Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

Players can't play 343/532, manager can't adapt, club can't afford new players.

This is a road to nowhere and questions need to be asked of Berrada bringing this guy with the knowledge we were broke and couldn't bring in players to fit this completely new system in January.

I was all for the "pain" this season, but there's just no training these players, they're fecking useless so the pain is going to carry on until we can't get 11 of this managers players in, circa 2 years minimum before we start looking like we can play this system as we can't afford more than 3 players a window!
 
The problem is, Ten Hag did a bad job with a team built for his football. Why should Amorim do a better job when he’s playing a completely different system? If you look at it, this was all pretty predictable. Amorim seemed overly negative at first when he kept talking about tough times ahead and not playing well even after convincing wins, so he clearly knew what was coming. Ineos apparently didn’t move on him in the summer as they knew our squad was ill suited to his system.

So really, none of this should come as too much of a surprise. The question for me is, what’s the plan now? Are they expecting a lean summer or are they going to somehow invest to sort the problem they clearly knew about? If not then none of this makes any sense whatsoever.

These are the same people that gave a man they actively looked to replace,a contract extension and spent another 200M on building a squad for his style of football while knowing full well they intended to replace him within the year.

They then proceeded to hire a guy they skipped over in the summer for concerns about playing staff and playing style miss match, without having a plan in place for how to handle that transition - while sacking the one football guy who voiced concerns about this approach.
 
They wouldn't. Not the forward options anyway.

It's alright praising Amad but the lad hasn't yet shown he can physically give you full seasons at the top level. Talented or not you have to be available.

Garnacho's finishing has been diabolical. It's been lower Prem League standard at best. In fact I reckon there are Championship forwards who could finish better.

Hojlund hasn't scored in an incredible amount of league games now(incl last season). That is literally relegation standard goalscoring.

I generally like all three players but they're not ready to play for United. Not consistently anyway.
Well which players from those teams would start for us? Cunha would but there aren't many obvious ones beyond that.

Our players are underperforming but that's not a reflection on whether they'd get into the other teams. Villa signing Rashford is evidence of that.
 
I like him I really do and I do still hold out hope that he turns us around somewhat. However calling a spade a spade, we were never this bad under ETH, even last season. I thought that was a new low but this form is making last season look impressive!
 
Struggle to see how this is true
It’s not true, ETH beat City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal at home in his first season and beat Chelsea at home in his second.

Ruben Amorim has beat City(A)
Drawn in Fa Cup with Arsenal and Draw away against Liverpool, he’s lost to Arsenal, lost twice to Spurs

RA United record is pretty dire P21 W9 D3 L9 simply not good enough but we should give him time because INEOS chose their man, like I said Omar needs to go back to city and make the teas and coffee, he’s been sent to United from City to sabotage from within!
 
Players can't play 343/532, manager can't adapt, club can't afford new players.

This is a road to nowhere and questions need to be asked of Berrada bringing this guy with the knowledge we were broke and couldn't bring in players to fit this completely new system in January.

I was all for the "pain" this season, but there's just no training these players, they're fecking useless so the pain is going to carry on until we can't get 11 of this managers players in, circa 2 years minimum before we start looking like we can play this system as we can't afford more than 3 players a window!
It's almost like berrada is a commercial guy who by dint of moving to our shitshow of a club now has scope to make footballing decisions he shouldn't be leading on
 
At this stage I think he won't survive next season. Sacked by Christmas, and honestly I don't care anymore.
 
Well which players from those teams would start for us? Cunha would but there aren't many obvious ones beyond that.

Our players are underperforming but that's not a reflection on whether they'd get into the other teams. Villa signing Rashford is evidence of that.

Rashford hasn’t started for them yet and they haven't bought him yet. Let's see. I know how Rashford was playing for us for years.

But in any case you're right we wouldn't be wanting many Wolves players etc but that's because there's not much between theirs and ours.

El Khannouss/Hutchinson vs Garnacho
Vardy/Delap vs Hojlund

I look at Wolves today. I prefer our back three and Bruno. The rest? I don't see anything in it.
 
Anyone feel that strongly against this 343 formation they'd be willing to cast aside Amorim now if it meant getting a manager in willing to play 433?

