Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[Adnan]

To control the build up play we need a team not just Scholes and Keane. To control defensive transition at much higher level, we don’t just need CBs who can play high line and Roy Keane. We need a team that doesn’t give possession cheaply. In summary, we can have van Dijk, Saliba, Gabriel, Keane, and Scholes, but it becomes not effective and will eventually putting us into risk of getting attack from counter if we have Hojlund and Zirkzee who constantly keep giving the possession away cheaply.

While I agree the big issue is midfield and defense, our attackers like Hojlund and Zirkzee who constantly giving away the possession are also a big issue. The whole team doesn’t know how to keep possession.

To control the build up phase you need the first two lines to progress the ball vertically at a high level and hence the players you mention are absolutely crucial to how not only the build up functions but also how they control or contain the transition when the high press gets bypassed. If we had Van Dijk, Saliba, Keane and Scholes we'd be very close to having a team that could compete for the title. Arsenal and Liverpool haven't had world centre forwards but as a team they can and have scored a lot of goals because they have the ability to sacrifice defensive stability for goals.

And for any team to effectively press high and play a more expansive brand of football, the CBs and deeper midfielders in tandem need to provide a high level of vertical passing threat in the build up phase and also thwart the counter in a high-line. This is what we fail to do and collectively the first two lines dictate how the game will flow. Even someone like Thomas Partey (Arsenal) would instantly be our best central midfielder because he provides a good level of vertical passing threat and is physically and athletically strong enough to eat up ground quickly which in tandem with Arsenal's CBs helps them control the defensive transition. Liverpool is another example I can use.

Your forwards won't be able to maintain possession for long if the aforementioned problems persist.

 

[RedRocket9908]

If we had Iraola instead of Amorim you’d all be slating him and asking why we didn’t take the punt on the fantastic young coach from Sporting.

Is this really true though when 78% of the voters in here didnt want Amorim to be our next manager after ETH was sacked.

 

[Fracture90]

The whole team doesn’t know how to keep possession.

Surely, that can't possibly be coaching issue...

 

[shabin_d_great]

Is this really true though when 78% of the voters in here didnt want Amorim to be our next manager after ETH was sacked.

I remember a post about Amorim during ETH second season here. Distinct opinion from some one who watched Amorim team was that he was too defensive for United.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Why is playing 3 CBs a good idea in general? Do we have elite CBs with recovery pace and skills on the ball? No. Can we afford to buy one or two? Maybe one.

Amorim's 3 CB system is most likely set up to fail and he seems willing to die on that hill.

 

[Paul778]

My fear is if he can't make any improvements in 2/3 of a season, albeit with issues as you have highlighted, is this not just another ETH scenario? ETH spent so long dealing with the problems from Ole, who himself had to deal with issues from Mou and so on...I think everyone can agree we shouldn't be dropping from 8th (especially given most of our defence was out at varying times last year) to our new depths, so there needs to be something small now to cling onto for next season in my opinion

The problem was ETH signings were not physical enough. To be a great player in the EPL you really need to have a lot of stamina with at least one of strength or pace in abundance (preferably both). At United specifically they also need a large slice of mental fortitude and belief in their own ability to cope with the weight of the shirt and attention. SAF used to want to look in the players eyes and see if he thought the fight was there.

This is the hurdle rate before even considering their technical ability, and where they fit in the team.

If you look at these prerequisites how many of them fail before we've even looked at their role on the field. Ole said it during his time here, that United should never be outrun and outfought on the pitch. Yet we still continued to buy a lot of weak, slow players (compared to the rest of the EPL)

It is damning the articles last week about the state of our data department at Carrington. It seems like previously we were still making decisions based on eye test/scout reports or worse still approaches from agents looking for an easy mark - with data pretty much an afterthought. I get the impression that Vivell and Wilcox are on top of this and we will only sanction players with a much better core profile going forward but I guess only time will tell.

