Not every, that is clear hyperbole.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
Not every, that is clear hyperbole.
I forgot to put "doesn't", so you are right. I meant to say that it doesn't answer the question about Amorim being competent or not.
This season started with a reset: new game plan or a highly reworked plan. It was abandoned fairly quickly for a new reset with Amorim. He‘s doing a lot worse.
If we can finish 8th last season with the injuries we had, we should not be in 15th now with an improved squad.
No more nonsense: it hasn‘t been good enough even taken into account the various excuses.
Amorim has to get them to perform or end up in the bin.
If we can finish 8th last season with the injuries we had, we should not be in 15th now with an improved squad.
No more nonsense: it hasn‘t been good enough even taken into account the various excuses.
Amorim has to get them to perform or end up in the bin.
ETH was hilariously lucky to finish that high though, and our general performance level as a team was similar to the current one.
Any big club with league results like this is going to be highlighted.
Even if we wanted we can't afford to sack another manager, and it would literally change nothing.
By virtue of not being half injured up until now? By signing some more players? How is it not better?
Amorim imo is scared that Maguire and Delight would get caught if there are spaces in the back. He needs better profiles.
Fair enough. But with the way some players are performing, i cant imagine anyone doing anything worse. 20-30 min sub appearance would tell a lot about their character. In my opinion, Amorim has not given the thought of judging young players as he has bit too much to handle at the moment. Think quality is there in some of our young players to step up and help us
Its hopeless situation now. Getting to know if any academy player is worth banking on for next season would at least do some good for us next season
If Amorim believes not a single reserve or academy player is even good enough for a small cameo role then questions needs to be asked of how we are running our academy as well.
Without watching the video, a concern of mine is that our defenders play too deep, probably because they're shit scared that they will get beaten in a footrace if a ball is played in behind them to a pacey striker. As a result of them dropping back, it forces our midfield to drop back, and then the attack follows. The pressing from the front is non-existent. It means that as a team we spend more time in our half than in the opponent's, since we also can't keep hold of the ball when we get it and give it back quickly. It's only through the likes of Amad that we actually play our way out of trouble and work the ball down the other end.
I don't think it is personally, but a lot of fans think our summer transfers were by and large good signings. I don't agree, but it's still a common sentiment. By that logic, this squad is an improvement on last season's.
Ah fair enough. Then you can ignore my post!
That is a fine analogy.
But if the current situation were an entirely predictable consequence", I would expect you to have predicted it. You did the opposite, here is what you said just three months ago on this very thread:
So the analogy doesn't hold up!
The situation is more like if a guy shows up to the doctor with a bad cough. The doctor prescribes some medicine and says "take this for 7 days and your cough should clear." Eight days later the guy shows up to the doctor again with a worse cough, his skin is yellowing, and he has some weird pustules, says "doctor I'm not feeling so hot" and the doctor calls him a crybaby.
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It's even worse when you go into context
City- we were losing 0-1 in the 86th minute until they committed a dumb penalty and Bruno pulled it to 1-1 and then Amad scored the winner
Southampton- we were losing 0-1 in the 81st minute and then Amad carried us to victory with a 12 minute hat-trick
Fulham- Took a world class deflection from a Martinez shot and Collyer heading a ball that was going into the net if he wasn't there
Only the Everton win was a comfortable win, up 2-0 at HT and then 3-0 before people were back in their seats for the 2nd half.
Going even further
The goal vs Ipswich was Rashford, assisted by Amad
The penalty vs City was setup by Amad being fouled and the winning goal was Amad (assisted by Martinez)
The goals vs Liverpool were Martinez and Amad
The goals vs Southampton was Amad
The goal vs Fulham was Martinez
2 of the goals vs Everton were Rashford and 2 assists were Amad
As for the other goals scored in those 14 matches
2 Bruno penalties
Zirkzee 2 goals vs Everton (1 assisted by Amad)
Hojlund vs Forest
Bruno vs Forest (assisted by Amad)
So out of the 16 goals scored 13 goals had involvement from 3 players that are unavailable the rest of the season
DIRE
I'm not even sure what the problem is anymore.
I'm not judging Amorim too harshly yet - he's obviously come in at a bad moment, he's set his strategy out and will stick with it whilst encountering the short term pain, hopefully for the long term benefit.
If it was Klopp/Pep we had hired and we were going through this run of form, you'd stick with it because you know eventually his philosophy will get across, he will get players more suited to his system and the results will follow after a certain amount of time/new additions/full pre-season etc.