I've got major reservations about spending a summer budget on this formation. It's clearly why Ashworth ended up leaving as well, maybe because he could see there is barely a single player within the squad that can play it.
 
You look at how Moyes has effortlessly turned Everton around and just think what the hell are we doing. Now I wouldn't have Moyes anywhere near this club again but feck me, football is a simple sport and we've now hired two managers in a row who want to overcomplicate it by playing these weird, niche systems which confuse our players and rob them of confidence and belief.
 
You’ve just described us under our last manager. Is it possible the new manager isn’t actually the problem here?
Of course the problem are the players, there's no doubt about it. Like I said I hope we have enough patience and give enough resources to Amorim for him to actually have a chance to succeed.
 
Amorim doesn't have the tools as his disposal right now.

He built his Sporting team around two defensive midfielders (Hjulmand and Morita), defenders with recovery pace that can push up high, two technical and creative 10s who could dribble, wing backs and forward in Gyokeres, and before him Paulinho, who could lead the line and act as target men who could bring others into play.

Very few of the ingredients are there. But to continue with the cooking analogy, if you don't have the ingredients, then you have to made something else for dinner.

It is getting even harder when you have to player Bruno and Casemiro as your two defensive midfielders and Zirkzee and Garnacho will never be who he would profile to fit into the role as his inside 10s.

I think he probably thought he would stick to his guns and not change, but may be having regrets now. Very hard to turn back but perhaps with all the injuries he has an excuse to change to a different system and put more bodies in the areas where we are lacking, which for me is center of midfield - that is if we have bodies!

Does what he did at Sporting domestically really prove anything? Can you name the 4th best team in Portugal and who their best player is? Knocking Benfica and Porto off their perch isn't that impressive when they continually sell their best players too.
 
I don’t understand this though, out of the last three managers we’ve hired Ole has the most experience managing a team in one of the top 5 leagues. I liked Amorim a lot when he came in and I was a big critic of Ten Hag, but we’ve simply lost too many matches to have any sympathy for Amorim. If you could still score goals with a back 5, all teams would play it; they don’t.
As in Ole’s stint at Cardiff? I guess it was PL but there’s nothing wrong with coaches showing skills in lesser leagues (and both ETH and Amorim did stuff with a non dominant team, albeit ETH then moved the Ajax and Sporting were hardly some relegation fodder but still).

The formation thing I think the reality is a good coach gets it to work or adapts. I don’t think he survives if we lose to Everton and Ipswich.
 
I cannot blame Amorim for the mistakes by Onana and Garnacho today. You could stock any one of caftards in the job and not expect Onana and Garnacho to drop turds match after match.
 
Of course the problem are the players, there's no doubt about it. Like I said I hope we have enough patience and give enough resources to Amorim for him to actually have a chance to succeed.

We don't know if that's the case 100%. It could be maybe 50% true, solely saying "the players" isn't logical. We could have also hired two managers in succession who are out of their depth from two leagues which are levels below PL football. We've recruited enough poor players, maybe we're also recruiting poor managers. There's no definitive answer to this mess.
 
Anyone feel that strongly against this 343 formation they'd be willing to cast aside Amorim now if it meant getting a manager in willing to play 433?

I've got major reservations about spending a summer budget on this formation. It's clearly why Ashworth ended up leaving as well, maybe because he could see there is barely a single player within the squad that can play it.

Yes. Committing to a 3-4-3 and investing god knows how much on players for it this summer is a fool's errand. All we're doing is kicking the can down the road in terms of a rebuild that might actually work.

If a 3-4-3 was the answer and a viable path to success in Premier League, guys like Pep and Lego Pep would be using it.
 
Anyone feel that strongly against this 343 formation they'd be willing to cast aside Amorim now if it meant getting a manager in willing to play 433?

I've got major reservations about spending a summer budget on this formation. It's clearly why Ashworth ended up leaving as well, maybe because he could see there is barely a single player within the squad that can play it.

The only reason Amorim hasn't been fired is because it would embarrass Berrada et al too much.

Unless the FFP rules suddenly go out the door, we can sign a new squad, and sell all our existing players, we are going nowhere under Amorim.