 

[NK86]

Nobody is saying give him all the time in the world and a brand new 11 but the guy has only been here a few months and signed one young left back. He's also lost his best player to a season ending injury and loaned out three attacking players. Amorim might be the right manager or he might be the wrong one. We do not know either way yet. By this November/December we will have a pretty good idea.

By next November/December we might have wasted yet another season because we refused to see and believe what’s in front of us for the last 2-3 months.

Madrid are ruthless and they don’t think twice dumping a manager who has won them major honours. Now, it’s very difficult to reach their levels overnight, but we have to move on from giving managers time based on nothing but the hype they came with. If he is not cutting it by the end of the season and if our form does not improve dramatically, then keeping him on next season will basically be like an ETH situation where we are flogging a dead horse in the hope that a miracle will make it gallop.

 

[Gavinb33]

This year was already fecked thanks to ETH. Unless the difference between 9th and 14th, which will end up being 3-6 points is so traumatic to fans that they want the guy sacked before he's even been given a fair chance.

We hired a manager who only plays one formation and people want him sacked before he can even implement his formation properly. It's madness.

I don't want him sacked I want him to show something that makes me think next season will be better, in all my years supporting United this is the 1st manager where every game I expect to lose before KO

 

[Zumbi]

How big would his pay off be? 10-15 mil? How relevant is that amount in rebuilding the squad? You don't buy one leg of a decent player with that amount in today's market, maybe a youngster, let's not find another excuse for him, please. The fact that the board didn't set up a minimum league expectation or league position is absolutely idiotic.

And it's not sacking him after few months, it's sacking after a horrendous few months, the worst we had in over 30 years.
The no1 reason I believe he is not the right man, is not necessarily the fact that we play like shite and results are shite, but the fact he uses the same system and even said he will never change, this stubbornness is the most worrying thing. All top managers have adapted and changed based on the surrounding environment, the players they've had, the club, the context, etc.

What he did at Sporting is great, but Man Utd is another level and few managers can make it at this level.

Given the state of our finances, 10-15 million will have a material impact on our spending this summer. We bought Mazraoui for that and he instantly became one of the most technically sound players in our entire squad. You’re also paying off his coaching team, not just him.

He has been explicit from the very start about installing his specific system, and he has also been explicit about the fact that it will involve lots of growing pains before it yields progress. Not only would Ineos have been well aware of that when deciding to hire him, but the success of that specific system in turning around Sporting’s fortunes would have been one of the key reasons he was hired. It may not work in the end, but it seems ludicrous to take the plunge on him when they did and then get cold feet so soon without letting him even have one proper transfer window.

I agree, his results have been super disappointing so far, but the state of our squad in terms of talent, balance and mentality have been the worst we’ve had in decades, and none of that was his making. The one thing that gives me encouragement is the fact that he seems to be priotising the exact player qualities that we desperately need for a proper squad rebuild, and that have been neglected over the past few years: pace, physicality and workrate. If we go through a shit period whilst that rebuild takes place then so be it - this is the exact sort of open heart surgery Rangnick told us we needed years ago.

 

[Adnan]

I think the players are either :
1. Not confident enough to play vertical passes, or
2. Not good enough to execute the pass.

What we see from Everton is that they are on a winning streak, their confidence is high and it was evident in how they execute their passes. And while they not always make them, they have enough physicality and intensity to win the ball back, which also added to their confidence.

I think we have the players to execute these passes, maybe not as good as Keane and Scholes, but I think much better than what they're showing right now. But they're scared to take that risk, and that was compounded by the fact they don't have the attributes to winning the ball back

I don't know how feasible this is but perhaps Amorim could compromise a bit to at least get these players confidence up so they can execute these passes.

I think we should expect a better level of performance from the team and you could be correct about certain players lacking confidence. But I just feel even if we get the vertical passing going from the first two lines it won't take us up to the level we should be at because the current players (especially in midfield) just don't have the ability in-possession to propel us to a level where we can challenge the top teams on a consistent basis playing a brand of football that is dominant. And then we also have the issue which accompanies teams who play more expansive and that is how do we contain or control the opposition's quick counters when the space opens up.

