Well the attemped shots, which was a huge complaint with ETH's side, are well down, it's a start, he's been here 3 months, he's a football coch not a miracle worker
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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We have averaged more goals conceded per game under Amorim though. So I don't think we can say he's tightened the defence just yet.
I was literally just reacting to that set of stats that was shared along with the comment that a lot of improvement was required. Personally I've been saying for days that comparisons are pointless at this stage, but here is a set of stats that do show some small improvements and you guys won't even give the poor fecker any credit for it! He's been here 3 months and added 1 first team player and is being unfavourably compared to the previous guy who had 2 and a half years and several hundreds of millions of pounds.
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There you have it, in case there was ever any doubt.
To be honest I think he’d be saying this anyway. That’s the position of the club now be it in reality or for our buying position.
We will also sell expensive players and replace with cheaper. E.g if we sell a Garnacho for 70m, we’d be replacing him with 2-3 players for 20-30m each. They’d be younger too and less risky in terms of total financial loss if they don’t work out.
I see transfers like Dorgu, Heaven, Chido, and Leon as how will operate for the foreseeable future.
The question is whether you can build a UCL/top 4 team this way
I might be undestimating him, but imho he has shown very little at United. Fans who rate him tend to focus on his Sporting days and do not like to talk about his achievements at United. Let's see where we are in May.
Easy mate I was simply pointing out that (so far) we concede more goals under Amorim. And that it's a bit too early to say he's tightened up the defence.
I'm not having a go at you or Amorim.
If your scouting is really good and the project is going places you can beat out other clubs and pick up the next Bellingham Haaland Caciedo and whoever else for much less than just going out whacking 70 million on whatever 22 year old looks really good that season but the recruitment really really needs to be on point. So say it is and we do that and we have more hits than misses for a few years, really really big if going on the evidence we've seen so far... say we somehow end up as good as Dortmund (or RBL etc) were with Bellingham Sancho and Haaland. Does that team make top 4? I'm not so sure. To bring a team like that to the next level you also need cash to be able to buy your Kanes or Rice when they come on the market. Almost sure things won't come cheap and missing out on them means... we are kind of ok with turning into the arsenal of old.
My comment was not so much on the stats themselves as the fact that they were being presented as a bad thing when in fact some were in an improvement. Like I say, I think most comparison stats are pretty pointless at this stage as it's such a small sample size and we're not comparing apples with apples.
But what happens when those 2-3 players are rubbish and you end up with another 2-3 players (still presumably on high wages) on 5 year contracts.
yeah you’re right. fold the club.
Dorgu is on a relatively low wage for us, so hopefully we have seen the end of the large paying people to come to us contracts. Sign players who want to improve not ones who actually think United is a little bit below them.
The idea is similar to Dorgu. He doesn’t earn very high wages, and even if he doesn’t perform well, we can comfortably transfer him to another team for something like £15 million in two years. This wouldn’t be a financial loss from a PSR perspective, and the outlay of around £20 million over two years, and modest wages, is considered a worthwhile risk.
Compare this strategy with Antony and Sancho, and you’ll understand why the club is adopting this approach, especially considering our financial situation.
The success of this strategy hinges on our ability to identify and develop the right young players and establish the appropriate infrastructure to integrate and enhance them. It’s challenging to rely on these aspects, and at its best, adopting a strategy similar to Brighton and Dortmund would aim for a top-four finish. However, I believe we are currently in a position where we need a few seasons in the Champions League, stabilize our finances, and then make significant moves to push for higher positions and challenge for major trophies.
It's crazy looking back how hamstrung we were by that
Well, yes.
You mean rate him based on him having time at a club to put his ideas into practice, to develop young players, to train the team, and to continually be able to survive losing his best players and identifying excellent replacements.
Compared to those fans who don’t rate him who ignore all of what he has achieved previously and think he should be sacked before he has a preseason or full summer transfer period.
It's not bad to act like there's no money, so other clubs can't expect massive and ridiculous offers we've provided since Fergie left. Plus saying that we need to sell is nice way to finally get rid of some leeches in the club.
