Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[DJ_21]

We dominated a team that’s 3rd in the league. With better Strikers than zirkzee and Hojlund we score a couple after 23 attempts.

 

[DJ_21]

Is anyone actually anti Amorim?

Everyone likes him, but you can't ignore the league form? He's on a run of form that would see most managers sacked.

I just pray for the Europa.

He doesn’t have good enough attackers though. We dominated and with better strikers we score a few after 23 attempts.

 

[red_de_pologne]

 

[united for life]

Although this system is not my favorite, i think it is not a system issue for us at the moment. It is quality of players. I mean, i really feel at times that we do not have attackers. It looks impossible to get a goal. Who was going to score yesterday? Hojlund? Zirkzee? Garnacho? All poor. Bruno drops deep to create play.

The system relies a lot on wingbacks who, in our case, are not doing enough. Dalot is obviously struggling in that position and Dorgu has done nothing so far to indicate he is good enough (probably needs time to be fair to him given he is new to the league and his age). Hopefully amad will help in the rwb position when he’s back (this is where I hope he plays).

There is also a lack of consistency in midfield and the back 3. Rotation is one thing, but what is happening is something else. It is rare that we start the same players consecutively in these positions.

It’s surely a quality issue as of now and this needs more than one transfer window. I just hope we see improvement as we progress in life under Ruben.

 

[Red Rash]

In my opinion we need to get to the summer and back him with at least 5 starting players.

RWB
CB
CM
AM
CF

We need to ship out the likes of Rashford, Sancho, Antony, Casemiro, Shaw, Lindelof, Eriksen and some others to accommodate this of course.

If the board can't deliver we will be in the same position next season. The issue is the quality of the players especially in the attacking third that we need to solve as soon as possible.

 

[Abhinav]

While the result was disappointing, there is a clear pattern emerging to our play over the last few games. We are able to create overloads on the wings and are also able to keep possession in the middle. I am quite optimistic for next season if we manage to get 2-3 quality attacking players in the summer transfer window.

Also, it’s impressive to see Ruben speak with so much clarity during the press conferences.

 

[pcaming]

In my opinion we need to get to the summer and back him with at least 5 starting players.

RWB
CB
CM
AM
CF

We need to ship out the likes of Rashford, Sancho, Antony, Casemiro, Shaw, Lindelof, Eriksen and some others to accommodate this of course.

If the board can't deliver we will be in the same position next season. The issue is the quality of the players especially in the attacking third that we need to solve as soon as possible.

I think we can skip CB this summer if we can have the numbers, unless numbers are low it's presently serviceable.

 

[Red Rash]

I think we can skip CB this summer if we can have the numbers, unless numbers are low it's presently serviceable.

Not sure, Evans and Lindelof should be gone. Martinez is injured a lot. Shaw should go.

It leaves us with Maz, Maguire, De Ligt, Heaven and Yoro. One or two injuries and we will be in trouble.

 

[tomaldinho1]

He doesn’t have good enough attackers though. We dominated and with better strikers we score a few after 23 attempts.

Is that the norm though? Forest are quite unique in how they play, we should have won but many teams dominate them. Same thing happened at home as well.

If this was how we played in general, I’d be inclined to agree, but it’s not.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is that the norm though? Forest are quite unique in how they play, we should have won but many teams dominate them. Same thing happened at home as well.

If this was how we played in general, I’d be inclined to agree, but it’s not.

It’s how we’ve played recently though. Which is the main thing.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It’s how we’ve played recently though. Which is the main thing.

The positive is the run of the last few games though the pessimist in me notes who those teams are. Hopefully we can convert the dominance and chance creation into games against the next rung of teams up the table - mouth, West Ham, wolves, Brentford all to come.

 

[Zumbi]

It makes perfect sense to exclude the 14-15 season since United finished 4th and had the 4th most goal. It's in 15-16 that the team struggled remarquably to score, they had the 8th most goal and it also made sense when you consider the players available.

My original argument was that LVG had more attacking options at his disposal than Amorim does. When discussing the attacking firepower of LVG’s squads versus Amorim’s squad, why does it make sense to arbitrarily discount half of LVG’s tenure, and furthermore to cherry pick four players from the end of one of his seasons?