Last summer I said we need 2 CBs and two central midfielders who fit a particular criteria to raise the level physically, athletically and technically. And we didn't sign a single midfielder who fit that criteria and the only CB that potentially does fit that criteria is Leny Yoro but I think de Ligt can also work potentially. So right now I think two midfielders and one CB with the attributes required would make a big difference to the team.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Thanks for answering, usually when I ask people don't reply or deflect the answer. I respect the opinion even if I don't agree.
I guess the next question is simply, let's say we sign a few players but they are all Dorgu types (which I think we should be doing for what it is worth) i.e. not immediately great/senior players, is it a free hit again or then will you have a higher bar?

My fear is if he can't make any improvements in 2/3 of a season, albeit with issues as you have highlighted, is this not just another ETH scenario? ETH spent so long dealing with the problems from Ole, who himself had to deal with issues from Mou and so on...I think everyone can agree we shouldn't be dropping from 8th (especially given most of our defence was out at varying times last year) to our new depths, so there needs to be something small now to cling onto for next season in my opinion.

His signings will be key, and he needs the majority of the starting 11 to buy in next season. This season I'm giving him a pass party because I have zero faith in a lot of these loser players but next season if he keeps starting them and relying on them then it's fully on him. Of course I don't expect the finished product but i think with what he's working with a top 4 challenge is the minimum we should expect.

The difference with ETH is he abandoned his Ajax style of play and basically started playing Ole ball. We've seen what we get with playing a formation to get the best out of the likes of Maguire and Bruno and it's nowhere good. With Amorim it might be better or worse but at least he's sticking to his principles.

 

[reelworld]

I think we should expect a better level of performance from the team and you could be correct about certain players lacking confidence. But I just feel even if we get the vertical passing going from the first two lines it won't take us up to the level we should be at because the current players (especially in midfield) just don't have the ability in-possession to propel us to a level where we can challenge the top teams on a consistent basis playing a brand of football that is dominant. And then we also have the issue which accompanies teams who play more expansive and that is how do we contain or control the opposition's quick counters when the space opens up.

Last summer I said we need 2 CBs and two central midfielders who fit a particular criteria to raise the level physically, athletically and technically. And we didn't sign a single midfielder who fit that criteria and the only CB that potentially does fit that criteria is Leny Yoro but I think de Ligt can also work potentially. So right now I think two midfielders and one CB with the attributes required would make a big difference to the team.

Yeah I agree about the midfield. However my concern is just for the rest of the season. We won't reach a level to compete at the top level, but maybe we can improve just not to be 15th place bad

 

[croadyman]

He looked like he had just woken up after a huge bender when appearing for the post match presser.

That's what managing this club does to you

 

[Adnan]

Yeah I agree about the midfield. However my concern is just for the rest of the season. We won't reach a level to compete at the top level, but maybe we can improve just not to be 15th place bad

I think it can only get better until the end of the season. Surely we can't get any worse.

I think with me it's easy to see where the issues with this team are. It all depends on Amorim, Vivell and the Sporting director, Wilcox to identify the problems and fill in the gaps that will make the system of play more fluid. Because if a team struggles to build the play adequately from the back and then also struggles to contain transitions, then your system of play won't work as far as playing a more proactive brand of football. And it's why we do well as the underdog but struggle to impose our own game on the opposition. The pace, power and technical ability has to be of a high level in the central zones from where the CBs and deeper midfielders occupy positions.

 

[renatosanches85]

What exactly has Iraola done that’s so lauded? He’s a good coach I agree, but it took him ages to get going at Bournemouth and was nearly sacked after taking 10 games to get a win.

If we had Iraola instead of Amorim you’d all be slating him and asking why we didn’t take the punt on the fantastic young coach from Sporting.