I genuinely feel for the people who still think he can turn this around. I was the same with Van Gaal at first, then Mourinho, then Ole, then Rangnick and, yes, even Ten Hag. Anyone can go back through my post history and see me clutching at straws for any sign we'd turned the corner under each of those coaches.

It's natural, it's a lot harder to admit we're moving even further away from being back than believing if just one thing goes our way everything will 'click.'

I just can't do it anymore. I can't keep lying to myself every time it goes wrong because I want so badly for it not to be the case.

Take the emotion out of it and everyone can see this coach, with these players, under the current set of FFP rules is not a winning combination. Consciously or unconsciously we are all just waiting for the inevitable.

I can't remember any coach going from literal relegation form on a points per game basis to challenging for the title. It just doesn't happen and it's not going to start here. The senior management at United are trying to pretend that up is down right now. Sadly, reality will hit home eventually. I just wish I was wrong. I am f'd off with the wilderness years.
 
The bottom line is that we have zero momentum and zero morale. The players are falling apart mentally you can see it as clear as day. Bruno who is an excellent player is going downhill very fast indeed. Look at him today playing out of position and making shocking errors (although still creating 2 great chances) he's clearly so so frustrated and it's really effecting him. I think even the Garnacho is suffering from a lack of confidence and he is the man who never stops trying.

We have to simplify the game, if the formation isn't working just do something else. I don't want to see him fall on his sword for something as stupid as a formation. It annoys me that he was so stubborn at the start and probably thinks he can't go back.

I would love us to just go dead simple, back 4 with two deep lying mids protecting them, get the ball in and cross/cutback our way to 40 points.
 
I want a trophy or progress. I've given 6 managers patience and the benefit of the doubt. I can't anymore. Get it right.

A side note - how gangster was Fergie? He played Mecheda during a TITLE run because he had the hot hand. And he goes on to win us the title with 2 game winners. And he wasn't even that good. What a call by the greatest.

Today's 3 minutes to the youngster was poor management, a cry for help, or sticking it to upper management. I don't know which one.
 
Yeah, it's becoming harder to see the light at the end of the the tunnel here. Hopefully he can keep things going in cups and some young players get some game time.

It just feels like it will take a miraculous summer transfer window and an unimaginable improvement by the players next season to even sniff a top 4 finish.

Competing for top 4 might not be a reality until 2028 unless there is some radical changes. These league games are crushing.
 
While I get the argument on Amorim not being flexible, I would point to the following.

1) He didn't want to come till the summer, the club forced him with a now or never ultimatum. Consequently, he has a squad already bereft of confidence and in an awful position.

2) Negligible January reinforcements. While I think Dorgu is showing some promise amd there's a tad more balance to the team, they were absolutely crying out for someone who knows how to finish. That did not happen.

3) While yes, Ruben should be tweaking a bit more to get something out the team, I don't think it's wholly unreasonable to expect some flexibility from the players. They're professional footballers for crying out loud, are you honestly telling me it is THAT hard for them to play a different way. For people saying go back to the 4231 or a 433, I really get why....when the team were quite clearly setting the world on fire these last few years, playing liquid football in those formations.....

4) He needs time. What's he expected to do with a team low on morale, with no money to spend, his form player out injured along with a number of players that would be in/around the first XI. I think for certain, he needs a clean slate in the summer, with players offloaded and funds to bring in young and hungry players, on lower wage contracts than the useless idiots around now and build a spine of a team of fast and eager young players with a few experienced ones to guide them.

I'm not saying he's above criticism. Some of his team selections have been poor, and today for example, he was waaay too cautious with subs. Casemiro was a disaster the entire game and needed to come off.
 
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I understand why people are asking why we aren't trying something different set up / formation wise to pick up some better results, but please try to get passed the emotion and consider this logically.

He's been asked to takeover a shit show mid season, that is a fact and is undeniable and very important just for overall context.

He's also been asked to take over because he's been admired by the board (or someone on the board) for the job he's done at Sporting and what he's achieved there. All of this achieved by implementing his methods. And I leave that vague purposefully because his methods include not only playing in a 343 formation, but in the way he operates, the mentality he instills and his ambition.

