive and aggressive. The answers lie right in front of us, yet we still look far too negative.

Im not sure i have the answer to that. I will say that for Arsenal's first goal in this game, the right back gets push back by Martinelli in a similar way that Dalot was being...



Watching these highlights, plus the first leg...



The big differences i see are....

Fitness and pace - the Sporting players look like they are playing at 1.5x speed when compared to watching United.

The team is compact and the midfield are more like a 4, infront of the 5 when defending, with the two 10s helping out. They are hunting in packs when Arsenal have the ball.

Technical players and ball carriers - Trincao especially. When he gets on the ball, he looks to move forward at pace - just look at him on the 4 min mark in the game at The Emirates. He picks up the ball, turns and drives about 40 yards though the middle. Same for Pedro Goncales. These guys have the technical ability of 10s with the speed of wingers. Who have we got with that ability?

Off the ball movement is great.

Center backs are super comfortable on the ball.

A forward in Paulinha that can hold the fricking ball up and bring others into play.
 
Excuses. He's the manager and those are his players.

How did Wenger lead that Arsenal team to win the league in his first full season?

With the right tactics and man-management, the players Amorim inherited could easily of challenged for the top four. But, like most modern coaches; he's overcomplicating football.

All he had to do was adopt a 4231 bit with different personnel and tactics than ETH.

I still think he's capable of turning things around but pressures mounting

Well he inherited the best back 5 in the league, had Ian Wright, almost a full season before that, a pre season and signed Overmars, Petit, Anelka, Wreh and Grimaldi.

You're right. That's exactly the same situation Amorim is in. Just without the pre season, year of working with the players, inheritance of established top players and five signings.
 
That isn't the aim of football. It's what online fans think managers do because they believe managers are superhuman.

In the real world managers want and get their own players. To suit what they want.

The best managers don't join clubs and think "I'll max out this rubbish bunch of players. Get what I can out of them. Maybe I can stop a 28 year old keeper from making mistakes."

They reshape the squad in their image.
This is largely untrue outside of England. Managerial tenures don't last that long and managers can be fired, unlike players, therefore clubs usually prioritize their squad over their manager. Guardiola is often used as an example, but Bayern Munich did not reshape their squad in his image when they signed him.

A different issue is whether a squad should be improved in terms of its quality. Of course it should be, I don't think anybody disputes that.
 
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Wow this is 5-1-4 out of possession with Bruno trying to press the left back, the 5 Man defence is crazy at sporting one of the spare CB’s go into midfield, but MDL and Maguire both lack the pace to do that, Maguire is capable on the ball but needs a Varane type fast peak elite CB next to him, Jesus we are starting to realise how good Raphael was even though he was only fit 65% of the time?

I maintain most of our best performances under ETH where with Martinez and Varane’s partnership that definitely was top 4 at the time.

Gary Neville has taken a lot of stick for pointing the same thing out. You cant have your defensive midfielder, which in this system Bruno is supposed to be, running out to press the left back. Especially when you have Garnacho and Zirkzee who are meant to be playing as 10s who have little interest/ability in helping the midfield out.

There were much worst examples of this that i cant find the clips for.
 
Excuses. He's the manager and those are his players.

How did Wenger lead that Arsenal team to win the league in his first full season?

With the right tactics and man-management, the players Amorim inherited could easily of challenged for the top four. But, like most modern coaches; he's overcomplicating football.

All he had to do was adopt a 4231 bit with different personnel and tactics than ETH.

I still think he's capable of turning things around but pressures mounting

What a stupid comparison. Wenger took over a team that was already doing ok under Bruce Rioch and was 5th the season before. Only reason Rioch got sacked was because of a fall out with David Dein.

He started in October so had the majority of his first season in charge, taking over a team that won 5, drawn 2, lost 1 under Pat Rice.

His first team....
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He also had Dennis fricking Bergkamp and Anelka in his squad.

If Amorim had this kind of talent at his disposal, then maybe he could win a league.
 
That isn't the aim of football. It's what online fans think managers do because they believe managers are superhuman.

In the real world managers want and get their own players. To suit what they want.

The best managers don't join clubs and think "I'll max out this rubbish bunch of players. Get what I can out of them. Maybe I can stop a 28 year old keeper from making mistakes."

They reshape the squad in their image.
They really don't, and you'd think we'd have learned by now that following such a playbook is usually a recipe for disaster.
 
I'd say that if Amorim got top four next season he would have to go down as the best manager in Europe for that single season.