The danger is if we have backed the wrong horse in Amorim. It'll be constant for the next 2-3 years about how we are seeing signs of his system starting to work, how he needs more signings, how it's more short term pain for long term gain, and before you know it 2-3 years has passed and we are still in the same position with a massive amount of money spent.
It happened with Ten Hag, even when we were playing poorly under him (the majority of the time), there was fans protecting him and saying we can see he's trying to put a system in place and it will take time, then saying he needs a few more windows to get his signings, and then saying it will change with injuries but none of those things happened and ultimately the style of football never came to fruition, the signings he made to complete the open heart surgery were terrible and the grace he was given in the summer due to injuries looked a poor move within 1-2 months of the season.
I'm not judging Amorim too harshly yet - he's obviously come in at a bad moment, he's set his strategy out and will stick with it whilst encountering the short term pain, hopefully for the long term benefit.
If it was Klopp/Pep we had hired and we were going through this run of form, you'd stick with it because you know eventually his philosophy will get across, he will get players more suited to his system and the results will follow after a certain amount of time/new additions/full pre-season etc.
The danger is if we have backed the wrong horse in Amorim. It'll be constant for the next 2-3 years about how we are seeing signs of his system starting to work, how he needs more signings, how it's more short term pain for long term gain, and before you know it 2-3 years has passed and we are still in the same position with a massive amount of money spent.
It happened with Ten Hag, even when we were playing poorly under him (the majority of the time), there was fans protecting him and saying we can see he's trying to put a system in place and it will take time, then saying he needs a few more windows to get his signings, and then saying it will change with injuries but none of those things happened and ultimately the style of football never came to fruition, the signings he made to complete the open heart surgery were terrible and the grace he was given in the summer due to injuries looked a poor move within 1-2 months of the season.
Rubbish response
This players are all good players and I’m just trying to suggest that the problem is not just the players but the Glazers and Ineos.
I don’t understand your comment(found their level) when we are currently 15th in the table and all these players are playing for Teams that are currently above us or doing better than us.
Also I’ve seen a lot of West Ham,Forest and Napoli games as I like to follow Utd players and Scott, Elanga and AWB are all having great seasons and on current form will get into this current united team.
Maybe you work for the Glazer or Ineos and that’s why you don’t want the criticism and anger of the fans directed at them
We can’t keep swapping managers and players and hoping the problem goes away.
He literally said it himself when he joined and asked to come in summer. But that doesn’t fit your agenda?
Rashford forced Amorim to freeze him out. Amorim did not know these players would not be replaced. You are being dishonest here.
Non-entities? We were paying their wages and as such they were part of club and a burden. But also if still at club could be used. Now we have 11 fit players and lost 11 players since summer. Most in areas we are short. You blame Amorim….ill be realistic and blame Ineos as your implication is that another manager will do well in short, medium and long term in these circumstances.
Short term it will not work. We needs to see in the medium/long term as was evidently plan and expectations laid out by Amorim.
McT would have been a good player to have in the squad, but didn't we have to sell him to get money in as he was an academy graduate. Doubt he is regretting going as doing well at Napoli. We are regretting it more.
I don't know how much you can read into a relegation stint in the PL, aside from knowing the league a little better, versus managing Ajax/Sporting who, despite weaker leagues, do get CL football every year. I think both were/are the right types to have hired (far more logical in my mind than Moyes, LVG, Mou, Ole that is for sure) but that doesn't mean they will work. It also means fans shouldn't be so desperate for the next guy in to be some kind of saviour - we should treat all appointments with a certain about of pessimism and expect to see something from them to then build trust.
Can any of the stattos or tactical experts on here share any figures about where things might actually be improving, without it being immediately obvious? Im being serious, I genuinely need to see some signs of light. Anything out there?
Alderaan
We did replace his goals with Amad goals and we also did with Zirkzee, McTominay wasn't a prolific nor consistent goalscorer. Even Zirkzee could match McTominay's best season in the league and he is one goal shy from the second best season.
I am not particularly fond of a back 3 system as it’s not what I grew up associating with United. The football right now is genuinely the worst we have seen since SAF and is quite depressing.
However,
1) I am quite confident that there is no silver bullet that will get us from where we are to where we want to be. When I read all the vitriol and negativity against the manager, I feel somewhere there is a delusional belief that another managerial change will transform us. The previous manager had to go, not just because of his tactical capability, but because he oversaw and accelerated the degradation of the squad. Which brings me to,
2) The squad quality and mix is the worst it has been. It’s sad to see how we have literally blown up 400m in the last 2 years. We have on one hand, overpaid senior players who do not perform, and on the other, young players with heavy price tags, some with high potential, but who are yet to develop to contribute consistently. Our GK is average, midfield non existent and we might genuinely have one of the poorest attacking lineups in the league.
