It isn't complicated at all. When you are building a shelf you also prepare yourself asking what kind of shelf it should be, what kind of stuff it should hold, whether looks are important or not or what the budget is. I'd be understand your point way more when the kind of failure we see right now would look a certain way - but it doesn't - we lose games while getting outfought. Because we make individual mistakes. We have been just as bad in back-four systems and while I agree that he might overdo it in terms of expressing his unwillingness to change, I think it gets blown out of proportion and given too much weight for something that most likely is a piece of media strategy. Just to be sure, I think, he should adapt in terms of cutting down the pressing because it only leads to us creating room for the opposition while it doesn't do much in terms of creating many chances for us. Thats the adaptation I would say is reasonable. But whether we start with 3 CBs or 2 doesn't matter. In modern football you'd still be hampered when your fullbacks don't contribute in attack and if anything, thats a dead given of United for years.Feels a bit of an overly complicated response to a hipster style. Top managers are adaptable, and he said he won't be with his formation. That means that even though he has some good players he won't put them in natural positions which sets him up for failure.
I personally believe we were always going to struggle, regardless of formation but I don't understand what he means by "sticking to his principles".
Should a formation be part of a coach's principles?
Feels a bit of an overly complicated response to a hipster style. Top managers are adaptable, and he said he won't be with his formation. That means that even though he has some good players he won't put them in natural positions which sets him up for failure.
Because it's literally the managers job to get the best out of his squad. If you need 11 new players, you're not a manager but a glorified shopper
To be honest he was probably the one steady head in there, think Berrada and Wilcox are both battling to be the decison makers and Brailsford keeps chipping in.Why would sacking Ashworth, by definition, be problematic?
That it's easy for a manager, any manager, to turn it around as the fundamental issue is still the overall squad.
Don't really understand the massive amount of moaning and bitching, the situation is what it is and it's not going to change quickly. The vast majority wanted the club to decide on a structure that would allow us to bring in managers to fit the structure rather than the manager deciding the structure, causing disruptions every time we sack and hire someone. We've decided on a way forward, we've hired a manager that we think we'll fit into those plans and he was hired mid season into a shitshow that we're trying to turn around. Amorim says he wants to do it in a specific way because he's certain it will benefit us going forward, rather trying to adapt too much, he says he's perfectly aware that there are big risks involved especially related to his job but he wants to stay true to his ideas, which is another thing people kept moaning about in regards to previous managers not sticking to their ideas.
If he ultimately fails or not remains to be seen, but given the overall circumstances there's no reason not to give him time.
Even if that was true, we're 15th, not midtableWell tell that to Pep , It’s like Pep managing Ipswich and moaning because the squad can’t play his system
It doesn’t matter who our manager is this squad finished 8th last season and will be lower this year its a mid table team with one of the highest wage budgets and transfer net spends in the whole of Europe it’s a complete shit show and yeah we generally do need about 8-9 new players regardless
Partially yes. If he had no clue what to do with this current group of players, he should have been honest with himself (and our board)
Also, Amorim's rigid way of playing needs more than one summer transfer window to sort out. There is no chance he is getting 11 new players this summer if that's when he wanted to join.
He was expecting it to be a shit show that’s why he asked to come in the summer
But nothing will majorly change after this summer. We won't be embarking on a £200-300m spending spree. He will have been made aware the club is skint.
Bang on the money.We have made years of terrible decisions and consistently bailed ourselves out of the very worst of it through sheer luck or spending our way out of the most perilous of trouble. Eventually it all comes home to roost and the crisis reaches boiling point. The years of terrible recruitment leading to a shit squad and no money to spend, an injury crisis, a crisis of confidence. Years of terrible and diametrically opposed coaching pathways.