Opinions are like assholes, we all have one. That’s my opinion, it was my opinion before we gave ten Hag an extension, it was my opinion when we sacked ten Hag, it was my opinion when we appointed Amorim and it’s my opinion now. We are all entitled to our opinions and viewpoints, even if it jars with yours. You don’t get to belittle it and tell me what I think. I’ll tell you what Iraola has done, he got a mid table team in Spain playing exciting and competitive football with bang average players. He came to England, and made a lower table team, who were favourites for relegation play exciting, front foot and competitive football, to the point now where they are in the running for European places. He has improved average players and overseen the transfer in of young players who he has developed on a relative shoe string (Huisen and Semenyo examples of this). We are a midtabke team with average players, it seems a good fit in my opinion.

 

[croadyman]

Can the next boss please, please be one who's achieved something in one of Europe's top leagues...(not that Amorim is on the way out yet, but I don't expect him to be here this time next year)

OK then so who is that manager then and please be realistic about it as well not suggestions like Alonso/Zidane/Simeone.

 

[Desert Eagle]

I don't want him sacked I want him to show something that makes me think next season will be better, in all my years supporting United this is the 1st manager where every game I expect to lose before KO

I'm not there yet. I was there with Ole pretty early and ETH after a while but I think Amorim will be able to identify the problems and fix them. The problem is his formation locks him into a certain system and we don't have so many players that would make it functioning. That's why he gets a pass this season for me.

By next November/December we might have wasted yet another season because we refused to see and believe what’s in front of us for the last 2-3 months.

Madrid are ruthless and they don’t think twice dumping a manager who has won them major honours. Now, it’s very difficult to reach their levels overnight, but we have to move on from giving managers time based on nothing but the hype they came with. If he is not cutting it by the end of the season and if our form does not improve dramatically, then keeping him on next season will basically be like an ETH situation where we are flogging a dead horse in the hope that a miracle will make it gallop.

We might have but we are not Madrid. We don't have a single world class player. We have not won the league or CL in a decade which is why the idea that we can keep sacking managers till we hit some hypothetical Fergie or Busby style lottery ludicrous. ETH actually did pretty decent in his first full season iirc. But eventually it was clear he was maxed out. We haven't even gotten to see Amorim ball yet and people are already certain he's not good enough. If he wins the Europa or FA cup does that count as dramatic improvement? Or are you only judging him on league form which like I said we have nothing to play for.

 

[Jev]

Why is playing 3 CBs a good idea in general? Do we have elite CBs with recovery pace and skills on the ball? No. Can we afford to buy one or two? Maybe one.

Amorim's 3 CB system is most likely set up to fail and he seems willing to die on that hill.

It is fundamentally a bad use of the space of the pitch. There’s absolutely no reason to have three static defenders behind the ball while in possession, and when defending, especially in a low-confidence side like ours, there’s too many bodies in the same spaces, creating confusion and hesitancy, and giving everyone an opportunity to evade responsibility. That’s why a three-defender system is only a good idea if you have tactically intelligent, flexible player who will take up other positions fluidly and fill out vacant space, like a CB operating as a DM in possession. We don’t have enough of those players to make it work, therefore we should never be playing this system.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The problem was ETH signings were not physical enough. To be a great player in the EPL you really need to have a lot of stamina with at least one of strength or pace in abundance (preferably both). At United specifically they also need a large slice of mental fortitude and belief in their own ability to cope with the weight of the shirt and attention. SAF used to want to look in the players eyes and see if he thought the fight was there.

This is the hurdle rate before even considering their technical ability, and where they fit in the team.

If you look at these prerequisites how many of them fail before we've even looked at their role on the field. Ole said it during his time here, that United should never be outrun and outfought on the pitch. Yet we still continued to buy a lot of weak, slow players (compared to the rest of the EPL)

It is damning the articles last week about the state of our data department at Carrington. It seems like previously we were still making decisions based on eye test/scout reports or worse still approaches from agents looking for an easy mark - with data pretty much an afterthought. I get the impression that Vivell and Wilcox are on top of this and we will only sanction players with a much better core profile going forward but I guess only time will tell.