There's absolutely no chance it's happening, it made perfect sense for him to be linked with City, they have the firepower to accommodate drastic change in a short period of time ironing over the time required for a full transition. If Ruben took over the period that Erik did and had a 400 million to spend within 24 months he'd have a much greater chance at success.
The squad in 22/23 was worse than this one, yet Erik finished 3rd. I do think you are right though, it will be hard to finish fourth next season. Stranger things have happened though.
 
I wouldn't use the Spurs game as a case study for what is wrong with Amorim.

The squad was threadbare with injures and the midfield especially was a needs must scenario. I doubt a Bruno/Casemiro duo would have been used if he had at least one other senior MF fit.
True, but it's not like we were better against Palace, Leicester and Brighton.
 
433 or 4231 not 3421 that is worrying and there’s seems to be less connection between youth and full men’s team than ETH had with Nick Cox, apparently Ruben is very closed and insular, and really only confides in his own coaching team, yes he calls them up for training but he’s showing lots and lots of rookie traits as a Man United head coach right now.
Are the people above the manager as convinced as he is by his system i wonder.
 
Are the people above the manager as convinced as he is by his system i wonder.
Tactical principles are more important than the formation. For example a 4231 with a narrow front three (possibly inverted wingers) and attacking fullbacks can utilize the same players as a 3421. You only need one CB more and one AM less.
 
Yeah but the point is solid he spent an insane amount of money on shite he had no excuse
Oh absolutely - our managers have just steadily spend more and more as time has gone on. Think LVG was like £275m and that seemed ridiculous at the time.
 
We all love Ole, but what told you he could be an elite level manager?

ETH was worse though.

Let’s be honest, we simply haven’t gotten the right man yet since SAF left. Regardless of ‘structure’.
I never said he could. But honestly I would have taken borderline top 4 finishes with some good thrashings against minnows and occasionally challenging for cups for a few years to stabilize the squad and move forward. But we had to make perfect the enemy of good. We were elite for 20 years. We didn't need to go broke looking for that high again all the time. But that's capitalism for you.

Anyways that's gone now. and I'm kinda struggling to love the club and the game the same way since. Even if we are successful again (which I doubt for a while) unless the football philosophy is something related to or harkens back to the football philosophy that Manchester United was famous for, I doubt it'll feel as good again.

Other tops clubs that are footballing institutions like Ajax, Barca, Juventus, etc try to adhere to their core footballing philosophies in their manager hirings, even if they are not good or are not elite. But we keep getting our head turned by the latest hipster name in football and lurch from style to style and are left with a mishmash of a squad that can't play any style well.
 
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Please can you (or anyone) explain the meaning of the verb 'to ham and egg'?
"To ham and egg" means to do something in a basic, ordinary, or mediocre way, often implying a lack of skill or effort, similar to how a simple breakfast of ham and eggs is considered plain and straightforward

That's what the google AI tells me anyways. I've heard it used in the sports context of teams winning with an inferior squad and managing to get by.
 
Except we kept playing a flat back 5 today with a simple reverse ball taking out all 5 at once, not to mention our 2 man midfield today were like traffic cops guiding the Spurs players to our goal. We were lucky Spurs were missing a bunch of players and in bad form, otherwise it would have been a spanking .
Oh yeah we played poorly for sure. I disagree that we played with a flat back 5 though. You can look at the average positions and its much more of a back three. Also, there were plenty of times where Mazraoui stepped into midfield to form a 4231 shape when Bruno pressed high. The formation is just numbers on a page, the reality in game is often much more fluid than people on here make out.
 
Well he inherited the best back 5 in the league, had Ian Wright, almost a full season before that, a pre season and signed Overmars, Petit, Anelka, Wreh and Grimaldi.

You're right. That's exactly the same situation Amorim is in. Just without the pre season, year of working with the players, inheritance of established top players and five signings.

Yh but they weren't the ideal players for his preferred playing style but he adapted to them and the rest is history.

That's only one example; I could name countless more. Amorim is too stubborn. These are his players
 
Insulting another member
What a stupid comparison. Wenger took over a team that was already doing ok under Bruce Rioch and was 5th the season before. Only reason Rioch got sacked was because of a fall out with David Dein.

He started in October so had the majority of his first season in charge, taking over a team that won 5, drawn 2, lost 1 under Pat Rice.

His first team....
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He also had Dennis fricking Bergkamp and Anelka in his squad.

If Amorim had this kind of talent at his disposal, then maybe he could win a league.

Your stupid and clearly don't understand football.