Eventually you have to pull the plaster off and reset everything, whether you like it or not. The only thing we have to build on is youth. That’s it. There’s nothing to be salvaged from our recruitment or previous coaching work. It’s a complete reset from top to bottom. As long as we don’t get relegated this season it doesn’t really matter what results are this season, we have to build a new basis and new foundation for moving forwards. Jettisoning Amorim or compromising on the vision just delays the inevitable and is more patchwork “solutions”. We’ll be right back to mediocrity in no time and be so in perpetuity.
Days like today, what can you say? A narrow defeat with 12 senior players out, a bench full of 17 and 18 year olds, most of whom who haven’t even made debuts. In an already flawed squad, that’s a difficult set of scenarios by any measurement. We just have to survive this season, recruit sensibly in the summer and then, hopefully next season can actually make a run at being a decent top six side. The players will have had time to assimilate to the new approach, tactics and standards and the team will hopefully have been augmented with a few specialised players. It’s always worth remembering how fine margins are at the top level.
Its also true that it is always darkest before the dawn, and that this day has been coming for a long, long time. We spent hundreds of millions under Ten Hag to get much, much worse. We have Sancho, Antony and Rashford all out on loan. 160m pounds of recent acquisitions and the big star from the academy. Three players who were supposed to be the face and threat of the team. All washed out. This disaster has been brewing for years, and the legacy of massive, stupid signings, and egregious contracts is coming home to roost. Eventually we were going to have a season that was an utter, unmitigated disaster, and here it is. Putting it on Amorim is akin to calling the fire brigade to put out an inferno, and then blaming them for the blaze. He didn’t even want to take over until the summer because he could see what a tragic mess it was. Well, he showed his faith in us and now we have to in him.
Fergie took over a massive shambles of a mess too and it took him several years to sort it out, including some really low moments. People called for his sacking. From the outside it is incredibly hard to judge the work he is doing on the inside, all we do know is that unlike the previous several managers, he doesn’t have a massive budget to work with, hasn’t been able to make any notable signings except a youth player from Arsenal and a youngster from Lecce. Of all the managers who have come and gone and been given time, his circumstances and his track record would tell me that he deserves the most patience. Not least because switching gears yet again seems to make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
This is a clusterfeck of epic proportions but it’s a clusterfeck a decade in the making. The only vaguely sensible decisions I’ve seen us make have happened in the last 6-8 months, and how sensible those will prove to be is still yet to be determined. What I do know is that where we are now is not of Amorim’s or Ineos’ making. Whether they are the ones to get us out of it and build a brighter future is as yet unknown, but I’ve seen enough and been around long enough to know that they didn’t create this mess. And the way they’ve gone about resetting the club and making decisions, has more logic to it than at any point since Fergie retired. Unfortunately it’s just far too little, far too late, to avert the doom that has engulfed us this season. Statistically we should’ve been in this position already last season, and it was by sheer luck that we weren’t. This isn’t the result of one or two bad decisions, this is the result of scores of terrible decisions over a very long period of time. Looking for acute solutions to a chronic problem is missing the point entirely. This requires institutional reform.
I’m sure he knew it was a long term project but he would have given himself the best chance starting in the summer, he wouldn’t have got 11 players but he would have got more than 1 that’s for certain
To be honest he was probably the one steady head in there, think Berrada and Wilcox are both battling to be the decison makers and Brailsford keeps chipping in.
exactly thisWe have made years of terrible decisions and consistently bailed ourselves out of the very worst of it through sheer luck or spending our way out of the most perilous of trouble. Eventually it all comes home to roost and the crisis reaches boiling point. The years of terrible recruitment leading to a shit squad and no money to spend, an injury crisis, a crisis of confidence. Years of terrible and diametrically opposed coaching pathways.
Eventually you have to pull the plaster off and reset everything, whether you like it or not. The only thing we have to build on is youth. That’s it. There’s nothing to be salvaged from our recruitment or previous coaching work. It’s a complete reset from top to bottom. As long as we don’t get relegated this season it doesn’t really matter what results are this season, we have to build a new basis and new foundation for moving forwards. Jettisoning Amorim or compromising on the vision just delays the inevitable and is more patchwork “solutions”. We’ll be right back to mediocrity in no time and be so in perpetuity.