I don't buy into all the players just being weak, not good enough etc. All of them have strengths and weaknesses, it's about utilising them. There are many good players in the league who aren’t that fast or strong but are just super fit and tenacious. Agree re the mental fortitude, watching us now I think pressure/anxiety is our main issue - we seem to wilt as soon as trouble arises and then suddenly, a moment from Bruno for example, and everyone is alive and believes again. We're very volatile from that standpoint and it weas the same even as far back as Ole when we'd often come from behind, same with ETH we'd start super slow, that part I feel is very much on the coaching team re getting the players mind's right.

Re data I'm not as worried given we will just outsource. Really there are very few clubs who seem to solely rely on their own proprietary data (I think it is just Brighton and Bretford) and to give you an idea of the scale, Star Lizard is worth more than Brighton fc itself, it just so happens Bloom came from betting into football, so the platform was already there. We don't really have a huge amount of data for Ineos yet but they seem to not be paying as ludicrous fees at least, we will know a in few windows if they are better/worse or just as hit and miss.

 

[Moriarty]

What we see from Everton is that they are on a winning streak, their confidence is high and it was evident in how they execute their passes. And while they not always make them, they have enough physicality and intensity to win the ball back, which also added to their confidence.

A good point. Moyes has clearly increased the morale of that team and those players who couldn't buy a goal are suddenly looking like a team.

 

[tomaldinho1]

His signings will be key, and he needs the majority of the starting 11 to buy in next season. This season I'm giving him a pass party because I have zero faith in a lot of these loser players but next season if he keeps starting them and relying on them then it's fully on him. Of course I don't expect the finished product but i think with what he's working with a top 4 challenge is the minimum we should expect.

The difference with ETH is he abandoned his Ajax style of play and basically started playing Ole ball. We've seen what we get with playing a formation to get the best out of the likes of Maguire and Bruno and it's nowhere good. With Amorim it might be better or worse but at least he's sticking to his principles.

Oh he will be playing many of the same players, unless Ineos are laying the biggest smokescreen for a summer bonanza window ever (or we win the EL and can spend big). Top 4 seems a world away right now, especially with younger players.

Not sure on ETH, I don't think he was ever really a hardcore Ajax disciple. He played Ole ball first season (cup + 3rd place) so immediately showed he could do that style but then whatever his plan was simply did not work when he tried to move to the 2 x 8's. I respect him for trying, as I respect Amorim for sticking to what he is doing (as mental as it seems) and it is also better for us fans in my opinion, I think you very quickly can get a an idea of who is a good coach and who is struggling. Because I have no doubt Amorim could also setup 4231 and we'd be decent enough, much higher up the table, but it would lead nowhere.

 

[Drainy]

It is fundamentally a bad use of the space of the pitch. There’s absolutely no reason to have three static defenders behind the ball while in possession, and when defending, especially in a low-confidence side like ours, there’s too many bodies in the same spaces, creating confusion and hesitancy, and giving everyone an opportunity to evade responsibility. That’s why a three-defender system is only a good idea if you have tactically intelligent, flexible player who will take up other positions fluidly and fill out vacant space, like a CB operating as a DM in possession. We don’t have enough of those players to make it work, therefore we should never be playing this system.

Given that one of the centrebacks is a converted fullback, and many other teams use their fullbacks as one of the three at the back in possession, or as inverted in midfield it's bigger in people's minds than it is in reality.

 

[NK86]

I'm not there yet. I was there with Ole pretty early and ETH after a while but I think Amorim will be able to identify the problems and fix them. The problem is his formation locks him into a certain system and we don't have so many players that would make it functioning. That's why he gets a pass this season for me.