If LVG’s teams finished 4th and 8th in the goal scoring, whilst Amorim’s is currently 14th in the goal scoring, then surely that proves my point?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The positive is the run of the last few games though the pessimist in me notes who those teams are. Hopefully we can convert the dominance and chance creation into games against the next rung of teams up the table - mouth, West Ham, wolves, Brentford all to come.

One of those teams was Arsenal.

And I’m not sure we’ll see any kind of significant upturn in our results any time soon. Not with our dire front line*. All I’m hoping for in the league is for our level of performance not to drop. Last night was a perfectly acceptable performance to me, despite the result.


*Although the return of Amad will hopefully make us a bit more potent.

 

[Rozay]

Wonder how Ruben would do if he had Mo Salah as his main goal threat. If he had Allison in goal rather than dive weirdly Onana.

He’d probably have no position for Salah in his team.

 

[tomaldinho1]

One of those teams was Arsenal.

And I’m not sure we’ll see any kind of significant upturn in our results any time soon. Not with our dire front line*. All I’m hoping for in the league is for our level of performance not to drop. Last night was a perfectly acceptable performance to me, despite the result.


*Although the return of Amad will hopefully make us a bit more potent.

Arsenal 1-1? I think it was ok from us considering where we are but they were pretty dominant. Decent gap in xG, 69% possession and 17 shots to 10. We were good value for the draw but were very much the weaker team.

I mean more we have played generally quite well the last 3 games, Forest, Leicester, Sociedad i.e. been unarguably the dominant team, enforced our gameplan onto the game. Forest do what Forest do but we should have still won were it not for some bad luck/finishing.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Arsenal 1-1? I think it was ok from us considering where we are but they were pretty dominant. Decent gap in xG, 69% possession and 17 shots to 10. We were good value for the draw but were very much the weaker team.

I mean more we have played generally quite well the last 3 games, Forest, Leicester, Sociedad i.e. been unarguably the dominant team, enforced our gameplan onto the game. Forest do what Forest do but we should have still won were it not for some bad luck/finishing.

Yeah I thought the Arsenal game was a decent performance and result. Also showed that Amorim is a lot more pragmatic than a lot on here will give him credit for. It was the right gameplan for that particular fixture but was different to how we played in the subsequent games. We approached Arsensal in a not dissimilar way to how Forest approached us and 17 shots to 10 reflects a closer balance of play than the 23 to 8 we saw last night.

 

[cpresc]

Forest could make tactical changes on bring on decent players for fresh energy.

We brought on Eriksen..

Amorim must be depressed AF

 

[roseguy64]

Absolute god awful comment. Slot inherited a T10 squad in the world with 4 genuine world class players in his starting XI, and he's benefitted from his top attacker having an all time level season. If you're getting that sort of top level production individually, it makes tweaking a system and ironing some tactical issues far easier as you're still able to get results while doing so. Comparing what he's done to anything Amorim has had to deal with is stupid because the situations aren't remotely comparable.

Whether or not Amorim succeeds is one thing, but any manager in football would struggle to get good results with the current crop of players we have available, especially in attack where the single good attacker in the club is currently out until probably the last few weeks of the season. He can pull all of the tactical tricks and coaching he wants, none of it matters if Garnacho still skies shots over the bar or refuses to pass to other players, or Hojlund ghosts in games and can't hold up the football. It doesn't matter what system you play if you're attackers are still unable to ever execute in the final third.

Man Utd have accumulated 15 points in that period since Pereira was appointed at Wolves. That's been 4 wins, 3 draws and 7 losses.

Pereira was appointed when Wolves were 19th in the table and they've had better results.

 

[Rozay]

We dominated a team that’s 3rd in the league. With better Strikers than zirkzee and Hojlund we score a couple after 23 attempts.

Judging by that, everyone dominates them. Firstly, they played the game on the edge of their box, as they always do. Secondly, we were chasing the game from 10 minutes in too, so even less incentive for a team like Forest to go toe to toe.

We played good football, but did little in the final third. We were restricted to largely low percentage chances, and Matz Sels made little to no saves of note. Other than Maguire’s late industrial approach, we didn’t create one excellent chance.

 

[Posh Red]

Judging by that, everyone dominates them. Firstly, they played the game on the edge of their box, as they always do. Secondly, we were chasing the game from 10 minutes in too, so even less incentive for a team like Forest to go toe to toe.

