how many years did he have? How many trophies did we win? Were we improving? What is the relevance to the current situation?
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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Just giving someone time without them showing they deserve it is not long-sighted its stupid. This idea that time is this great healer which will correct everything is only peddled on the caf.
There are extenuating circumstances, no one is denying them. However, we are not asking him to win the league or play champagne football. The ask is to be half-decent and show signs of progress. I would be flabbergasted if you think that is unreasonable.
Simply giving time is not going to achieve anything. Hojlund is not going to become Van Persie and Arteta is not going to be the next SAF.
Its neither positive or negative, it's a prediction based on our form over an 18-month period, especially given current circumstances RE : morale, new ideas, loaning three of our most experienced attackers and suffering even more injuries.
The point that is being made, is not that people need to be 'happy clappy'...the point is that two months ago, everybody unanimously wanted root and branch overhaul, open heart surgery...and yet after every. single. game. it's bash the manager, bash the players, bash the system....it's so bloody tiring.
The point of appointing Amorim in December and letting Rashford and Antony leave on loan without replacements in January was never to improve us this season was it....it's all about performing that open heart surgery now so we can start to recover now...rather than kick the can down the line and waste all of next season as well
I get he's up against it with lack of recruitment in Jan and injures but he's losing me fast. He clearly doesn't have any flexibility with his system, I get he wants his system but can't be getting us into a relegation battle to do it, but yesterday showed he has no plan b, injury ravaged he still played his 3-4-3. Because the path we are on we could be flirting with relegation at the end of the season. Hopefully Ipswich and Wolves don't have a run of good form because they can cut the gap we have on them to single digits by beating us and then all they need is a couple of wins and some draws and next thing you know we need to win our last match while they only need to get a draw. Our league schedule the rest of the way and the reverse fixture already played
Everton- Win. But they are in better form and that was an Amad puts us on his back game, who is out for the season
Ipswich- Draw
Arsenal- Lost
Leicester- Beat them soundly with RVN as manager. But needed a var-less massive offside goal to beat them last week and i'm sure they'll be up for us after they got screwed out of the FA Cup
Nottingham- Lost
City- Needed an 88th min penalty and then a stoppage time goal from Amad to beat them.
Newcastle- Lost
Wolves- Lost
Bournemouth- Got embarrassed by them
West Ham- ETH final loss.
Chelsea- Draw but that was with RVN
Aston Villa- Draw but that was ETH playing with "we don't have to win, but we can't lose" tactics.
I don't see any gtd 3 points there with the form we are in. But I see 10 losses. Everton and Ipswich are nailed on losses, those are the next 2 fixtures and we are in such woeful form and injury ravaged. That leaves 2 matches Leicester and West Ham. Win those 2 and it's 37 points and safe, drop points in 1 of those and it's 33 points, and it's itchy bum time. Only 2 times in the last 20 years has a team had 34 or fewer points and stayed up, we better hope it ends up being 1 of those seasons.
Everton- Win. But they are in better form and that was an Amad puts us on his back game, who is out for the season
Ipswich- Draw
Arsenal- Lost
Leicester- Beat them soundly with RVN as manager. But needed a var-less massive offside goal to beat them last week and i'm sure they'll be up for us after they got screwed out of the FA Cup
Nottingham- Lost
City- Needed an 88th min penalty and then a stoppage time goal from Amad to beat them.
Newcastle- Lost
Wolves- Lost
Bournemouth- Got embarrassed by them
West Ham- ETH final loss.
Chelsea- Draw but that was with RVN
Aston Villa- Draw but that was ETH playing with "we don't have to win, but we can't lose" tactics.
I don't see any gtd 3 points there with the form we are in. But I see 10 losses. Everton and Ipswich are nailed on losses, those are the next 2 fixtures and we are in such woeful form and injury ravaged. That leaves 2 matches Leicester and West Ham. Win those 2 and it's 37 points and safe, drop points in 1 of those and it's 33 points, and it's itchy bum time. Only 2 times in the last 20 years has a team had 34 or fewer points and stayed up, we better hope it ends up being 1 of those seasons.
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I really want to support the new manager and give him time because it's clear that he has walked in to a mess of gigantic proportions.
He is not making it easy to get behind him though by stubbornly trying to force a system on players that aren't cut out for it. It's starting to look a bit like Andre Villas-Boas at Chelsea!
He is not making it easy to get behind him though by stubbornly trying to force a system on players that aren't cut out for it. It's starting to look a bit like Andre Villas-Boas at Chelsea!
If you are doing open heart surgery and the heart-lung bypass machine catches on fire, you should probably be worried.
