He really won’t. Ipswich and Leicester aren’t that close to us. There is no way Arsenal game will be a must win regardless of the next two.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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He really won’t. Ipswich and Leicester aren’t that close to us. There is no way Arsenal game will be a must win regardless of the next two.
The lows were lower with ETH but last season you could always feel that we can beat the bottoms teams, unlike this year. We were also able to string 3-4 wins in row, which this year seems impossible.
You think we are in a better position now? All these promises of how 3421 is the holy gral. Next season. ETH was not a solid manager.
This may be contraversial, but I genuinely don't think we are bad as an overall squad. Not a league winning team, but not bad either. We have two key issues which significantly impacts how we play and affects how the rest of the team looks. The first is our midfield being poor on and off the ball. This makes it hard for our 2 no.10's to get into the game, and forces us to horseshoe the ball around the back 3. What constantly happens as a result of this is that since we insist on playing out from the back, we are stuck in our own half, since our midfield doesn't allow for us move the ball up the pitch. I don't think Yoro, De Ligt, Maguire, Martinez or Mazraoui are bad on the ball, however they struggle to find someone to pass to. Nothing sticks in midfield, so unless our wing backs drop down the pitch, forcing into a back 5 shape, our only hope is to hoof the ball. Our strikers struggle as a result, because despite not being target men, we're expecting them to consistently win duels. Its not surprise that in 22/23, when we could consistently play 2 decent midfielders in Casemiro and Eriksen, that we looked okay. They both got older, and we fell to oblivion.
The second issue is the formation. This doesn't mean that we should change it, but its clearly a struggle for our current team to adapt to, especially given the weaknesses in midfield. Bruno can't play in the 2 and neither can Kobbie. Ugarte can, but he's not really someone whose gonna help with ball progression. In a 4231 or 433, where he had additional support in midfield, he would look fantastic, but in this formation, his lack of ball progression doesn't help the team. Our wing backs would be good full backs, but the ask for being the sole form of width both in attack and defence is something our current players aren't used to. I personally believe that the team would look far better if we had gotten a manager who brought a typical formation, it might have covered some of our cracks. However, we were never going to win the league anyway, so taking time to grasp the formation and seeing who can adapt to it and who can't will really help us moving forward.
I see this formation a bit like Brighton's under De Zerbi. Imagine if the ball consistently got stuck in Brighton's midfield. Due to them inviting pressure through their style, they would consistently be turning over possession in their half. I think this is where we are. But if we fix the midfield issue and the rest of the team adapts to the formation, we would be able to pass through teams and attack consistently, leading to successful football. My question for Amorim is whether we can adapt this system to achieve the results we want until at least the summer. Can we, for example, adapt to a 352, where our midfield gets the extra support it needs for ball progression?
We've already seen that Zirkzee is actually a 10, that Mainoo can't function as well as an 8 in a 2 man midfield, that Amad can be a superstar, that Mazraoui can function a right or left centre back in this system
The second issue is the formation. This doesn't mean that we should change it, but its clearly a struggle for our current team to adapt to, especially given the weaknesses in midfield. Bruno can't play in the 2 and neither can Kobbie. Ugarte can, but he's not really someone whose gonna help with ball progression. In a 4231 or 433, where he had additional support in midfield, he would look fantastic, but in this formation, his lack of ball progression doesn't help the team. Our wing backs would be good full backs, but the ask for being the sole form of width both in attack and defence is something our current players aren't used to. I personally believe that the team would look far better if we had gotten a manager who brought a typical formation, it might have covered some of our cracks. However, we were never going to win the league anyway, so taking time to grasp the formation and seeing who can adapt to it and who can't will really help us moving forward.
I see this formation a bit like Brighton's under De Zerbi. Imagine if the ball consistently got stuck in Brighton's midfield. Due to them inviting pressure through their style, they would consistently be turning over possession in their half. I think this is where we are. But if we fix the midfield issue and the rest of the team adapts to the formation, we would be able to pass through teams and attack consistently, leading to successful football. My question for Amorim is whether we can adapt this system to achieve the results we want until at least the summer. Can we, for example, adapt to a 352, where our midfield gets the extra support it needs for ball progression?