We played good football, but did little in the final third. We were restricted to largely low percentage chances, and Matz Sels made little to no saves of note. Other than Maguire’s late industrial approach, we didn’t create one excellent chance.

Build up play was good, in my opinion. Ultimately, you need good quality attackers to do the rest. Theres only so much a coach can do to change that.

 

[Rozay]

Man Utd have accumulated 15 points in that period since Pereira was appointed at Wolves. That's been 4 wins, 3 draws and 7 losses.

Pereira was appointed when Wolves were 19th in the table and they've had better results.

This is not the only example. Gary O’Niell did similarly at Bournemouth, Eddie Howe came to Newcastle with them lower than we are now and started getting performances out if Dan Burn, Jacob Murphy and Joe Willock almost immediately.

It is not mandatory to be shit just because you are new. Some coaches come to clubs and simply perform. It doesn’t make it the end of the world necessarily if you struggle initially, but what people need to stop doing is acting as if, by virtue of being new, you obviously can’t do anything. You can - some do and some don’t.

 

[JPRouve]

My original argument was that LVG had more attacking options at his disposal than Amorim does. When discussing the attacking firepower of LVG’s squads versus Amorim’s squad, why does it make sense to arbitrarily discount half of LVG’s tenure, and furthermore to cherry pick four players from the end of one of his seasons?

If LVG’s teams finished 4th and 8th in the goal scoring, whilst Amorim’s is currently 14th in the goal scoring, then surely that proves my point?

I know your original argument, you aren't remotely close to being correct. Not only you mixed players that didn't play together, you also judged the quality of players based on reputation instead of abilities at the time, as an example Falcao was totally unfit, he had done is ACL and MCL in January 2014 and it too him more than two years to go back to decent level. Chicharito played for Real Madrid and Welbeck for Arsenal. RVP was a shadow of himself as was Rooney. It's actually a small miracle that we scored 62 goals in 14-15.

In 15-16, the attack was mainly Martial, Depay, Lingard, Mata and Rooney with Memphis being. That group was roughly around the quality of what we currently have and they likely will have similar records. The previous season Di Maria made a big difference in spite of being surrounded by dross.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yeah I thought the Arsenal game was a decent performance and result. Also showed that Amorim is a lot more pragmatic than a lot on here will give him credit for. It was the right gameplan for that particular fixture but was different to how we played in the subsequent games. We approached Arsensal in a not dissimilar way to how Forest approached us and 17 shots to 10 reflects a closer balance of play than the 23 to 8 we saw last night.

Yeah, I don't have that many worries if we go up against the top 3-4. I think we can sit deep, be compact and generally be in a game. We have a generally good squad overlap with a bit too much youth dependence up top. I honestly think if we played that way this year, how we did from Mou through to ETH first season, we'd be in amongst the EL places but it would never really lead anywhere, I don't think you can ever win the big trophies playing as Forest do.
The issue comes when we try and play more through the lines as Amorim ultimately apparently wants, that is the step I personally want to see before the end of this season. We have enough games against middle of the league opposition to see it now hopefully.

 

[DJ_21]

Man Utd have accumulated 15 points in that period since Pereira was appointed at Wolves. That's been 4 wins, 3 draws and 7 losses.

Pereira was appointed when Wolves were 19th in the table and they've had better results.

Surely you understand that it’s a lot easier to manage teams like wolves than it is to manage us? Amorim probably gets the same or betters that if he took over at wolves. The pressure is miles apart.

 

[roseguy64]

We dominated a team that’s 3rd in the league. With better Strikers than zirkzee and Hojlund we score a couple after 23 attempts.

We dominated a team that loses the possession battle almost every game.

 

[0le]

In 15-16, the attack was mainly Martial, Depay, Lingard, Mata and Rooney with Memphis being. That group was roughly around the quality of what we currently have and they likely will have similar records. The previous season Di Maria made a big difference in spite of being surrounded by dross.

Got me thinking just now about whether Garnacho or Martial had better first seasons!

 

[Garnacho Libre]

Forest could make tactical changes on bring on decent players for fresh energy.

We brought on Eriksen..

Amorim must be depressed AF

Not trying to hate on Eriksen or Casemiro but replacing one player who doesn't have legs anymore for another is a problem.