We might have but we are not Madrid. We don't have a single world class player. We have not won the league or CL in a decade which is why the idea that we can keep sacking managers till we hit some hypothetical Fergie or Busby style lottery ludicrous. ETH actually did pretty decent in his first full season iirc. But eventually it was clear he was maxed out. We haven't even gotten to see Amorim ball yet and people are already certain he's not good enough. If he wins the Europa or FA cup does that count as dramatic improvement? Or are you only judging him on league form which like I said we have nothing to play for.

If we see how his style of play actually looks like and if it shows that we can control games and create chances while not getting dominated by every team we play against, then it would show clear progress and he should then be given time.

Currently we are dogshite in almost every facet of our play and all our players are looking worse than they actually are. Surely that’s not a good sign to back a manager. If he cannot make this team play better then I am not sure he deserves time and money.

 

[JE-365]

To control the build up phase you need the first two lines to progress the ball vertically at a high level and hence the players you mention are absolutely crucial to how not only the build up functions but also how they control or contain the transition when the high press gets bypassed. If we had Van Dijk, Saliba, Keane and Scholes we'd be very close to having a team that could compete for the title. Arsenal and Liverpool haven't had world centre forwards but as a team they can and have scored a lot of goals because they have the ability to sacrifice defensive stability for goals.

And for any team to effectively press high and play a more expansive brand of football, the CBs and deeper midfielders in tandem need to provide a high level of vertical passing threat in the build up phase and also thwart the counter in a high-line. This is what we fail to do and collectively the first two lines dictate how the game will flow. Even someone like Thomas Partey (Arsenal) would instantly be our best central midfielder because he provides a good level of vertical passing threat and is physically and athletically strong enough to eat up ground quickly which in tandem with Arsenal's CBs helps them control the defensive transition. Liverpool is another example I can use.

Your forwards won't be able to maintain possession for long if the aforementioned problems persist.

Forwards won’t be able to maintain possession for long but forwards should know how to hold the ball and make simple passes, that’s the minimum. When forwards cannot even do that then all the works in build up phase and progressing the ball from the back/midfield to Hojlund and Zirkzee will go to waste only for them to give possession away cheaply. Resulting no shot means no threat but only making us vulnerable from counter.

Tell me a team who is very close to compete for title when they have two forwards who cannot pass the ball and cannot hold the ball.

 

[LDUred]

He has to be more flexible.

De Ligt cannot play as a LCB. He's just not quick enough and he's on his wrong foot. Mazraoui is fine at RCB, but Maguire and De Ligt together are disastrous, as we clearly saw yesterday.

Just stop playing three centre backs. The only conceivable way this works is if Martinez were available to play as the left centre back, but he's out for the season, so just change things to suit what we have.

 

[saik]

I still don't see what Amorim is trying to do with his formation. Another game where we're creating nothing—less than 0.5xG, and yet the opposition has over 2xG. We're incredibly fortunate to have gotten that draw. It’s all down to individual brilliance rather than anything resembling a cohesive system.

At least under Erik ten Hag, you could see what he was trying to do. High press forcing opponents into mistakes, full-backs inverting into midfield—there was a plan, even if it didn't work out.

Now, with Amorim, there’s no clarity. Ugarte’s being pushed to the right wing, players are constantly isolated with no passing options (I’ve seen this repeatedly, especially against Everton, where our players are swarmed by 3-4 opponents with no one nearby to help), Dalot plays as a wing-back but always inverts, Garnacho still plays as a left winger not as a left sided no.10 and Bruno is being moved around everywhere with no clear role.

We are a few months in and there’s been no sign of growth or any development in the system yet that would make me believe things will improve, even with new signings. It’s a complete and utter mess on the pitch.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

He has to be more flexible.

De Ligt cannot play as a LCB. He's just not quick enough and he's on his wrong foot. Mazraoui is fine at RCB, but Maguire and De Ligt together are disastrous, as we clearly saw yesterday.

Just stop playing three centre backs. The only conceivable way this works is if Martinez were available to play as the left centre back, but he's out for the season, so just change things to suit what we have.

