Based on his performances at United it is not unlikely that Amorim will finish outside top 6-8 next season, unless we have a great transfer window. There's not much to suggest that Amorim is a top4 PL manager, based on what we know.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
Never argue with a person with 100,000 posts
It was quite a simple point about how bad decisions can compound until you have to take equally uncomfortable actions to fix them.
Klopp finished 8th in his first season averaging 1.60 point pr game. With this team:
—————Mignolet————
Clyne-Skrtel-Sakho-Moreno
———-Millner-Illaramendi——-
——-Coutinho - Firmino——-
—————Sturridge ———-
Is the current United squad more talented?
Already in season 2 they where in top 4.
Season 5-6 in top 2
Arteta finished 8th in his first two seasons.
What does the past show us? Do we give him time or is results just too bad? There must be a limit for how bad the team can perform over a long period of time.
We are 15th in the table averaging 1.16 or game with goal score at -7.
12 point from RELEGATION!
A manager needs time. But you can’t hit these numbers and keep your job?
—————Mignolet————
Clyne-Skrtel-Sakho-Moreno
———-Millner-Illaramendi——-
——-Coutinho - Firmino——-
—————Sturridge ———-
Is the current United squad more talented?
Already in season 2 they where in top 4.
Season 5-6 in top 2
Arteta finished 8th in his first two seasons.
What does the past show us? Do we give him time or is results just too bad? There must be a limit for how bad the team can perform over a long period of time.
We are 15th in the table averaging 1.16 or game with goal score at -7.
12 point from RELEGATION!
A manager needs time. But you can’t hit these numbers and keep your job?
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Yet all those teams squads have reliable goal scorers and goal creators, Palace have Wharton, Eze, Sarr, Mateta; Everton have Moyes who has experience and he’s told average players they are world beaters; West Ham have Bowen, Sola, Paquetta, Kudas; Brentford have Mbeumo, Noorgard and Wissa; and spurs as bad as they are have far more attacking talent than us which is why they’ve beat us 3 times already and they really are an awful team?
Never has a United squad been so badly mismanaged, never has a United attack been so woeful, Hojlund and Zirkzee have to play together as a two and Garnaucho needs to go back to the bench where’s he’s far more reliable. We need to pepper the opposition with crosses and cut backs and tell them both they need to create a partnership that scares opponents.
Amorim needs to tweak his system to a 352 or 3412 where either Bruno plays as a 10 and he uses Ugarte and Casemiro, Or Ugarte and Collyer as a mobile double pivot.
I would then have Jack Moorehouse and Chido with Garnaucho coming on from the bench as way to try and change the game or attack the opposition when they are tired.
Jack Fletcher, Biancheri and Victor Mussa could also help him right now, he needs to roll the dice but start playing a 3 man midfield to get a few wins to take the pressure off him, I say this not in malice but if he loses the next two games in the EPL, the clamour to sack him from the fans, media and board will be at an all time high?
Amorim has given supporters no reason to be optimistic.
He did well in Portugal but Ten Hag did well in the Eredivisie. The Premier League is a much tougher league.
I don’t expect a top four finish but I do expect improvement. Anyone who is hoping for a complete roster turnover this summer is delusional.
Never argue with a person with 100,000 posts
It was quite a simple point about how bad decisions can compound until you have to take equally uncomfortable actions to fix them.
Nice ad hominem.
I agree, there's no guarantees. I keep reiterating the same point that in the summer window 95% of the forum was in disarray over the managerial choices to replace Erik of which Amorim was also enlisted.
I don't think he's a bad manager in any sense but he's not what United need given the circumstances imposed due to the timing of his inclusion and INEOS's restrictions given the club's finances. Everything above suggests going for an experience manager even more so than a coach. At least until the financial uncertainty has subsided and there's the financial means to support a new playing philosophy.
Was just thinking considering Amorim didn't actually even want to join mid season, why doesn't he just adopt the system / formation he thinks is most capable of getting results?
Because sure he's effectively getting a 6 month headstart on implementing his 3-4-2-1, but if he had his way he wouldn't have got that before the start of the 25/26 season anyway?