We've already seen that Zirkzee is actually a 10, that Mainoo can't function as well as an 8 in a 2 man midfield, that Amad can be a superstar, that Mazraoui can function a right or left centre back in this system
No he wasn’t. He was abysmal and is large part of the reason why we are so poor now as he left our squad in a horrible, horrible state. Let’s not rewrite history just because Amorim might be even more inept.
The analogy, as I said, is nothing to do with competency, because comparing a doctor to a football manager, with regard assessing competency, would be a bad comparison.
A doctor spends a decade+ as a student. They have countless exams, assessments and on the job training to complete. All of this is designed to take the subjectivity out of their competency.
The other clear difference is that a medical procedure can be directly examined immediately in the aftermath to determine the competency of the surgeon / doctor - you don't need to wait 3-months or 6-months until after heart surgery to determine whether the surgeon did a good or bad job.
In contrast, besides the UEFA exams, there's nothing that prevents basically anybody becoming a football manager.
Their work is also highly, highly subjective. For example, even this far down the line, there's still a debate about how well (or not well) Jose Mourinho did at United.
In terms of performance and the idea of giving someone 'time', then I do agree that time has to be earnt, to a degree.
However, I really do think that United, in our current state, are a unique case. There have been very few large organisations globally, nevermind football clubs, who have been run as badly as United over the last decade or so.
There has to be some consideration for the distinction between things that benefit us in the short term vs things that benefit us in the long term.
I would say your point about giving Amorim more money should be moot...because if the club is now operating properly, it doesn't matter who's sat in the dugout...the signings should fit a profile that will still be viable for the next manager*. So we lose nothing really by giving Amorim time. The board work to identify players to improve the squad - Amorim is simply their coach.
*contrary to popular belief, that doesn't mean "must have played in a 3-4-3"
This thread is mostly the same 4-5 people spinning the 'sack Amorim because Ten Hag was better' drivel in 101 different ways, there's an update from them almost every 5 minutes 
. Hellbent on peddling the narrative that Amorim is the worst manager ever and our players are top 4 material. This is exactly the short-sighted ignorance that has landed us as a club and a fanbase where we are today. Instant gratification or bust. Preferring to paper over the cracks and fluke an 8th place so we can pretend we're still part of the elite. Don't even need rival WUMs when our own fanbase screws themselves so well.
. Hellbent on peddling the narrative that Amorim is the worst manager ever and our players are top 4 material. This is exactly the short-sighted ignorance that has landed us as a club and a fanbase where we are today. Instant gratification or bust. Preferring to paper over the cracks and fluke an 8th place so we can pretend we're still part of the elite. Don't even need rival WUMs when our own fanbase screws themselves so well.Exactly. We could’ve just stuck with Ten Hag and sacked him at the end of the season. There was really no indication that Amorim was lined up for another job. This rushed decision falls directly on Berrada, which puts his job at risk if results don’t immediately improve.
And that's why it was a bad analogy. You addressed a point that relies on competency with an analogy that has nothing to do with competency.
Why do people keep talking about our squad as if the same group of players has been here the whole time?
Fans really underestimate impact which one or two players can have in squad.
Put world class striker and top midfielder in this squad and it is completely different tune.
City, perfect maschine, dropped massively because they lost Rodri and Haaland's drop in form.
Remove Salah and Van Dijk from Liverpool and they are not anywhere near the top.
Remove Isak and Bruno from Newcastle and they are in bottom part of the table.
Brentford without Mbuemo and Wissa is in relegation battle.
And so on......
Even without those players, those teams know how to attack and string two passes together.
Injuries are an issue that is compounded by playing style. Amorim's tactics have been difficult for the first choice players to adapt to. As we push deeper into the squad this problem is more evident than ever.
Hate to say it, but he looks like a man who's thrown in the towel for this season. End of season can't come soon enough for him, I feel like he's waiting it out to get his own players in. Going through the motions.