United are 15th on the table after 2/3rds of the season, it is near-unprecedented for a club of this size.
What system are this particular collection of players cut out for?
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that sacking him between now and the end of the season would be madness - for so many reasons. Therefore there is far more to be gained by giving him and the team support between now then. I have never advocated giving someone time when they have shown nothing to warrant it, but 3 months is not very much time to judge someone on, particularly when that person's remit was demonstrably not to just 'steady the ship and finish as high as you can' however much you might want that to be the case.
A problem exacerbated by playing an extra defender in place of an attacker.
3. And he remains the only manager to finish in the top 4 two years in a row. Trophies matter for top teams that are settled top 4 teams. Only idiots would consider it a better season to go sigh 7th but win a Europa league once.
We’re not a cup team. First let’s try to be elite before worrying about random cups to satisfy our ego.
This always happens though.
A new manager gets a few results somewhere and it's declared that means something about our manager.
It's nonsense. There are so many variables at play between two different clubs, you can't narrow it down to just manager influence.
clueless
Now missing his best 4 players maybe 5 if we include Shaw. Unlucky on top of everything else. Relegation fight coming.
It's not nonsense though. Unless you disagree that sacking your manager mid season, in order to bring in somebody else has nothing to do with improving results. Even Ruben himself will tell you that, yet portions of our fan base attempt to normalize the current situation and that we've planned to write off the season.
He has already explained the rationale behind that. It was decided that it is better to try to implement the new system now rather than wait until next season as theoretically we'd be better off.
Also, we were awful under other formations too such as 4-3-2-1. There's a common denominator here and it doesn't get sorted overnight: the players.
Anyone who simplifies football down to that extent can be safely ignored.
It sums up our luck that for years we’ve cried out for a system and a way of playing, that finally comes and we are now in a relegation battle and we’d be better off playing different ways. This club man.
If the season continues as it has so far Amorims reputation and the clubs could be so damaged by the summer that recruting players of the standard we will require will become incredibly difficult and will be a huge risk to take for any transferees career. The only incentive we have will be to pay big wages, which we are trying to move away from, so we are unlikely to recruit the 5-6 positions that we still require. Amorim simply must find a way to win until then which will require him to get creative.
Fair, but you have the sheer power, pace, and flair of Beto and Alcaraz. Man Utd can only dream of having forwards of such quality!
They are also better than the rest or around their level in the case of Hojlund. Honestly it's getting annoying because these are only bad excuses for the managers ineptitude and for the attitude of certain supposed leaders. The squad is flawed and not good enough to guarantee CL Football but it's not a bad squad, even the players that I don't rate such aren't bad players. It's especially annoying when last summer most of the forum was giddy about the squad and the transfer business, it's annoying when most of the forum can't take any criticism made toward Garnacho or Bruno. Also many posters and sometimes the same posters speak from both side of their mouth, the players are shit but we can't criticize them or be open to sell them, we need to be patient with the managers because the team is shit or the players are not the finished product but we can't also expect them to be coached up by the manager, on what planet any club should trust a manager that can't coach up players to develop them?
Now out of all the decision makers Amorim is the least responsible because the context isn't good for him, the squad is ideally built for a 4231/433 and it's not his comfort zone, on top of that he joined the club in the middle of the season, so while I totally disagree with the idea of being wedded with a single system I can understand his position. But no one should have the indecency to suggest that this squad is playing at it's normal/expected level, nor that there should be no expectation of at least mediocrity from this lot. This is an EL level squad that is playing like a borderline Championship side half of the time.
We probably do and you are wrong. I don't even rate them highly outside of Amad but some of you are lying to yourselves. Funnily enough I'm not surprised, I see some of you rave about players like Ugarte.
I don't know, he had talks with West Ham in April. So if he was open to talking to a club like West Ham while the season was still going on, I don't see why he wouldn't have entertained talking to a club like United when the season was over.
The Z-system. Zombie-ball.
haha I would be so happy to be proven wrong on the quality of the squad/players. Ugarte has a lot of proving to do yet, yea.We probably do and you are wrong. I don't even rate them highly outside of Amad but some of you are lying to yourselves. Funnily enough I'm not surprised, I see some of you rave about players like Ugarte.
Have you changed your view on the mental strength/fortitude of our players at all out of interest? It still seems like a big issue to me.
Won absolutely nothing.
What is the context? I ask because the players that I know could comeback from bad situations aren't there anymore or aren't playing and it's the ones that people didn't like.