Because sure he's effectively getting a 6 month headstart on implementing his 3-4-2-1, but if he had his way he wouldn't have got that before the start of the 25/26 season anyway?
I don't know what Klopp would want at United. But we do know what he got at Liverpool.
In 16/17, his first full season, he got Mane and Wijnaldum for decent money, and Matip, Klavan, and Karius for peanuts. With that, Liverpool finished on 4th place (which was probably the club's main target), with 76 points, scoring 78 goals, and with a goal difference of +36. Among the 11 most-used players in that campaign were Clyne, Lallana, Mignolet, Lovren, and Can. All of those were players considered 'not good enough for starting XI' in the team that would win the Champions League and the league just two/three years later. So he pretty much did have to settle for a couple of new players and work with the rest, and did a pretty good job at it. They played something that resembled "Klopp's football" and got relatively good results out of it.
I'd say that if Amorim got top four next season he would have to go down as the best manager in Europe for that single season.
There's absolutely no chance it's happening, it made perfect sense for him to be linked with City, they have the firepower to accommodate drastic change in a short period of time ironing over the time required for a full transition. If Ruben took over the period that Erik did and had a 400 million to spend within 24 months he'd have a much greater chance at success.
I have no coaching badges to my name so I'm no position to second-guess Ruben, but it has seemed to me that this season is all about survival, not building a foundation for his style of play. Better to scrape points now however one must, it seems to me, and then in the summer rebuild the squad and teach it how to play that brand of football.
Please can you (or anyone) explain the meaning of the verb 'to ham and egg'?
I’m not even sure with £400m that Amorim’s 3421 system would ever dominate in the EPL, his obsession with a 2 man midfield in the EPL will never work, he needs an absolute elite top 3 attack with 5 options like this ; Cunha, Osimhen, Dibbling, Amad and another young top English 10 like Morgan rogers or MGW and then and only then we would have the firepower to mount a top 5 Challenge in EPL?
But his teams in the EPL are far too easy to beat and I just don’t see a huge improvement even with a considerable investment.
Well let's see Amorim have his first full season with three new first XI players.
Hopefully improve and then change almost the entire first XI as Klopp did.
But Klopp or whoever, managers need players. It's not their job to get the best out of the players they inherit. Their job is to create the best team they can, however they can.
Yeah I'm still not seeing much of a plan on the clubs part. They still seem to be winging it.
Big Jim is supposed to be a life-long Utd fan, right?
25% ownership, aiming to get the rest.
Would it not make sense to run the club into the ground for a year or two to devalue it before acquiring - clean up the debt and books etc then dump a load of cash in.
Maybe this is what Amorim means when he says "there will be pain" - maybe it's planned.
25% ownership, aiming to get the rest.
Would it not make sense to run the club into the ground for a year or two to devalue it before acquiring - clean up the debt and books etc then dump a load of cash in.
Maybe this is what Amorim means when he says "there will be pain" - maybe it's planned.
If we could get all 3 and if all 3 work out and settle well into the club and team.
But I still don't see those 3 catapulting Unted 10 places up the table next season.
We put all our hopes on youngsters. Lack of seasoned, experienced striker is haunting us badly. We NEEDED a Cavani type of signing in January.
INEOS failed us, and they failed Amorim. That's the harsh truth.
Now people look at this academy kid, expecting him to be saviour. And when Amorim plays him and he is bad for 2 games, he'll be labeled as "not good enough".
INEOS failed us, and they failed Amorim. That's the harsh truth.
Now people look at this academy kid, expecting him to be saviour. And when Amorim plays him and he is bad for 2 games, he'll be labeled as "not good enough".
Wtf!
Wtf!
That isn't the aim of football. It's what online fans think managers do because they believe managers are superhuman.
In the real world managers want and get their own players. To suit what they want.
The best managers don't join clubs and think "I'll max out this rubbish bunch of players. Get what I can out of them. Maybe I can stop a 28 year old keeper from making mistakes."
They reshape the squad in their image.
What system does the youth teams play?