3) On top of that, our players are not performing to their potential. One of the main contributors to that, IMO, is culture. It is such an insidious thing but anyone who has worked in a large organisations knows how crippling a bad culture can be. It is incredibly hard to change and takes a lot of time, tough decisions, unified effort to transform.
4) We are broke! We won’t be able to spend like we did before without huge capital injection from the owners, which seems unlikely. People are interpreting this as Amorim will have to work with this squad and therefore he needs to adapt to their will than the other way round. We have already seen the outcome of that approach, multiple managers before him serve as an example. You don’t win anything meaningful with that. Playing a deep backline, trying to hit teams on counters & long balls is not the recipe for building a winning team. So, he wants the players to get out of their comfort zone and play more proactively. I feel right now we are in a kind of silent standoff between the players and the manager, each hoping the other party will relent. If the management supports him and backs him, he might finally be able to break this resistance.
One thing he needs to do is to rely on youth to create competition for some of the senior players.
Overall, the narrative is being framed very narrowly to make it all about the 3-4-2-1 system. It helps the media as it simplifies a complicated issue and makes it easier to sell the narrative. The fans are buying into it as it gives them a false comfort - if only we change the system everything will be alright.
I am not saying Amorim will be successful or is in the right. However, the problems facing the club & the team are quite complex and need a nuanced discussion.
However,
1) I am quite confident that there is no silver bullet that will get us from where we are to where we want to be. When I read all the vitriol and negativity against the manager, I feel somewhere there is a delusional belief that another managerial change will transform us. The previous manager had to go, not just because of his tactical capability, but because he oversaw and accelerated the degradation of the squad. Which brings me to,
2) The squad quality and mix is the worst it has been. It’s sad to see how we have literally blown up 400m in the last 2 years. We have on one hand, overpaid senior players who do not perform, and on the other, young players with heavy price tags, some with high potential, but who are yet to develop to contribute consistently. Our GK is average, midfield non existent and we might genuinely have one of the poorest attacking lineups in the league.
3) On top of that, our players are not performing to their potential. One of the main contributors to that, IMO, is culture. It is such an insidious thing but anyone who has worked in a large organisations knows how crippling a bad culture can be. It is incredibly hard to change and takes a lot of time, tough decisions, unified effort to transform.
4) We are broke! We won’t be able to spend like we did before without huge capital injection from the owners, which seems unlikely. People are interpreting this as Amorim will have to work with this squad and therefore he needs to adapt to their will than the other way round. We have already seen the outcome of that approach, multiple managers before him serve as an example. You don’t win anything meaningful with that. Playing a deep backline, trying to hit teams on counters & long balls is not the recipe for building a winning team. So, he wants the players to get out of their comfort zone and play more proactively. I feel right now we are in a kind of silent standoff between the players and the manager, each hoping the other party will relent. If the management supports him and backs him, he might finally be able to break this resistance.
One thing he needs to do is to rely on youth to create competition for some of the senior players.
Overall, the narrative is being framed very narrowly to make it all about the 3-4-2-1 system. It helps the media as it simplifies a complicated issue and makes it easier to sell the narrative. The fans are buying into it as it gives them a false comfort - if only we change the system everything will be alright.
I am not saying Amorim will be successful or is in the right. However, the problems facing the club & the team are quite complex and need a nuanced discussion.
Who said he would perform better with the same squad? Isn't he on the record multiple times saying the exact opposite? He spoke many times of the pain ahead, even after we beat Everton 4-0 and people were talking about Europe.
Arsenal.
At the start of the 20/21 season they had a 14 game run in the league where Arteta got the exact same results Amorim did in the 14 game run you're highlighting. 4W, 2D, 8L.
Arsenal also got knocked out of the league cup at the end of that run.
And Arteta had already been in charge for half a season at that point, having inherited a team in a better position than the one Amorim has walked into.
Good post and agreed especially with the bolded part. We cannot under any circumstances give the power back to the players. Get with the program or leave.
Our xG is 8.3 goals higher than our actual goals. Our xG against is the 8th in the league.
The analogy doesn't speak of competence, the point of the analogy is that drastic measures have been taken (are being taken) to fix serious underlying problems, and that a period of pain is necessary and entirely predictable.
It was also about 'cause and effect'...the cause of the problems we have right now is not INEOS or Amorim. What they have doing is the effect of them treating the symptoms of our decline.
Let's judge at Christmas whether we're seeing progress on the pitch. I believe Amorim certainly deserves that, given the size of the job, and he deserves our support during that period.
That's the entire issue. The argument of time(or necessary pain) only makes sense in the context of definite competency.