Absolute bollocks is that attack worse
Our attack that finished 3rd consisted of Sancho who was mostly benched or dropped, Martial who was always injured, the bang average on loan Weghorst, Rashford, Antony who hardly played, and a very young unproven Garnacho
Cold hard truth!
So what though? You're confusing cause and effect.
The open heart surgery analogy works perfectly in this exact scenario.
Lets say a sickly patient is overweight and has abused their body with drugs and alcohol. They have taken steps to 'get clean' and are on the heart transplant list. They are conscious, walking, talking, reading etc...and occasionally appear fine...but make no mistake, they're gravely ill.
They finally get the surgery they need but the immediate result is to weaken them even further and confine them to bed initially, with a long period of rehabilitation required ahead and continued work to improve their diet, fitness, lifestyle etc...
You don't say at that point "we should never have done that, now look what happened"- its an accepted and entirely predictable consequence. Its a necessary part of the process. Weed out the disease to come back stronger.
United are 15th because we have made monumentally horrendous choices for over a decade. At some point, we required this dramatic intervention or we would 'die'...or in football terms...we were on course to blow all of our money, fall completely out of favour with sponsors and lose relevance entirely.
You don't then go about blaming the medical staff, doctors etc...who are trying to fix the problem.
We're not 15th because of minor tactical issues or the managers 'styles or his choice of subs or whatever....so blaming the person / people trying to heal us at this point is pointless.
Imagine the "doctor" tells you it will take 18-24 months to recover...and even then, you might not quite be the same...what do you do when you "still" feel weak and sickly after 12 weeks? Give up? Go back to the burgers, booze and drugs?
I think we had a conversation during the last manager's time around the player's mental strength, and I believe you were of the opinion that they were strong enough in that regard and that it was a bit of a red herring. MIght have been end of last season, or start of this. Sorry if I have mistaken you with another poster if I have though. Can have a search later to try to find the posts where we talked about it.
One thing i dont get is his reluctance to use academy players. He keeps mentioning these players are not performing and we have to be the worst squad in Manutd history but he just refuses to use any young player
Surely young players are more amenable to his methods and will follow instructions just like he wants. We are not producing results with first team players so why not see which academy player is good enough for next season ? We cant surely get him an entire new squad next season
Surely young players are more amenable to his methods and will follow instructions just like he wants. We are not producing results with first team players so why not see which academy player is good enough for next season ? We cant surely get him an entire new squad next season
He's essentially failing his probation period in employment terms. But yeah, he needs time but I fail to see any green shoots of recovery at the moment.
we all know what's coming. few more defeats and he will be gone in summer. rinse and repeat. this time is not different.
Who cares. Let’s be a solidly top 4 team before we start crying about trophies. Would it really have changed anything if de Gea saves one penalty in the final? That sort of stuff is not up to the manager.
That was a classic example of perfect being the enemy of good. And now we’re all suffering for it.
Because he obviously doesn't feel that they are ready yet for first team football at Manchester United. Hardly any of them have loaned experience either yet. It would be unfair to expose them to the pressure that would come from it.
Usually you can introduce youth into more experienced teams with actual leaders. He can't do that here with this group. We already have the likes of Yoro, Dorgu, Garnacho, Hojlund and Zirkzee who are relatively young and inexperienced as it is.
great analogy!
I think that I see. I believe that I told you that one of the key thing about our previous teams especially under Ole was the ability of the team to not give up which has led to a lot of comebacks. It's not the same set of players and I have no reason to believe that they are in any way resilient.
Yes Amorim is. Ole was a much better manager for us.
We need to get past this notion that a manager who’s successful at one place is a “good manager” and a manager that fails at a place is a “bad manager”. It’s mostly about fit.
Gotta say, people who genuinely believe we have top 6 squad, are living in dreamland.
The "we got to 3rd place" argument is insane also. We barely got there and it was because Rashford had his once in a lifetime season and Casemiro/McFred kept popping with goals. We also had crucial amount of luck. Also, ETH got supported by bringing Weghorst/Sabitzer in january. They boosted the squad. Also also, we squeezed some goals from Antony and Sancho.
Our squad got twice as bad since the already difficult times then. Don't know what you expected to happen.
The "we got to 3rd place" argument is insane also. We barely got there and it was because Rashford had his once in a lifetime season and Casemiro/McFred kept popping with goals. We also had crucial amount of luck. Also, ETH got supported by bringing Weghorst/Sabitzer in january. They boosted the squad. Also also, we squeezed some goals from Antony and Sancho.
Our squad got twice as bad since the already difficult times then. Don't know what you expected to happen.
what are you bringing to the debate with this? Ole was not good enough and was rightfully sacked 3 years ago. Get over it.