 

[Zumbi]

I know your original argument, you aren't remotely close to being correct. Not only you mixed players that didn't play together, you also judged the quality of players based on reputation instead of abilities at the time, as an example Falcao was totally unfit, he had done is ACL and MCL in January 2014 and it too him more than two years to go back to decent level. Chicharito played for Real Madrid and Welbeck for Arsenal. RVP was a shadow of himself as was Rooney. It's actually a small miracle that we scored 62 goals in 14-15.

In 15-16, the attack was mainly Martial, Depay, Lingard, Mata and Rooney with Memphis being. That group was roughly around the quality of what we currently have and they likely will have similar records. The previous season Di Maria made a big difference in spite of being surrounded by dross.

Never claimed they all played together, also admitted they weren’t at their peak, and yet, his squads still scored a lot more goals than our current squad. You literally posted the stats yourself which show this.

 

[Eugenius]

That’s pretty funny when you arbitrarily discounted all the forwards from LVG’s 2014-2015 season to cherry pick what you thought looked like the weakest four.

If you can honestly look at our current attacking options and think they’re on a par with the options we had in our 2014-2015 and 2015-2016 LVG squads then there’s not much point arguing with you.

I really don't get (not trying to be patronising) your initial point though. I'm saying what LVG had in his 2nd season, which got him sacked largely because we couldn't score goals and played boring football. I just looked at the FA Cup Final - a front line of Fellaini, (young) Rashford, Mata and Martial.

We had better attackers on paper in 2014/15 - but why do you think they all disappeared by the next season? Di Maria was great for his first few games, and was a great player but he downed tools quickly and got benched - he scored 4 goals that season. RVP scored 10 goals in 2014/15. Falcao literally scored 5 goals for us and Chelsea in two seasons in England. Rooney scored 14 goals. As mentioned Welbeck and Hernandez were binned off quickly - which was one of LvG's biggest screw ups.

 

[Rozay]

Build up play was good, in my opinion. Ultimately, you need good quality attackers to do the rest. Theres only so much a coach can do to change that.

I agree, the build up was good. However, my only problem is that we play with one forward too few. So many times in the first half we won the ball back around the halfway line, but we lacked penetrative targets to hit.

Then there is the make up where when we do have available outlets, they are very often trained defenders, as opposed to being what you would hope are our most dangerous and talented offensive players. And that is an issue with the coach. Why have we constructed a team designed to isolate Patrick Dorgu in attack rather than a quality winger? Dorgu and Dalot will often find themselves in dangerous positions, but they cannot reasonably be expected to produce what their counterparts at other teams in similar positions do. We are getting Dorgu free in positions Brighton are trying to work Mitoma into.

Does Estupiñan, at left back, really offer his team much less offensively than Dorgu at LWB? The system is a problem, it has too few offensive players, both in terms of position and also personnel/make up. Earlier on, everyone just filled in blanks to appease themselves by saying ‘once we get Quenda’ and ‘we know we don’t have a LWB’. Well Quenda isn’t here, and won’t be, and we’ve now seen the hand we have played at LWB. And this is not a hit-piece on Dorgu by any stretch. He is what he is. He’s a LB, and will probably be a very good offensive support at LB. But clearly doesn’t have the talent to play as the primary attacking outlet out there. But again, not many players would, who are not actual top class wingers. And top class wingers don’t play wing back. I said months ago, it’s a position of averageness. People say ‘oooh, he plays real wingers there’ - but Salah will tell you to feck off, and frankly, you wouldn’t want him there anyway. So you either play not very good wingers there, or you play full backs there, invariably. Or you go and get Alphonso Davies and one of the few other unicorn actual top class WB’s. Which cannot be out grand plan!

And the likes of Mason Mount and Bruno are not forwards. They play behind forwards. So this entire system has at least one too few genuine top class forward options. If Mason Mount went to Madrid, he would not be competing with Vini, Mbappé or Rodrygo. He’d be in midfield. Our idea is to play Vini, Mbappe and Mount as a trio, and it makes us less potent offensively. All of this so we can have an additional centre half for ‘build up’. Well what the feck are we building up to? I’m fed up of these ‘build up’ obsessed coaches who seem to have ‘inverted’ football to the point where they are more concerned with the creativity and technical quality from their goalkeepers and defenders than their forward players. It’s like step one to being progressive is getting a dribbling goalkeeper and centre halves who are great on the ball, however with us, we then forget the rest of the team. We haven’t scored goals for years, and now we’re relying upon one less forward. We will of course be better if our two forwards were better, but we’d still be short a Rodrygo.