Our squad isn't this bad but the attack is dragging the whole team down by missing chances at critical junctures of several matches that have turned out to be losses. By just adding a reliable striker who can score 10 to 15 goals a season the whole outlook for this team changes. Whether he will get the chance to add one is now up in the air.
What is key, regardless of what happens with Amorim, is r to recognise the physical, mental and technical limitations of this squad. Yes in a good season, with an attacker on form it can fluke a CL qualification or a successful cup run but that's about it. It needs to be overhauled, bring in players that can compete on one on one's, that are prepared to work their socks off and then when we are on the right track then add a couple of World class player to lift our level from CL qualifier to title challenger.
The reality of our situation is that we need 8 to 10 new players. The capitulation we see now will reemerge at some point in the future and derail another manager. This is why I was pushing for Amorim to use youth from his first day as he won't get enough money to rebuild the squad but if he had invested game time in youth I am sure a few would have taken their chances and reduced the number of new players required.
And then when we have the issues next season implementing the 3421, everyone says “he’s been here 6 months and still hasn’t got us playing good football” etc. He’s very much in a lose-lose situation right now, but I think only one course of action makes sense to him (and maybe the club) in the long term ie keep working on the system he wants to use in the long run.
Are we taking away the wingbacks though? Because our "wingbacks" are playing no different than full backs would.
There isnt much difference here in the heatmap of the two left backs yesterday....
The big issue for me with these wingbacks is that it only takes a run from an opposition wide forward to push them back. It is seen here. Son makes a run and Dalot goes back with him....
That leaves us outnumbered in midfield.
I saw Son making that run over and over and it was obviously a tactic to push Dalot back and thus create an overload in midfield that was already struggling with 3 players that you wouldn't really want in there.
I agree. The team does not look fit. So why have two midfielders, one who is shot and not played a full game for months, playing up against 3 in the center of midfield?
I thought the lesson was learned after the Newcastle midfield 3 dominated Casemiro and Eriksen.
Little bit confused here...
So they are not good, but they are not shit. So they fall in between somewhere? I guess that is why we are 15th.
No, but i agree. We have players that have some good attributes, but it is no good being a midfielder that is press resistant but not mobile, unless that player is so good that he changes games on his own. And even them, he needs legs around him. That worked when Milan had Guttuso and Seadorf doing to running for Pirlo.
I agree. They are not a smart bunch. Most are low IQ players with a pretty low technical level. Which is why i think Amorm needs to be keeping it very basic for them.
Having Maz step into midfield at times, then drop back into the back 4 - it is too much. And maybe not just for Maz, but for others around him like maguire, who im sure prefers to have a CB right beside him and not stepping into midfield.
We conceded one to Brighton because MDL did the same thing and got a ball played over the top.
Whilst I think it's generally pointless comparing different teams and managers, the broader point is that these players are not suddenly all terrible. Klopp is a good example of someone who put a specific style in place and it was all over the shop that first season. What they had though was goals, there would be crap games, bad losses (they lost to so many crap teams, Palace beat them at Anfield, Soton beat them, Watford beat them 3-0, Swansea turned them over, Sunderland took points of them but the goals just steadily built and they were hitting 3 or 4 goals ever other game it seemed like by the end. That must have been so easy to then believe in for the fans, because if you are hitting 63 goals (more than Brentan did) with that team it's clear how transfers can improve you.
Ole had an amazing one.
That’s all true but there’s a deeper problem that the club needs to sort like the squad being one of the highest paid in Europe whilst delivering next to nothing. We can’t carry on with players like Rashford on 300k a week delivering 6 goals and having a face like a smacked arse every week
It’s taking one step back to hopefully move us forward with a few good signings in the transfer market. We’re on the road to nowhere carrying on with this lot and Amorim knows it
We know money is tight but if we move on Rashford, Antony, Lindelof, Eriksen, Sancho and 1 or 2 others there will be a budget to do a bit of business in the summer
Is this a wind up?
This. It's important to remember that every manager, who has had success in recent times in this league, has done that by throwing out the underperformers and the poor attitudes that clogged the dressing rooms.
Problem is that our issues are ten years in the making, our floor is too low and we have bluffers that stay here for their contract, content to sit it out whilst not playing just to get their money. That environment is not conducive for performances.