Standard has never been lower. Facts are, he hasn't tightened the defence st all. Despite playing with an extra CB, we are not more solid.
We have possession more and therefore concede less shots. But opponents still create as much against us, and we ourselves create less.
-6 goal differential isn't pretty.
Not that he's a huge problem but we need a better keeper. We should also just abandon Martinez at this point, sadly.
It does feel like the set piece defending has gradually improved. It’s not pretty still but I’m not shitting myself at every corner.
There's no point busting out the defensive stats this early. None of them show Onana diving on a cross or Yoro mistiming a jump and giving away a free goal. These aren't system related goals. Small sample and there are too many anomalous variables right now. He'll be judged next season, after a proper summer and not a second before letting him tweak the squad. Like it or not, he isn't getting sacked just because he might not finished 8th with a squad that already got the last manager fired. I don't know who are these worldbeaters in this team that have people expecting more than what we're seeing.
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Strange press conference from Ruben. The early swagger is gone as he comes to realize that the club is a total shit show with no money to spend on players after the amount wasted on ETH's signings the last three seasons. Seems like the Mainoo and Garnacho "are on the market" rumors are more than that and one or both of them would be up for sale in the summer. It's very important for us that Rashford, Antony and Malacia smash it at their loan clubs so that their sales can fund buys in the summer.
Also, him being evasive on the injury issue to a player suggests to me an important player has picked up a knock. I wonder who that is?
Not expecting much from the Spurs game after that presser. After banging on about the need for time to train he didn't sound very confident after the time he has had on the training pitch recently. Reminded me of what Keane was pointing towards in the latest Stick to Football episode.
Also, him being evasive on the injury issue to a player suggests to me an important player has picked up a knock. I wonder who that is?
Not expecting much from the Spurs game after that presser. After banging on about the need for time to train he didn't sound very confident after the time he has had on the training pitch recently. Reminded me of what Keane was pointing towards in the latest Stick to Football episode.
Coach was never Man Utd issue. I said it before - you can have a committee of 3 best current coaches in the World and we would still lose games to average teams. Gotta built team culture from scratch and winning will eventually happen. No shortcuts.
I see nothing in Ruben that is a differentiating quality over Haag so this episode is another waste of time.
I see nothing in Ruben that is a differentiating quality over Haag so this episode is another waste of time.
[MEDI=youtube]aNrs0cfqi8c[/MEDIA]
Some seriously good football journalism again by The Athletic team.
Some seriously good football journalism again by The Athletic team.
Cant keep reading, its just too much.
After an horrible coach and awful signings for 600 mil, lots of fans just became management experts.
Judging every action from day one. Not seeing the slump when got ourselves into.
I do think he is very good. I think he will need time. Since ineos, decision making has improved a lot.
Thats about it.
After an horrible coach and awful signings for 600 mil, lots of fans just became management experts.
Judging every action from day one. Not seeing the slump when got ourselves into.
I do think he is very good. I think he will need time. Since ineos, decision making has improved a lot.
Thats about it.
No he likes a left footed right wing back for a specialist reason when his team switches into 2422 attacking formation through the thirds, the left footed. Wing back goes to play as a narrow Right inverted striker next to the physical dominant number 9!
That is not a traditional wing back role, it’s a role that suits a specialist type of player!
Why do you think Amad has a right wing back is chasing down the southampton defenders and robbing the ball off them, why do you think his number of 9 goals and 9 assists are. So high?
It’s part of his specialist role. Tyler Dybling also suits this role as he’s left footed right 10 who could plays as the RWB specialists who operates much higher than the left wing back does in his system.
We agree the team requires good footballers but more importantly where young players from the age of 14/15 are over coached with numerous ideas, these players require an extremely high football IQ because there’s so much for them to think about in an Amorim system, this is why we are recruiting so many young players, they are more malleable and take on new ideas easier as well as still being worth a decent sell on value in The transfer Market.