He's been told we're really struggling for dough (whether that's cashflow, PSR etc) and they will have to be very shrewd in the market going forward to make enhancements to the squad. This is also fact, I'd say so anyway going by the comments he's made multiple times in the media regarding the mistakes made in the past and how they just can't make these mistakes in the market going forward.

So what we know is, we were (are) a shit show, the board want the team to play Amorim's way (I'd like to think most people would be on board with playing the way Sporting were under Amorim?) but that alone doesn't mean too much in the context of this season standalone. We were pretty screwed when he took over anyway so I understand the short sighted view of, lets play a different way to pick up points in the league to an extent (to an extent because our league postion is essentially no mans land anyway - we're not getting relegated and we're not finishing in a european place). And finally, we have pretty significant financial issues.

Where changing formation / style to pick up results becomes problematic though, is the money issue we have. This squad cannot be immediately turned over to suit Amorim's needs, we simply don't have the PSR room and even if we managed to create that room with the sale of guys like Rashford, Garnacho etc. we would still have cashflow issues. Amorim needs to play this way for the remainder of this season because he needs to know who gets it. We're not going into next season with a whole new squad, there will be a decent group of players in our current squad who whether Amorim actually rates them long term or not, will be part of this squad next season and he needs them to be able to play his way. If he came in and abandoned his set up, formation, call it what you will, he'd be entering next season still not knowing if half his squad that he'll need to use could play his way, even worse, who in the squad could actually play his way so they'd have potentially let players leave who may have actually been better suited to his system. Make no mistake, this isn't pure stubborness and arrogance on Amorim's part, there probably is some of that, I'd expect that from a top manager but the squad are on trial here and you can bet your arse he's keeping the ones who are coachable and fit his needs above all else.

Personally, that makes absolute and total sense to me given how his hands are tied financially.
 
Every game there is something that gives you more questions than answers with him

Dorgu on the right last game, Obi 3 min cameo this time... Other than being unflinching on his formation and quite charming if naive during pressers, let's be honest, it's been shit since he's arrived and it's only getting shitter.
 
I strongly questioned his appointment from the beginning. I was not convinced we were getting an upgrade on the previous manager only the same at best. What I’ve seen over the past 3 months is truly shocking! People can say we have a poor squad but look at the difference in Everton since Moyes went back there. As stupid as it sounds Neil Warnock would have got a tune out of this team. Sometimes it just requires the basis to get momentum and we can’t even manage that!

I think at best he’s an average manager well out of his depth. People can point that to the fact Sporting won a league and played some good football, Bruno Lage also done that, ask Wolves fans how his tenure went.

The calibre of managers that were available after the FA Cup final also goes to show how wrong Ineos have got this. They surely have to be looking at other alternatives even if it means not making a change until the summer.
 
I strongly questioned his appointment from the beginning. I was not convinced we were getting an upgrade on the previous manager only the same at best. What I’ve seen over the past 3 months is truly shocking! People can say we have a poor squad but look at the difference in Everton since Moyes went back there. As stupid as it sounds Neil Warnock would have got a tune out of this team. Sometimes it just requires the basis to get momentum and we can’t even manage that!

I think at best he’s an average manager well out of his depth. People can point that to the fact Sporting won a league and played some good football, Bruno Lage also done that, ask Wolves fans how his tenure went.

The calibre of managers that were available after the FA Cup final also goes to show how wrong Ineos have got this. They surely have to be looking at other alternatives even if it means not making a change until the summer.
If you can't tell the difference between winning the Portuguese league with Benfica (who have won it every other year for the last decade) and winning it with Sporting (who hadn't won it for 20 years before Amorim), I dunno what to tell you.
 
I don’t care if he’s sacked to be honest, mentally I’m checked out from growing any sort of attachment to anybody that represents this club these days.

You remind me of me during the last season of Mick McCarthy. I wanted to love them, but you just can’t force something like that.
 
Thing is, if we get money for them, that means they were good players. If they are crap players, we wouldn't get good money for them.

So what you’re saying is that there’s just enough ammunition for each side to claim that their views are valid?!
 