As we are desperate to win the Europa Leauge for European football next year, I’d suggest we at least play 4 at the back in this competition and ‘practice’ 3 at the back in the PL.

 

[RedRocket9908]

His signings will be key, and he needs the majority of the starting 11 to buy in next season. This season I'm giving him a pass party because I have zero faith in a lot of these loser players but next season if he keeps starting them and relying on them then it's fully on him.

He has got no choice but to rely on the players he has got as the club is skint so doesnt have the £300m+ its going to require to get the players he'll need in the summer and since he is unable to get the current players to play his way I think the best option is to bring in someone who can so we have the best possible chance of winning a cup (preferably the Europa) and qualifying for Europe.

 

[SATA]

It seems that there’s something on with him? He went straight down the tunnel after the game ended and didn’t go on the pitch to applaud the away fans, or at least that’s what i saw on tv

 

[Woodzy]

It seems that there’s something on with him? He went straight down the tunnel after the game ended and didn’t go on the pitch to applaud the away fans, or at least that’s what i saw on tv

It's fairly obvious he's raging, and can't believe how bad we actually are.

Unfortunately for him, it's his job to fix it.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

It's fairly obvious he's raging, and can't believe how bad we actually are.

Unfortunately for him, it's his job to fix it.

It is, he has to somehow find a way to turn this around, it would be good if the club could start with some positive PR for a change instead of the doom and gloom narrative we are pushing.

Instead of saying we’re going to ‘suffer’ and need a full summer to get them playing well in this formation, we need to start hearing about how we’re working to get improvements this season. We still have a lot to play for. If we can win a trophy it would at least give us a bright spot to work with.

We need a concerted effort to start to turn the atmosphere around by the board, manger, and senior players. We’ll not change anything if we keep peddling defeat is acceptable, which we are currently.

 

[Adnan]

Forwards won’t be able to maintain possession for long but forwards should know how to hold the ball and make simple passes, that’s the minimum. When forwards cannot even do that then all the works in build up phase and progressing the ball from the back/midfield to Hojlund and Zirkzee will go to waste only for them to give possession away cheaply. Resulting no shot means no threat but only making us vulnerable from counter.

Tell me a team who is very close to compete for title when they have two forwards who cannot pass the ball and cannot hold the ball.

Passing the ball isn't Højlund's issue and he completes more passes than Haaland, Osimhen and many other more established strikers in comparison. You talk about his hold up play when his hold up play was something that had to be developed when we bought him. He was a young striker who thrived by receiving progressive passes from the back at Atalanta in a system that was geared up to sacrifice defensive stability for goals where Gasperini's strategy was to commit a high volume of players in the final third and Højlund attacked the half spaces. We don't see that at United and unsurprisingly to me the difference between how Atalanta approached the game and how we approach the game is dictated by the players who occupy the first two lines. Atalanta in comparison were at the time a far better team at pressing the ball from the back and into midfield and backed up the high press by having a commendable rest defense where the CBs and deeper midfielders controlled the defensive transition in a higher line at a better level than we could.

The question you should be asking is that why do our forwards have as few touches in the opponent's box in comparison to our rivals who seem to be camped in the opponent's half. And the answer to that is that those teams have a very strong build up phase from deeper and can also extinguish the counter threat in a higher line which enables their forwards to press with efficiency from the front.

Højlund may or may not be the answer long term but without correcting the deficiencies in the system it won't allow any striker to develop or perform to his potential ability.

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

He has to be more flexible.

De Ligt cannot play as a LCB. He's just not quick enough and he's on his wrong foot. Mazraoui is fine at RCB, but Maguire and De Ligt together are disastrous, as we clearly saw yesterday.

Just stop playing three centre backs. The only conceivable way this works is if Martinez were available to play as the left centre back, but he's out for the season, so just change things to suit what we have.