Days like today, what can you say? A narrow defeat with 12 senior players out, a bench full of 17 and 18 year olds, most of whom who haven’t even made debuts. In an already flawed squad, that’s a difficult set of scenarios by any measurement. We just have to survive this season, recruit sensibly in the summer and then, hopefully next season can actually make a run at being a decent top six side. The players will have had time to assimilate to the new approach, tactics and standards and the team will hopefully have been augmented with a few specialised players. It’s always worth remembering how fine margins are at the top level.
Its also true that it is always darkest before the dawn, and that this day has been coming for a long, long time. We spent hundreds of millions under Ten Hag to get much, much worse. We have Sancho, Antony and Rashford all out on loan. 160m pounds of recent acquisitions and the big star from the academy. Three players who were supposed to be the face and threat of the team. All washed out. This disaster has been brewing for years, and the legacy of massive, stupid signings, and egregious contracts is coming home to roost. Eventually we were going to have a season that was an utter, unmitigated disaster, and here it is. Putting it on Amorim is akin to calling the fire brigade to put out an inferno, and then blaming them for the blaze. He didn’t even want to take over until the summer because he could see what a tragic mess it was. Well, he showed his faith in us and now we have to in him.
Fergie took over a massive shambles of a mess too and it took him several years to sort it out, including some really low moments. People called for his sacking. From the outside it is incredibly hard to judge the work he is doing on the inside, all we do know is that unlike the previous several managers, he doesn’t have a massive budget to work with, hasn’t been able to make any notable signings except a youth player from Arsenal and a youngster from Lecce. Of all the managers who have come and gone and been given time, his circumstances and his track record would tell me that he deserves the most patience. Not least because switching gears yet again seems to make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
This is a clusterfeck of epic proportions but it’s a clusterfeck a decade in the making. The only vaguely sensible decisions I’ve seen us make have happened in the last 6-8 months, and how sensible those will prove to be is still yet to be determined. What I do know is that where we are now is not of Amorim’s or Ineos’ making. Whether they are the ones to get us out of it and build a brighter future is as yet unknown, but I’ve seen enough and been around long enough to know that they didn’t create this mess. And the way they’ve gone about resetting the club and making decisions, has more logic to it than at any point since Fergie retired. Unfortunately it’s just far too little, far too late, to avert the doom that has engulfed us this season. Statistically we should’ve been in this position already last season, and it was by sheer luck that we weren’t. This isn’t the result of one or two bad decisions, this is the result of scores of terrible decisions over a very long period of time. Looking for acute solutions to a chronic problem is missing the point entirely. This requires institutional reform.
Ashworth had a track record, Berrada didn't do the job he is doing now at City, so is he qualified to do it. Wilcox does seem to have a good reputation.How would any of us know either way?
People on the outside have a bizarre way of deciding on things and sticking to their guns. Ashworth was lauded as some sort of must have genius to build up the entire organization. The importance of Berrada coming in from Manchester City. Ashworth fecked off and people will jump on whatever bandwagon that suits them, while him being fecked off can be down to a lot of reasons and not all of them are problematic in terms of how the club is being operated now. Also, just because we've seemingly decided on a sporting structure it doesn't mean it's going to instantly work out and that there isn't going to be modifications made along the way.
I honestly don't care at this point. It's early days and it'll take time. People took the piss out of Liverpools model with a transfer committee and couldn't understand the idea behind taking the decision making away from the manager, it would never work and just result in further complications. They had to make adaptations, they needed a manager happy to work with such a system, and it turned out to be a fairly good idea and then people starting complaining why United weren't set up the same way.
How would any of us know either way?