The fact he has not improved one player is shocking?
He's made some players worse, like Garnacho, Dalot and Hojlund. Amad has improved I guess but he is such a talent that you'd imagine he only needed to be given a run in the team.
 
If you can't tell the difference between winning the Portuguese league with Benfica (who have won it every other year for the last decade) and winning it with Sporting (who hadn't won it for 20 years before Amorim), I dunno what to tell you.

It means nothing. Look at the counterparts that have won the league like Loputegi, Bruno Lage, Perriera, Jorge Jesus and AVB. How many have been a success outside of Portugal?

McClaren won FC Twente their first league title. Sometimes it works out for managers at specific clubs. Maybe that was the case with Amorim at Sporting.
 
Amorim doesn't have the tools as his disposal right now.

He built his Sporting team around two defensive midfielders (Hjulmand and Morita), defenders with recovery pace that can push up high, two technical and creative 10s who could dribble, wing backs and forward in Gyokeres, and before him Paulinho, who could lead the line and act as target men who could bring others into play.

Very few of the ingredients are there. But to continue with the cooking analogy, if you don't have the ingredients, then you have to made something else for dinner.

It is getting even harder when you have to player Bruno and Casemiro as your two defensive midfielders and Zirkzee and Garnacho will never be who he would profile to fit into the role as his inside 10s.

I think he probably thought he would stick to his guns and not change, but may be having regrets now. Very hard to turn back but perhaps with all the injuries he has an excuse to change to a different system and put more bodies in the areas where we are lacking, which for me is center of midfield - that is if we have bodies!
Then ADAPT!

What kind of coach just loses game after game without adapting something. The players aren’t retaining anything by constantly losing. He is years away from having this so called ideal team, so what then? 15th next season as well? Even Pep is adaptable and he has the greatest system of the era. Every single top class winning manager adapts.

What he is doing now is complete and utter folly. It is poor management. He has made us worse in every way and I’m skeptical that the players have actually retained anything.

Anyone who thinks this is going to change with signings has learnt nothing from the past. Successful managers make things work and then improve the squad. I am absolutely certain he will not turn this around with his current philosophy. This is more than just the poor squad at this point.
 
Gotta play Casemiro as a midfield anchor in front of back three, then two attacking mids in front of him, two central forwards. period.
I rather we don't field Cas at all. He loses the ball way too often and in dangerous position.
 
If you can't tell the difference between winning the Portuguese league with Benfica (who have won it every other year for the last decade) and winning it with Sporting (who hadn't won it for 20 years before Amorim), I dunno what to tell you.
Obviously it was a better achievement, but it's not like Amorim came to the PL like Mourinho as a Portuguese league winner and European champion.

Lage won with Benfica at a canter, then went to Wolves and got found out, and now he's back there and doing well in both the league and CL.
 
I am beyond shocked that he did not think of changing something. Just bring on a kid, even if it is for nothing. He was just sitting there like deer in front of headlights, not thinking of making a single change as the playing XI just did feck all.

To make it worse, he brought on the kid in the 90th min. Why bother?? What is that supposed to mean or indicate?

And all this after getting the 7-8 days of training that he craved so much.


I am so disappointed.
Yes. His bluff may have been called.
 
Then ADAPT!

What kind of coach just loses game after game without adapting something. The players aren’t retaining anything by constantly losing. He is years away from having this so called ideal team, so what then? 15th next season as well? Even Pep is adaptable and he has the greatest system of the era. Every single top class winning manager adapts.

What he is doing now is complete and utter folly. It is poor management. He has made us worse in every way and I’m skeptical that the players have actually retained anything.

Anyone who thinks this is going to change with signings has learnt nothing from the past. Successful managers make things work and then improve the squad. I am absolutely certain he will not turn this around with his current philosophy. This is more than just the poor squad at this point.
Good post. Some home truths there.
 
Needs to change something. This is really worrying. We’re actually in a relegation fight now.
 
Needs to change something. This is really worrying. We’re actually in a relegation fight now.
I don't think that we are. 17th and 18th need to get more than 100% of the points that they have achieved to date to be safe. We only need slightly over 30% more than our current total.