The point was most of those players weren't his. He inherited a team that had previously finished 5th and 12 with a rife drinking/discipline problem. Yet he still turned it around and improved that entire squad.

That's only one example. It's happened numerous times in this league; look at Moyes now with Everton.

Nobody expects this United team to win the league. But the squad Amorim took over could've definitely challenged for top 4/6 imo. His tactics, rigidity and man-management have worsened the situation.
 
"To ham and egg" means to do something in a basic, ordinary, or mediocre way, often implying a lack of skill or effort, similar to how a simple breakfast of ham and eggs is considered plain and straightforward

That's what the google AI tells me anyways. I've heard it used in the sports context of teams winning with an inferior squad and managing to get by.

Ah, nice one, thanks pal. Weirdly, my google AI suggested it means to complement each other (ham and eggs go well together), and I just couldn't see how that would apply here!
 
Wow this is 5-1-4 out of possession with Bruno trying to press the left back, the 5 Man defence is crazy at sporting one of the spare CB’s go into midfield, but MDL and Maguire both lack the pace to do that, Maguire is capable on the ball but needs a Varane type fast peak elite CB next to him, Jesus we are starting to realise how good Raphael was even though he was only fit 65% of the time?

I maintain most of our best performances under ETH where with Martinez and Varane’s partnership that definitely was top 4 at the time.
It's pretty clear to me that Maz was supposed to jump into midfield in this scenario. It happened many times during the game. He's marking nobody and Spence(?) is unmarked in midfield. If he had done so we'd have been in a pretty solid 4231 shape.
 
Really hate the system, really not exciting. Dorgu seems decent but can't imagine him being a specialist wingback that will give us an attacking overload.
 
Things that have nothing to do with the system:

1. Onana flapping at crosses and producing a howler once every two games and putting our team behind
2. Fernandes' inability to make 5 yard passes + lack of discipline with the tasks of his position
3. Casemiro being slower than McConnell
4. Our strikers' inability to finish

These players were doing exactly the same things under EtH and stinking up the place in a 433. As for Dorgu, he's been good as wingback on both sides in the two (two!) games he has played. Talk about having patience.

People really need to learn how to watch football. Neville and co are polluting fan minds.
 
It's pretty clear to me that Maz was supposed to jump into midfield in this scenario. It happened many times during the game. He's marking nobody and Spence(?) is unmarked in midfield. If he had done so we'd have been in a pretty solid 4231 shape.

I see the point in Maz jumping in and out of midfield to make a midfield 3.

But that is only if the wingbacks are creating so much that you can justify losing one man in the middle to offset playing two in midfield. And that also requires the 10s to be coming back and getting behind the ball. Zirkzee was playing more like a second striker from the 442 days yesterday and Garnacho a left winger.

The "wingbacks", to my eyes are not doing anything that a regular premier league full back wouldn't be doing. They are not playing with any kind of freedom, safe in the knowledge that they have 3 at the back to cover for them.

So that leaves Maz looking rather confused at times as he doesnt know when to step up or drop. As a defender, it must be counter intuitive for him to step into midfield to pick up a man when he can see his right back and opposition runners going the other way.....

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I just think that when this system has not been fully figured out, while the players are not the right fit, when there is injury crisis and there is a massive lack of form, then it may be time to go back to basics.

For the last 20 games he has been driving the car while trying to change the tyres. Its not working so I feel it is time to do something where the players can just play and not be bogged down with too many tactical thoughts. We know they are not the smartest lot.

I thought it was great that he was sticking with his system at first because he could see who could and couldn't cut it, but i dont think anyone, including Amorim, thought it would be this bad. The PL is over, we wont get relegated (i dont think) but we need to find form in the hope of winning the Europa to back door into the CL. That would give him tens of millions more to spend.

And people say that if he changes now, then players will lose all respect. I think he loses more respect by losing more games.

With the injury crisis he has an excuse / reason to change to a different system to cover the midfield deficiencies.

Pick up 3421 again over the summer with an off season and hopefully some good acquisitions.
 
Oh yeah we played poorly for sure. I disagree that we played with a flat back 5 though. You can look at the average positions and its much more of a back three. Also, there were plenty of times where Mazraoui stepped into midfield to form a 4231 shape when Bruno pressed high. The formation is just numbers on a page, the reality in game is often much more fluid than people on here make out.
The problem was compounded by the central 3 being in a straight line, so when either of the 2 outside players dropped, it was really easy to take them all out, and when they did drop it left our midfield even more exposed. It was a bad day at the office.