Im not sure he is going to get that time. People can have whatever opionion they want. But we all know he will get the chop if things dont improve. Utds can tjust keep losing games like we have so far.
Id be very pleasantly surprised if he is still manager next season
I don't know but it's a bit annoying. There are only 6 players that joined the first team before summer 2022. Bruno, Lindelof, Shaw, Dalot, Heaton and Maguire. You could add Garnacho and make it 7.
Same. It’s not a style that thrills.
That’s an excellent way to put it!
I jsut checked, I totally forgot that he played for the first team in 20/21.
There's no denying, that the situation we are in right now is very very bad.
I'm reading lots of posts and seeing lots of videos about people calling for him to adapt and to change his system and i have no doubt that yes, results would improve slightly.... BUT only in the short term. The minute Amorim moves from his principals and philosophies, he is dead and will be walking the same sorry mile the ETH did.
As bad as it is right now i am glad he is not budging. It sends a message to the entitled players we have. Players that have downed tools for our previous 3 managers when THEY decide the don't like the man calling the shots, that they either adapt, or share Rashford's taxi out of here.
In fact, Rashford is an awesome example of the situation we are in. Whatever you say about him being lazy etc, he can be a matchwinner and would do a lot more as a CF than Hojlund and Zirkzee currently are. And it would have been so easy for Amorim to play him and ignore his shortcomings, I imagine he was very very tempted too. Again.... Short term, we would be much better for it but at a huge expense to our, and Amorim's long term goals.
We just have to suffer through this period whilst Amorim, and the board assess the players we currently have. Do they have the right mentality? Can they or have they adapted to the system? whilst also identifying players we can bring in which don't inflict to much damage to our budget that prevents us from strengthening elsewhere.
Its ugly, and its a mess, but we are currently paying the price for 12 years of short term thinking. Reverting back to that now, as a club and for Amorim as a manager, would be disastrous.
I am fully onboard the Amorim train. We will get there with him, i feel it. Results have not been good, but he cant do anything about Garnacho's miss yesterday and poor finishing in the 2nd half. Garnacho's goal goes in, as it should have done and Zirkzee's header, or Dalot pulls the ball back properly for a tap in, we win 2-1 and we are praising the performance rather than being, in some cases, overly critical. Everyone just needs to calm down, accept where we are right now and after this season, things can only get better.
We might finish top of the bottom half next season
I'm reading lots of posts and seeing lots of videos about people calling for him to adapt and to change his system and i have no doubt that yes, results would improve slightly.... BUT only in the short term. The minute Amorim moves from his principals and philosophies, he is dead and will be walking the same sorry mile the ETH did.
As bad as it is right now i am glad he is not budging. It sends a message to the entitled players we have. Players that have downed tools for our previous 3 managers when THEY decide the don't like the man calling the shots, that they either adapt, or share Rashford's taxi out of here.
In fact, Rashford is an awesome example of the situation we are in. Whatever you say about him being lazy etc, he can be a matchwinner and would do a lot more as a CF than Hojlund and Zirkzee currently are. And it would have been so easy for Amorim to play him and ignore his shortcomings, I imagine he was very very tempted too. Again.... Short term, we would be much better for it but at a huge expense to our, and Amorim's long term goals.
We just have to suffer through this period whilst Amorim, and the board assess the players we currently have. Do they have the right mentality? Can they or have they adapted to the system? whilst also identifying players we can bring in which don't inflict to much damage to our budget that prevents us from strengthening elsewhere.
Its ugly, and its a mess, but we are currently paying the price for 12 years of short term thinking. Reverting back to that now, as a club and for Amorim as a manager, would be disastrous.
I am fully onboard the Amorim train. We will get there with him, i feel it. Results have not been good, but he cant do anything about Garnacho's miss yesterday and poor finishing in the 2nd half. Garnacho's goal goes in, as it should have done and Zirkzee's header, or Dalot pulls the ball back properly for a tap in, we win 2-1 and we are praising the performance rather than being, in some cases, overly critical. Everyone just needs to calm down, accept where we are right now and after this season, things can only get better.