 

[JPRouve]

Never claimed they all played together, also admitted they weren’t at their peak, and yet, his squads still scored a lot more goals than our current squad. You literally posted the stats yourself which show this.

14/15 scored a lot more, not the 15/16 if we maintain our goal scoring average we should have the same level of output which was 49 goals. And your point was a difference in quality, not the raw stats and you are wrong on that, the 15/16 squad was very similar to the current one offensively. The difference is that the team was better coached, we were boring beyond belief but the team was very well drilled, they lacked creativity but relied heavily on the system.

 

[Zumbi]

14/15 scored a lot more, not the 15/16 if we maintain our goal scoring average we should have the same level of output which was 49 goals. And your point was a difference in quality, not the raw stats and you are wrong on that, the 15/16 squad was very similar to the current one offensively. The difference is that the team was better coached, we were boring beyond belief but the team was very well drilled, they lacked creativity but relied heavily on the system.

I wasn’t specifically referencing the 15-16 season though was I? I made a specific point about our lack of firepower in the Forest game - a game where we didn’t have Amad available, and ended up playing Maguire up front.

 

[JPRouve]

I wasn’t specifically referencing the 15-16 season though was I? I made a specific point about our lack of firepower in the Forest game - a game where we didn’t have Amad available, and ended up playing Maguire up front.

You’re missing the point. I’m not claiming those attacking players were at their peak or did really well for us. I’m simply pointing out they were better than what we have now.

As a point of reference, Martial, Rashford, Mata and Lingard had 72 goals and assists between them that season. Garnacho, Amad, Zirkzee and Hojlund currently have only 55 between them this season.

Which season is this post referencing specifically?

 

[Zumbi]

I really don't get (not trying to be patronising) your initial point though. I'm saying what LVG had in his 2nd season, which got him sacked largely because we couldn't score goals and played boring football. I just looked at the FA Cup Final - a front line of Fellaini, (young) Rashford, Mata and Martial.

We had better attackers on paper in 2014/15 - but why do you think they all disappeared by the next season? Di Maria was great for his first few games, and was a great player but he downed tools quickly and got benched - he scored 4 goals that season. RVP scored 10 goals in 2014/15. Falcao literally scored 5 goals for us and Chelsea in two seasons in England. Rooney scored 14 goals. As mentioned Welbeck and Hernandez were binned off quickly - which was one of LvG's biggest screw ups.

My initial point was that Amorim lacked attacking options in the Forest game, and that a comparison with LVG’s tenure doesn’t make much sense.

And I’m not sure how cherry picking line ups from the end of LVG’s tenure somehow makes that comparison valid or useful, especially when he’d had transfer windows to address his attacking options and Amorim hasn’t.

 

[Abhinav]

I agree, the build up was good. However, my only problem is that we play with one forward too few. So many times in the first half we won the ball back around the halfway line, but we lacked penetrative targets to hit.

Then there is the make up where when we do have available outlets, they are very often trained defenders, as opposed to being what you would hope are our most dangerous and talented offensive players. And that is an issue with the coach. Why have we constructed a team designed to isolate Patrick Dorgu in attack rather than a quality winger? Dorgu and Dalot will often find themselves in dangerous positions, but they cannot reasonably be expected to produce what their counterparts at other teams in similar positions do. We are getting Dorgu free in positions Brighton are trying to work Mitoma into.

Does Estupiñan, at left back, really offer his team much less offensively than Dorgu at LWB? The system is a problem, it has too few offensive players, both in terms of position and also personnel/make up. Earlier on, everyone just filled in blanks to appease themselves by saying ‘once we get Quenda’ and ‘we know we don’t have a LWB’. Well Quenda isn’t here, and won’t be, and we’ve now seen the hand we have played at LWB. And this is not a hit-piece on Dorgu by any stretch. He is what he is. He’s a LB, and will probably be a very good offensive support at LB. But clearly doesn’t have the talent to play as the primary attacking outlet out there. But again, not many players would, who are not actual top class wingers. And top class wingers don’t play wing back. I said months ago, it’s a position of averageness. People say ‘oooh, he plays real wingers there’ - but Salah will tell you to feck off, and frankly, you wouldn’t want him there anyway. So you either play not very good wingers there, or you play full backs there, invariably. Or you go and get Alphonso Davies and one of the few other unicorn actual top class WB’s. Which cannot be out grand plan!