People on the outside have a bizarre way of deciding on things and sticking to their guns. Ashworth was lauded as some sort of must have genius to build up the entire organization. The importance of Berrada coming in from Manchester City. Ashworth fecked off and people will jump on whatever bandwagon that suits them, while him being fecked off can be down to a lot of reasons and not all of them are problematic in terms of how the club is being operated now. Also, just because we've seemingly decided on a sporting structure it doesn't mean it's going to instantly work out and that there isn't going to be modifications made along the way.
I honestly don't care at this point. It's early days and it'll take time. People took the piss out of Liverpools model with a transfer committee and couldn't understand the idea behind taking the decision making away from the manager, it would never work and just result in further complications. They had to make adaptations, they needed a manager happy to work with such a system, and it turned out to be a fairly good idea and then people starting complaining why United weren't set up the same way.
No, we sacked Pearson and brought Ranieri in the summer.I might be misremembering but isn't that exactly what Leicester did?
I see no reason to have faith in Ineos for a complete reform. The youth teams aren't even playing a similar system to Amorim from what certain posters said.
They've botched plenty of decisions thus far.
The decision to not sack ETH during the summer was just pure incompetence.
Liverpool's transfer committee didn't work that's what they had between 2012 and 2016. They got rid of it in 2016 and appointed their first DOF which was a member of that then defunct committee under the advice of Klopp.
Yes, I've seen this posted too and it is particularly worrying for me because if the system is so rigid and the youth teams are not training on it since day one, then how in the hell are we supposed to integrate them into the first team in the future?
Everyone at all levels needs to be playing the same style so the transition to the first team isn't going to be a system shock.
I think it was quite simply protecting young players that are not ready for first team football and blooding them in this environment could really damage their progress.Yeah, don't get not using some subs. I mean you're already losing. What's the worse that can happen you lose by more? Is he worried about goal differential?
Edwards being named sporting director and the committee itself no longer existing doesn't really change the overall concept, it was just modified and it doesn't really change the fact that it was the overall concept of the manager not being responsible for player signings/sales that people disagreed with.
You disagree with everything that everybody has written unless it's relentless negativity.I disagree with everything you’ve written.
You disagree with everything that everybody has written unless it's relentless negativity.
I say this / mean this sincerely and in the nicest possible way...why don't you just take a break from watching until the start of next season?
I only really watch our games now out of boredom / morbid curiosity. I'd personally be surprised if we won more than three PL matches between now and the end of the season. I have made my peace with that. I accept its our penance, our punishment for a decade (or more) of gross mismanagement.
BalebaSo what exactly are you disagreeing with then?
Do you think 3-4 new players in the summer window will transform this squad under Amorims system into a top 4-6 side?
It totally changes the concept. They went from a three many committee to following the direction of a single man. People issue wasn't with the idea of a head coach instead of a manager but the fact that ruling by committee generally doesn't work. Nearly no club has a manager responsible for player signings/sales and the vast majority of people have no issue with it.
Moyes has Everton moving up the table & past us just fine, the idea we have to buy St.Amorim a new squad before he can win a single game or something is pure insanity, unless people think our squad is worse than Everton’s, somehow.The idea that we could sack Amorim, bring in a new manager and get better results for the rest of the season is completely fecking ludicrous to me.
We are currently reaping what we have sowed, and what we saw have sowed is incredibly poor squad building. Amorim has had no influence on that whatsoever beyond Dorgu. If Amorim does end up being sacked the primary reason will have been that we brought him in midseason to manage a complete shitshow.