We might finish top of the bottom half next season
If Ipswich beats Spurs and we lose to Everton and then Ipswich beats us they'd be within 6 points of us
Your mistake is assuming we are better than what we are showing. Last season we were expected to finish 14th statistically, so we’re right on course. I know it’s hard to say it’s instant gratification when we’ve been in this mess for 10 years, or on our way. But eventually a manager will come along who is the right man, but they might not get the chance because the supporters have zero patience. Which is fair enough in the grand scheme, but it’s self defeating in the shorter term.
Like you said, this isn’t Amorims fault. But if the fans have their way, he’ll be the one to pay the price. Is that fair? What if he is a superb coach simply being held back by the players, if this season and these circumstances the best way to assess him? I think no. And I think any coach that canes in now will face the same issue, until the day we’ve recruited well over a long period and suddenly we have something to work with. But the fans need to balance patience and the pain with assessing things fairly.
Pretty dreadful to watch this team. We are getting butchered in the centre of the field and there has been no attempts to fix it. Defense is way too back and between Defense & attacking players there is way too much space for opponent team.
Question to ask, is he the right guy to carry us forward? Lets say we buy many players next season, do we expect to compete.
My judgement on our past managers is based on their performance in bad games and I had been skeptical of Ole, ETH because their performance in bad games is really poor. Unfortunately, Amorim seems to be the same. Its abysmal to watch our team and we win sometimes only based on luck which was same with Ole,ETH.
Question to ask, is he the right guy to carry us forward? Lets say we buy many players next season, do we expect to compete.
My judgement on our past managers is based on their performance in bad games and I had been skeptical of Ole, ETH because their performance in bad games is really poor. Unfortunately, Amorim seems to be the same. Its abysmal to watch our team and we win sometimes only based on luck which was same with Ole,ETH.
So: the previous manager (we'll call him Manager A) finished 7 places higher with largely the same squad, but also won 2 trophies. Almost unanimous that he need to go. Manager B comes in, does drastically worse with largely the same squad.
In Manager A's case, we finished 8th and are shitty because it's his fault.
In Manager B's case, we are 15th and are shitty because it's the players' fault.
That's the disconnect.
Now compare time frames, money spent and position they started from.
Not really. Never during Ten haag’s reign did he look like he was in control. We basically never scored more than 4 goals in a game under him. We scored a record low number of goals for a team finishing third. Big on you if you prefer two cups over scoring 80 goals in a season and setting the record for the most consecutive 3 goal wins.
Ole also got to a EL final with much more style than mourinho did and I consider that EL run more successful and entertaining than Jose 1-0 Fellaini powered snooze fest even if we did end up winning the cup.
I guess somepeople actually enjoy watching the games instead of enjoying the box scores and point scoring with their mates.
This exactly. The man has inherited all the mess built up in at least the past 3 years and people are giving him blame for everything.
On top of what you describe for the previous games, people have short memories and forget how this team was already on downward trend the past two seasons. How many times was United lucky last and the previous season, especially the last season when xG metric was something like 18th in the league.
It was actually a long time ago that I read on here that our players are top 4 material.This thread is mostly the same 4-5 people spinning the 'sack Amorim because Ten Hag was better' drivel in 101 different ways, there's an update from them almost every 5 minutes
Amorim will get at least until May to prove himself, but it will not be easy to support him after that if this continues. I see no progress which makes me lose faith in him by the week. He has shown almost nothing at United.
He was wrongfully scapegoated for the same issue that plague us today. The difference is his could ham and egg his way through good performances from the likes of Lingard and McFred instead of stubbornly leading us with his “progressive style” into a relegation battle.
Maybe this should tell you that his bad performances are something we would aspire to right now. And he was not rightfully sacked. Until our fans can accept that we will continue to be in this cycle indefinitely regardless of who we bring in and however much money we spend. Arteta finished 8th 2 years in a row before he got Arsenal to be competitive. But our fans shit the bed and backstabbed the best thing that happened to this club post Ferguson because he wasn’t a hipster enough name.