And the likes of Mason Mount and Bruno are not forwards. They play behind forwards. So this entire system has at least one too few genuine top class forward options. If Mason Mount went to Madrid, he would not be competing with Vini, Mbappé or Rodrygo. He’d be in midfield. Our idea is to play Vini, Mbappe and Mount as a trio, and it makes us less potent offensively. All of this so we can have an additional centre half for ‘build up’. Well what the feck are we building up to? I’m fed up of these ‘build up’ obsessed coaches who seem to have ‘inverted’ football to the point where they are more concerned with the creativity and technical quality from their goalkeepers and defenders than their forward players. It’s like step one to being progressive is getting a dribbling goalkeeper and centre halves who are great on the ball, however with us, we then forget the rest of the team. We haven’t scored goals for years, and now we’re relying upon one less forward. We will of course be better if our two forwards were better, but we’d still be short a Rodrygo.

There are one too many assumptions in your post. Atleast give the guy the summer window to show what he has in mind before dismissing the manager and his plan. Additionally, a lot of your assertions could be countered:
1) Amad could very well play as RWB next season with Dorgu as LWB which would mean we will have the same no of attacking players on the pitch as a back 4 formation
2) Alternatively, we could go after someone like Frimpong who would be a quality attacking threat
3) Sorry, but neither Rodrygo or Salah are joining us at the moment irrespective of the formation. We will be largely attracting young talents such as Dorgu or more experienced second rung footballers. In no shape or form would be able to go for the absolute top players
4) Even in a 4-3-3, you have only 3 attackers on the pitch. The no.10 is usually someone such as Bruno or Mount. If we have Amad starting as a WB, we will have 3 attackers on the pitch with Amad, the CF and one of the 10s as pure attackers

 

[Zumbi]

Which season is this post referencing specifically?

My original comment did not reference a specific season.

Someone else then cherry picked an attacking line up from the end of the 2015-2016 season, which I then posted a reply to. Hope that helps.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Surely you understand that it’s a lot easier to manage teams like wolves than it is to manage us? Amorim probably gets the same or betters that if he took over at wolves. The pressure is miles apart.

I don't see any pressure on Amorim whatsoever. If anything he is getting an easy ride, 13th in the league and that's fine, and whenever he loses it's the player's fault, or the lack of players, not his.

 

[JPRouve]

My original comment did not reference a specific season.

Someone else then cherry picked an attacking line up from the end of the 2015-2016 season, which I then posted a reply to. Hope that helps.

I know that's why I told you that you mixed players that didn't play together and why it makes sense to not treat 14/15 like 15/16. Or not mention players that weren't at the club.

 

[Marwood]

We dominated a team that’s 3rd in the league. With better Strikers than zirkzee and Hojlund we score a couple after 23 attempts.

Technically 23 attempts but how many were actually good chances.

I'd say the two big chances of the game fell to Maguire.

We're fine at getting into positions to create but that last bit is a nightmare for us.

What's telling is the moment we put Maguire up top you suddenly see the urgency and intention to get the ball forward. It takes having a big CB up front to get the team to force the issue.

 

[Eugenius]

My initial point was that Amorim lacked attacking options in the Forest game, and that a comparison with LVG’s tenure doesn’t make much sense.

And I’m not sure how cherry picking line ups from the end of LVG’s tenure somehow makes that comparison valid or useful, especially when he’d had transfer windows to address his attacking options and Amorim hasn’t.

OK fair enough. I personally disagree - I think we look very similar to 2015/16 where I would say both lack(ed) attacking options, although in fairness that was fully LvG's fault for hollowing out the squad.

2014-15 we were better from an attacking POV but we also ended that season basically playing Fellaini ball and dropping RVP, Falcao, Di Maria etc. From memory our best run of performances came with Young, Fellaini and Mata behind Rooney - beating City and Liverpool.