The issues are compounded by the disasterclass presided over by Arnold, Murtough and Ten Hag. The £600m wasted on rubbish would sure be handy right now. We basically need to replace almost every player Ten Hag signed whilst we are still paying for them and no one will pay us any fee for a lot of them.
Yes but I think the point the poster is making is Manager A had the same issues to contend with, arguably more issues given the off field drama he had to endure.
I think my broader worry now we've had a decent amount of games under Amorim is that all PL teams have zero issues setting up to face the 343 setup, and the fact we try and play quite slow possession football seems to compound the issue, they kind of sit off but pressure it when it goes wide and then, when we run out of patience, we either go long or try and build through the middle and that is where we really struggle.
His lack of adaptability, or rather unwillingness to adapt is what will cost him his job unfortunately.
That graphic posted above by @gaffs is quite telling. Absolutely criminal and naive tactical set up which will get you decimated in the PL, and so its been the case!
Such a shame, I really wanted it to work out
That graphic posted above by @gaffs is quite telling. Absolutely criminal and naive tactical set up which will get you decimated in the PL, and so its been the case!
Such a shame, I really wanted it to work out
Klopp was a top-class motivator, I think that is the main difference. Amorim speaks a lot about having to sell his “idea” Klopp never had to sell anything to the Liverpool players, they rallied behind him from the start. Ruud, much like Ole, had the personality to lead United, which is why we had a brief period of good results and more importantly performances before he was replaced. We’re yet to see if Amorim can galvanise a squad and to get them to fight for him, if I’m honest his candid interviews probably alienate the squad rather than motivating them.
The issue is that even if we have £200m to spend, and we don't, it's no where near enough to do what we need to do in the market and do it swiftly lest the new signings will be swallowed up by the negativity that surrounds the club when we hit a rough patch of form.
It's why it was imperative for Amorim to utilise the youth set up and get a few who are ready to step up. I am certain he could get two or three to add to Collyer. This will help accelerate the rebuild, in the event that he gets say four players he will effectively have 7 or 8 new faces to add to Yoro, Maz, De Ligt, Amad and Dorgu.
Call me crazy but I think you can get a couple to rotate in for the two 10 positions and one in CM. Ugarte and Collyer are serviceable at DM so that's a starting point. Get a new CCB, CM, Striker and Keeper on the market and you can compete. But as it is they won't be enough if we are adding them to this dross.
It's not his fault that he was picked at a time where we have barely any money (which was exhausted by Ten Hag). I think if we had enough money like City did with Guardiola, then Amorim could have worked. But at a time where we have no money, how do we get someone playing a completely different style that requires his own players. Amorim, even if he was the right person in another scenario is set up for failure. Mainly Berrada and INEOS to blame here. Only way he can work at this point is by adapting from his stubborn and rigid system.
PersonaIly, I think we should have kept van Nistelrooy as an interim for the season to keep things ticking along.
His lack of adaptability, or rather unwillingness to adapt is what will cost him his job unfortunately.
That graphic posted above by @gaffs is quite telling. Absolutely criminal and naive tactical set up which will get you decimated in the PL, and so its been the case!
Such a shame, I really wanted it to work out
That is just one of many...
So much Space for Spurs. Maz doent know to hold in the line or come out to his man.
Time and again, the bodies are just in the wrong area of the field.
My guess is that because he told them he didn’t want to sign mid-season and they told him he has to join now or never, he agreed a compromise where he’s not considered a results driven interim manager this season and it’s about introducing his ideas and building for the long term
Fingers crossed. It's the hope that kills ya.
The key is to buy a couple of decent strikers and providers. Our attack is the most impotent I have ever seen in my 62 years of watching United. That isn't down to Amorim, that's on the Glazers, INEOS and our past recruitment personnel. It must be so demoralising for our players to know that if we concede one goal, it's game over, as our attack is so toothless. No wonder they are playing safety first football, in a vain attempt not to concede a goal.
Yeah my guess as well. He knows that he's safe from bad results and has probably been directed to be as forward thinking as possible and use the season to evaluate the team/system fit.