We might have maybe 7 to 8 players in our squad who are ideal type Amorim players, Kobbie at the moment isn’t because he has huge stamina issues and he’s still young and learning the game as an 8 or as a creative 10.
There is much more to this than just the statement from Ruben, yesterday the EPL voted to keep PSR for one more season which has made life much more difficult for Man United.
The PSR rolling three years for next season will now be season 22/23, 23/24 and 24/25 with permitted losses of £105m after Add Back concessions.
This is good in one sense as we lose the £150m loses from 21/22 season however the other two seasons are £28m and £113m of loses plus whatever this season is. The club had a lot of add backs due to Covid concessions and SJR investment of £230m last year, redevelopment of Carrington etc, however we really do need to sell at least one maybe two academy players for big money.
I’m convinced Ruben means that Rashford and Garnaucho might have to be sold for a combined £100m or at least Rashford must be sold and probably before July 1st to add to the Mctominay and Greenwood sales which will also go into this accounting year.
This year’s accounts should see a net transfer profit which would allow them to spend maybe as much as £200-250m on new players but only on acquisitions after July 1st 2025.
The bigger concerns are cashflow and actual liquidity, what money is available within the clubs bank accounts to allow them to spend the £100-150m in the summer to buy new players. The Club can’t keep paying in instalments on all new transfers as the club still owes £350m+ in transfer debt alone.
Sir Jim has put his £230m in and isn’t putting any more in unless he gets more shares, remember the Glazers own 49.9% of the shares but still own over 70% of the voting shares.
I genuinely believe Berrada, Judge, Vivell and Wilcox have been tasked with clearing out as much of the squad as they can to raise cash in transfer sales and clear the wage bill.
I saw a ridiculous story today saying Antony will go to Bayern for £42m, never going to happen, but all part of the spin to try and sell him for £25m which is what he’s worth.
These are the players I think we will sell or will leave on a free;
A Bayinder / Sell £7m - wages £40k
V Lindelof / Free - Wages £100k
J Evan’s / Free - Wages £60k
Casemiro / £15m - Wages £350k
C Eriksen / Free - Wages £180k
Antony / £25m - Wages £200k
J Sancho / £25m - Wages £250k
M Rashford/£40m - Wages £325k
R Hojlund /£40m - Wages £90k
Plus we will sell at least 2/3 academy Players like; Harry Amass, E Wheatley
and Joe Hughill for £20/25m combined again 100% profit. I expect to see at least 3 to 4 of these players sold which is unfortunate and everything that’s wrong with the PSR system.
It’s important to note that all of these lower value transfers are normally paid upfront in cash in the summer so the club could feasibly raise £120-130m of cash which would then be used to buy players and help Ruben in his rebuild. More importantly the wage bill would be reduced by £1.6m per week or £80m per year that’s 30% of our players wage bill!
The defence is a problem, but if you look at goals conceded by other teams it isn't the biggest problem, the fact we have only scored 28 goals definitely is. How can we win games if we do not score goals. Aston Villa are above us on -3 GD. Brentford have scored 42 goals for goodness sake, mind you they have also conceded 42. City have score 20 more goals than us and they are having a bad season, yet have conceded one more. The goals issue has been there for years and the club have not taken it seriously and now it is leading to our downfall. Amorim needed backing and he just won't get it, it will take years to build a challenging team. Trouble a lot of people do not have the patience for that. They want everything now.
Totally agree we are 1.16 average goals scored per game in EPL all season. The worrying fact here is we are in decline from a pretty mediocre 1.5 goals scored per game last season. We bought a new Striker to replace apparently constantly injured Martial, got rid of Sancho and then Rashford and Antony for half a season and wonder how this will improve, hindsight is a wonderful thing, Sancho is now starting to revert to type at Chelsea and that was great buisiness, Rashford for £40m might prove the same, but moving out 3 wingers/Inverted strikers and not even signing one in January means this stat isn’t getting better any time soon unless we find a gem from the youth teams.