Let's be 100% clear on the record. That post was not, is not, nor was ever intended to be, an attack on burgers. I think we all agree that burgers are fantastic.
If you watch the game, when Mazraoui was going out to mark the man , Maguire was asking him to come back and mark space.
To me, that's on field decisions, not instructions
Oh sorry, yeah you are right AWB, Scott are all Ballon D'or players.
Whilst the teams have been good, they have not been that amazing.. AWB has made mistakes this season and he wouldn't get into this United team. I can guarantee you that.
Oh yes.... if someone thinks AWB, Elanga and McTominay aren't good enough for us where we want to be... I must work jointly for Glazers and INEOS.
Yep.... you caught me. How did you know I work for both.?
You'll have to explain that one, because it's sounds like you're saying "no point changing anything unless we're sure it'll fix the issue"...which makes it impossible to ever change anything. I know you'll say you're not saying that...so what are you saying?
For the record, analogy or no analogy, I'm saying whatever time Amorim has had is nowhere near enough to prove or disprove competency.
I would also add...you can assume at least some level of base competency from his time at Lisbon. Is it directly equivalent? No. Is it an impressive (or even relevant) body of work nonetheless? I'd say so for sure. Remember, this man built a team that went for 4th or 5th best in Portugal to unbeaten in 20-odd games before he left, culminating in a thrashing of Man City, leaving them near (or at?) the top of the Champions League table. He's not some total, absolute novice.
But you're absolutely right in that I don't think any of us expected it to go quite this badly...but Amorim warned us it might and I am not totally surprised that it has.
Had you asked me for the context of that post, i.e. for a prediction at the time, I'd have said we will probably finish top 8. It's not like I was predicting some kind of charge for the title.
I still believe we have a bunch of talented footballers for the record, but I also believe the profile is all wrong, in terms of our lack of experience and physicality. I also still believe they're confused and low on confidence.
As many of us have pointed out, we regularly field 5 or 6 players that are 23 and / or in their first full season in the PL. Throw in a completely different style and it's bound to take time.
I credit Amorim for taking the hard decisions. Let's see where the team is at Christmas...if we not at least, at least starting to look like we're well-coached and well-organised, then I will seriously question Amorim.
His rigidity is going to be his downfall at United. The best managers adapt to win if it clearly isn’t working. The larger implications of Amorim potentially failing at United will be pointed directly at Berrada and Wilcox who pushed for this move despite concerns raised by Ashworth. If Amorim is sacked then it’s quite possible that Berrada and/or Wilcox are shown the door as well.
Our xG is 8.3 goals higher than our actual goals. Our xG against is the 8th in the league.
I suppose that is someway encouraging. While every team misses chances, some of the misses we've had are scandalous, and we're struggling this much we cant afford to pass up so many sitters.
Sorry I think we’re agreeing but from a different way. I think it’s telling that Ole had the most top league experience of the last 3 permanent managers we’ve hired, when he only had about 6 months at Cardiff. I sort of agree about the logic of the last hires we’ve made, but to me Jose made more sense than say Amorim, who the more we see of the less it makes sense. Amorim will likely be given time to turn this around but I’m doubtful that he’s capable of doing so.
I agree with this assessment. But i think its due to Onana and Yoro.
Yoro will be imposing and fast. Will compensate for the position flaws. But still not fully ready.
Onana is a liability outside the box (and in too, but not the point), and CB cant push to much forward.
Harry is not good and Ruben knows it, but was to rub him a little, there is no one else to be a leader on the team (Bruno isnt, not smart or composed enough).
De Ligt is not good on the ball but is world class at positional defending. Has to have 2 ball playing and fast CB by his side.
Am i roughly correct in thinking that given our current finances and so on, the following players will likely be part of a starting line up next season. Forget about exactly where each will play.
Onana,
2 from Yoro, De Ligt, Maguire, Martinez
Dorgu (presumably, since we just spent 30m on him with amorims approval)
Ugarte
Mainoo
Fernandes
As far as I can tell there's 7 starting line up spots filled. And that we would need a new fast defender, a RWB, a CAM, and a striker. Does that seem about right? In fact add Diallo, and perhaps the CAM becomes last priority of those 4.
Onana,
2 from Yoro, De Ligt, Maguire, Martinez
Dorgu (presumably, since we just spent 30m on him with amorims approval)
Ugarte
Mainoo
Fernandes
As far as I can tell there's 7 starting line up spots filled. And that we would need a new fast defender, a RWB, a CAM, and a striker. Does that seem about right? In fact add Diallo, and perhaps the CAM becomes last priority of those 4.