Hi all
Newbie Wolves fan come is peace but I did live in Higher Broughton for many years in the late 80s/early 90s so saw all the players at the Cliff, Fergie running around in a big gold Mercedes and a few amusing encounters with McGrath in the city centre. Went to lots of games including the ECWC semi against Legia Warsaw at OT
I have been watching the comments with interest and just wanted to say something from an outside perspective (and a supporter of a club below you in the league)
It is a really difficult situation with Amorin - he clearly has talent and is really committed to his 'project' which has served him well in the past and this was all known at the time of his recruitment. He is in a really tricky position now though and I am not sure how easy it will be for him to get out of it
He should not have been forced to come mid-season when the players are/would not be available for his system that he is known to be committed to. If the stories are true then Ashworth was perhaps right to caution but how any caretaker would have worked in that situation is hard to see (Rangnik showed that)
The future is difficult to read - there are some talented players at United but none, even as a Wolves fan, I am particularly coveting - to someone who saw the 90s team coming into its own that is quite something. There do not seem to be any funds available for Amorin to really target proven players of the type he would like so he is going to have to take a punt on some of the youngsters or buy in cheaper emerging talents - not something easy to do
In the end though football is a results game, especially for United and (moreso if Liverpool win the league) and he has to start winning at some point and that is where I worry most - are the club going to invest the money he needs in new specific players or will they wait until he has shown he can get the most out of the players he has, and will hav, for a while longer? Europe next year may be a 'must' for him
As has been mentioned many times this is not really the fault of Amorin or any indication of what type of manager he is. I just wonder if he was the right manager at this time for United and whether another approach could have helped to stabilise a difficult situation. His commitment to his project is clear but if it is not winning games then something has to give at some time. I do worry he perhaps is a little inflexible for the current time. The United fans I have known are usually very patient (I remember that the were always supportive of Fergie during his first few years) so that may help him.
The problems lie elsewhere obviously - the player culture at OT has been spoken about a lot as has been the upper levels which seem not to have improved much either. I am not a fan of Ineos for a number of reasons and don't see them as a good choice but that is my own (biased) view
We have had our share of bad owners - the Bhatti brothers who took us to the brink, and Fosun are hardly great but we were lucky to get Sir Jack as a benefactor who laid the groundwork that Nuno eventually prospered from. Ratcliffe should try to be more like Sir Jack than the Glazers!
Fingers crossed and will pop in to make some (hopefully constructive) observations
Of course not, that absolutely plays it's part. I just think good looks and how you present yourself go a long way. Football's just an extension of real life in that sense.So you don't think any of it is to do with him dominating the league with Sporting after them not winning it for 20 odd years?
That's fair and this isn't me advocating for Southgate. I didn't want him then and I don't want him now. But I don't know if we can make this argument when we're 15th and playing like we are.Southgate would have been doing much better in terms of results.
Ultimately it was going to get us nowhere, probably.
Currently we expect Amorim to reshape the whole idea of the team, to something more promising and sustainable.
It was never going to happen in 3 months.
With a better finishing yesterday we win and this thread doesn't enter this ludicrous spiral.
And Fulham game we really created nothing (Fulham 0.5 xg vs United 0.2) and it was the Martinez deflected shot that won it with Collyer heading it off the line for us and Munoz skying that last minute shot. Sky were even doing graphic on it early in his tenure re playing 5 defenders but he seems a stubborn dude.I have checked all our wins under Amorim.
- 1. Against Everton. Amad was wingback.
- 2. Against Pizen. Pizen scores. Antony comes on for Malacia. We score 2 more goals.
- 3. Against City. Antony comes in for Mazraoui. We score 2 goals after 61 minute.
- 4. Against Soton. We started game with Amad as Wingback.
- 5. Against Rangers. We started game with Amad as wingback.
- 6. Against Fulham. The only game we played with 5 defenders and won all through.
- 7. Against FCSB. The Garnacho half time substitution on for Malacia. The legendary one.
- 8. Against Leicester. Half time substitution. Leicester was 1 nil up at half time. Dorgu off for Garnacho. We score 2 goals in second half.
You can see even our fortunes with Amorim here changes drastically when we play with less than 5 defenders.
Take time and go through this and see if its true.
Big Sam for the impending relegation dog fight.If they did sack him do you trust the club to chose the right replacement? It is just a general question.