Amorim said himself that in order to get more time to work with the team he needs to win games. He needs to show that the team is developing. Theoretically, talking the talk is easy. Walking the walk is the ultimate indicator when it comes to coaching in football. Make no mistake, if Ruben does not convince the Board that he is the one who can improve the team, they will fire him.
Except that we had 5 managers in those 10 years. It’s not patience If you keep sacking managers every time they finish outside the top 4 is it?
What this club did to Ole was a level of self sabotage of enormous proportions. After running the club like a drunken sailor we managed to fluke into a manager that truly understood the job and got two top 4 finishes in a row, with a genuine connection to the fans to boot, and then we forced an ageing Ronaldo onto him and sacked him when that didn’t work, only to get rid of Ronaldo the next year too.
Ever since then I’ve known there’s no saving this club. The only possible path forward is to get relegated and hopefully make a fresh comeback in the league in a few years.
PS: the fan base hasn’t been as enthusiastic as it was when we were singing “Ole’s at the wheel” and literally bouncing into every stadium. I miss those days as a fan. Even if we lost, I enjoyed supporting this club. It brought back the romance of football to a dull, cynical game and I fear it’s never coming back - so I apologize if I seem bitter
Tactics are incredibly important. Formation isn’t tactics. You can play 3 at the back and be counter-attacking or possession, high press or park the bus.
Formation does not equal tactics… that’s my point.
Why do all managers go out and buy a bunch of new players?
Like Klopp did at Liverpool. Bought almost a new XI. Why did he do that rather than just get the best out of his existing squad?
Maybe that is so… I just remember him being a tad too conservative at times. Maybe those early years he was too aggressive.
Because some of them were here the whole this time?
I agree with your breakdown and I don’t think we should sack Amorim. I don’t know if he’ll be a good coach (I was pretty certain when he signed). However, I trust him a lot more when it comes to who to get out and being ruthless. For that alone I think it would be really poor to sack him before he’s given the opportunity to really shape the squad.
That said, he needs to figure out a way to get some results between now and the end of the season.
To the original point I’ve stayed away from the media for most of this season simply because I just can’t stomach any analysis after a Manchester United loss and also because it’s been crystal clear they farm us for clicks so maybe I’m coming at this from my unique perspective.
This is not the late 90s anymore. You have to give the manager proper tools to work with. We have strikers who can’t score in a brothel. We don’t have the number 10s to play behind the striker. We don’t have wingers who can attack.
If you bring a manager who has a well defined playing style then at least give him the players he needs. Don’t get such managers if you want to cry about money.
The first thing is that a manager can get the best out of an existing squad, but that might not be enough for the club to achieve its ultimate targets. Hence they improve the squad. No contradiction there.
The second thing is that all squads have some degree of year-by-year turnover, because players age, lose quality, choose to leave, etc. So any manager who is at a club over a long period of time will see a changed squad and XI. For example, the starting lineup for Liverpool in the 2016 EL final was: Mignolet, Clyne, Lovren, Toure, Moreno, Milner, Can, Lallana, Firmino, Coutinho, Sturridge. They lost some to quality, but Coutinho left to join Barcelona, Sturridge suffered injuries most of his career and was no longer reliable, Toure retired in 2017, Milner was already in his mid-30s when Liverpool played the CL final.
We were losing by a single goal, our attackers were dead on their feet. Bringing in Chido for 15 minutes would not permanently scar him.
He could also have sacrificed a defender to bring Chido on, thereby leaving the same misfiring attackers out there to nick the goal he clearly thought was coming.
Swapping out Casemiro with someone who can run might have helped as well.
Agreed. I didn't see any signs that a comeback was on, pretty much resigned to the defeat when the 70th minute came and went without changes.
There have to be some kind of baseline standards in the contract. I would think finishing the same as the previous manager, or maybe one place lower, would be acceptable if it was all part of the process that a couple of new signings would then complete.
At a push, finishing 10th.
Not 15th.
Hands up as another who gets annoyed with that narrative "These players are throwing another manager under the bus" when the player turnover has been outrageous.