Why let Huighill and Wheatley both go out on loan when it’s clear one of them could have operated from the bench for the rest of the season as Zirkzee will be utilised more and more as one of the inside 10’s going forward?
We might get lucky and Chido Obi, Lacey, Ivragimov, Moorehouse or Scanlon break through for the last 10-12 PL games and the board would love that, it saves even more money.
The reality is we must buy a proven Number 9 with experience in the summer not another 19-22 year old prospect?
We must also buy another PL proven inside Striker/Number 10 like Cunha or Mbeumo to add to this and correct recruitment issues of the past .
I am very impressed with some of the kids, but that does not always translate into them becoming first team quality players. We are screaming out for another Class of '92.
They are the most talented group since 1992 group, Jack Fletcher, Ibragimov and Lacey all suit the inside 10/SS/Playmaker Role
J Scanlon, V Mussa, H Amass, could all play wing back as could Bendito Mantato and at least one of them should have been called up already given how desire we are in this position. They are a very talented group but we need to manage their integration into the first team squad very carefully.
It's them getting a proper chance and maybe our financial situation will force the clubs hand. It is how many go on tour that will be interesting. If they do well, maybe we need to take a punt on a few of them. Then the fans will need patience if they make an error, it is called growing pains, but if it saves us millions in the longrun, surely it is a good thing.
mad isn't it?!
Hugill having to drop from L1 to L2 in January and Wheatley not even making the bench in Walsall's last 2 games is probably a good indicator of why.
I'm just going to highlight one line from this monumental volume to try again to make my point:
"We might have maybe 7 to 8 players in our squad who are ideal type Amorim players, Kobbie at the moment isn’t because he has huge stamina issues and he’s still young and learning the game as an 8 or as a creative 10."
Please tell me which manager Mainoo's lack of stamina and inexperience would not be a problem for? This is not something which only presents as a specific issue because we have Amorim rather than another manager, and that's pretty much the same for the vast majority of your points.
You have written the Redcafe equivalent of the Lord of the Rings trilogy throughout the course of this thread attempting to show us exactly why YOU know that Amorim is not the right manager for us. He's only been here for 3 months! Why do you devote so much time to such relentless negativity when they guy's not even had a chance yet? It's weird.
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Once again, full focus on what he achieved in a minor league and no mention of his record at United. ETH also had a great record in a minor league, and AVB.
I don't have unreasonable expectations on Amorim but we have to do better than the Palace and Leicester games. 3 months in and it is like we are almost going backwards. But what can he do with these players? We have a player quality issue but soon we'll have a growing coaching issue if this 3421 won't start working.
You clearly did not understand my point because it’s quite the opposite, I think Amorim is the man but will need a squad carefully recruited to meet his demands, why bring a guy in when you know he’s going to rip up the squad and start from fresh when you don’t have the money to back him?
That’s my point, Ruben could be fantastic but not if he doesn’t get his players that buy 100% into his ideas, his philosophy, but clearly the technical gravity of his system was to much for you to absorb. (You seem to think some of the Cafe want to sack managers after every bad result, far from it but at least give the guy a fair chance by helping him with player recruitment)
Let’s see how you react three months from now if he’s still losing 54% of his PL games, I’ll be consistent and say;
‘what did you expect when the club had a winter transfer window and bought him one player?’
Let's say we got Ancelotti instead of Amorim. Which of the players in the squad would you have said were good enough to solidly target top 4 and the title? And which players out of that list does Amorim have no use for?
I'm not sure that list is as extensive as you seem to be claiming so I'm interested how different you see it.
Yes, you've written him off because we won't have the vast amounts of money to spend on the squad that you have convinced yourself he will definitely need. We all know - including Ruben - that we're in financial dire straits and will need to sell to buy, and therefore, just like any other manager, Amorim will make a success of that or not. What good is writing thousands and thousands of words outlining why you know he'll fail? Why not just give him a fair amount of time and see how he gets on? If your criticism is genuinely just of INEOS for bringing him in without enough budget to back his ideas then take that to a relevant thread.
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