I’m no tactician but surely to play 3 CB’s means they have to be front footed good footballers on the ball who can comfortably step up into midfield and play the ball about. To me, bar potentially Yoro, we have ‘old fashioned’ defensive centre halves who like a battle in a back 4. Totally not suited to a more attack minded back 3.

 

[Blood Mage]

Why is playing 3 CBs a good idea in general? Do we have elite CBs with recovery pace and skills on the ball? No. Can we afford to buy one or two? Maybe one.

Amorim's 3 CB system is most likely set up to fail and he seems willing to die on that hill.

This is the biggest thing, you need all three CBs to be reasonably athletic and good on the ball for this system to work. De Ligt, Maguire and Lindelof are pitifully slow and average on the ball and Yoro is too raw.

 

[Marwood]

This is the biggest thing, you need all three CBs to be reasonably athletic and good on the ball for this system to work. De Ligt, Maguire and Lindelof are pitifully slow and average on the ball and Yoro is too raw.

But that's what you want and need from your CB's whatever the formation right? If you want to win the biggest tournaments anyway.

No top team is targeting CB's who are poor athletes and poor on the ball.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Last season's finish has also been addressed dozens of times in this thread, if you think we were good value for that 8th place then, again, I can't help you.

The issue with this argument is that United performed even better the previous season, finished 3rd. Even xG based arguments would see them placed 5th-6th or so.

So if we judge squad quality by league position, we have to conclude that the squad went to shit in summer of 2023, which is hard to justify by the actual incoming / outgoing transfers.

 

[Danimancer]

this thread is...... challenging to read.

Love the informed discussions going on here at times, where I see posters showing good understanding of the game, tactics, leadership, overall management, and actually back up their opinions with well reasoned arguments. I have found myself moving my opinion on the chap a few times due to this.

But man, the great majority of posts here are of the type "my opinion is the only truth" - panic angst for anything and anyone voicing an informed opposing opinion.

My take??? IF it was said from the very beginning that there will be pain, that this season is going to be culling and chopping and changing, then we need to see it out. We need to be brave enough to see it through. Let's not go back to short term gain and long term resignation of the last seasons or ten. At this time we cannot speak of careful evolution, it got to be revolution or mutation to get us back. Hard tough medicine. We do not have a divine right to simply improve without suffering all the pains that come with true change.

Yes, we are United, we got history. Let's not get stuck in our history, time to make a new story! Take the growing pain on, smile, knowing it is the right thing to do. Let's not continue to panic change, not going to work.

But hey, this is just my opinion.

 

[Marwood]

The issue with this argument is that United performed even better the previous season, finished 3rd. Even xG based arguments would see them placed 5th-6th or so.

So if we judge squad quality by league position, we have to conclude that the squad went to shit in summer of 2023, which is hard to justify by the actual incoming / outgoing transfers.

It doesn't have to be the entire squad that went to shit.

The forward line stopping scoring goals is enough to cause a dramatic drop.

 

[RuudTom83]

What are the players doing all week?

They bring so little to matchdays, struggle to do even the most basic of things, professional footballers shouldn't need to be instructed down to every minute detail.

In the first half yesterday the level of football IQ on display was zero! no manager in the world can have a god like grip over his players...sometimes you just gotta just hope your 200k a week CB can jump and head the ball on his own free will and intuition.

 

[hobbers]

The issue with this argument is that United performed even better the previous season, finished 3rd. Even xG based arguments would see them placed 5th-6th or so.

So if we judge squad quality by league position, we have to conclude that the squad went to shit in summer of 2023, which is hard to justify by the actual incoming / outgoing transfers.

No it isn't ...????

We signed Onana, Mount and Hojlund. 3 of the 5 horror ETH signings, along with Casemiro and Antony, that best explain why we are in the shit. Meanwhile our better players in 22/23 got injured (Martinez, Shaw, Martial), older and injured (Casemiro, Eriksen) or gave up on football (Rashford, Sancho). How is that difficult to justify for you?