Hard to do pts because of cup ties. xpts is flawed because there are multiple equations to calculate and it’s not based on results.Win % is a weird stat. Why not points or xPts really?
The fans are so focused on the formation, but it’s literally one of the least important criteria in assessing the manager / coach. I’d rate the following as more important, in no particular order:I think, for sober arguments.
1. Amorim might turn to be a good coach.
2. Amorim might not turn into a good coach.
3. With good support we can get back to being a top four team. 65 point team. Winning 20 games then drawing 5 games.
4. Amorim might be the guy, before the main guy.
5. Amorim might be the GUY HIMSELF.
Using Liverpool as an example,
Is Amorim Rogers or is Amorim Klopp?
It can go both side, by football on the pitch it's 40%-60% good to bad direction.
I believe, the decision makers have decided 343 is the way to go. ( i did watch Milan derby and the way Inter played was excellent, if we play like that, then RoI to us fans will be okay. If 343 can be successful in EPL for a period of time, is what has to be seen.)
I repeat I loved Amorim’s 3421 sporting formation but he’s happy to work with players that follow his ever whim, what happens when a World Cup winner like Martinez questions him?Does it have to be one of the other? My guess (and note, it is a guess, not gospel truth) is that he said 'OK I'll come now but it might get worse before it gets better', and they said 'bring it on, something needs to change radically here'. That doesn't mean that they'll be happy to wait forever without seeing much progress, but the fact that he was so open right at the beginning about there being storms ahead almost definitely means that they will be more patient than you would like them to be.
Our press has been poor for years and years. In part because we don't have the players to press well. They lack the tenacity, athleticism. commitment, and tackling ability as well as communication and anticipation. But there has been some improvement since the turn of the year. We pass the ball back and forth at the back a lot because we either aren't making the right kinds of runs, don't have the players at the back to see and execute the pass, or most often... BOTH. But again, there have been some signs of growth in that area as well.Yup, we pass the ball sideways among the back 3/5 but once we try to go forward we often lose the ball after 1-3 passes. And our press is quite poor.
The manager is certainly a major issue, but there are other issues too of course such as recruitment. ETH had a good record before joining us but he set us back several years. Right now at least 80% of our poor form is due to what previous managers and upper management did. This is not a top 5 squad but Ruben most show better form.Our press has been poor for years and years. In part because we don't have the players to press well. They lack the tenacity, athleticism. commitment, and tackling ability as well as communication and anticipation. But there has been some improvement since the turn of the year. We pass the ball back and forth at the back a lot because we either aren't making the right kinds of runs, don't have the players at the back to see and execute the pass, or most often... BOTH. But again, there have been some signs of growth in that area as well.
But I could be wrong. Amorim could be well out of his depth despite his career so far showing signs of him being one of the brightest and most talented managers in the world. If he is out of his depth and gets sacked in the next 18 months then that's... what? 6 or 7 managers in the last decade? Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole, Ragnick, ETH, Amorim. At some point it has to be clear to everyone that the manager isn't the issue.
The evidence of their football decisions so far suggests that they do not think things through actually.Well, I disagree. INEOS aren't stupid, and of course they did think that through. Amorim will last thru next season at least. Heavy investment will be made in the summer transfer window
Completely agree!I think a lot of fans are looking at this from the wrong direction personally. The tactics that this manager uses are not important, not at this stage anyway.
What is of vital importance is that we have a management team that can reset the culture within the club. The evidence that we've accumulated over the last 2-3 months is quite clear. Good enough to play well away at Arsenal, City & Liverpool. Not good enough to see off Palace or Bournemouth or Newcastle at home. All playing largely the same way.
You can often see quite clearly when our players decide to switch it up a gear or two during a game. We look a good side again, but we've just served up an hour of crap. The reason we look ill-prepared for most of our football matched is because the preparation isn't right. Training isn't right. Confidence is shot. The pressure is heavy. Theres a lack of leaders amongst the squad, driving them on. Not just on the pitch. All of the time. Toxic players at the club, not trying for months on end.
Ruben seems to me like he understands all of this, and he probably has a good idea of how to fix it. From his early press comments he is also smart enough to realise that it doesn't happen quickly. He warned us what to expect. Why aren't we listening?
You don't resolve problems like these overnight. We can't keep hiring and firing talented managers and just assume they're all useless. There aren't many examples of great sides being built quickly, but there are countless examples of it taking time. Look in our league right now for some. We have to show some patience here.
How about that you are underestimating Amorim – since every one of your posts about him is negative? I feel that people you say are overestimating him, are drawing upon what he achieved at Sporting.Any chance that you are overestimating Amorim? ETH had a transfer window but had a better start to his United career. I really hope that Amorim can start to show more progress ahead of summer.
'Blind posts of faith'. Have you considered that, perhaps, posters have seen what he did at Sporting, and feel that we might benefit from some of that? How is that blind?? No one wanted Southgate because of the evidence of how he setup his teams up to play. Such a nonsensical post.If his name was Reuben Southgate you wouldn't get these posts of blind faith
As are all of your comments. So we can't comment on potential new players as you've already decided they won't work?It's 100% based on nothing, these players will make up 75/85% of the squad next season and whatever players we sign it's fanciful to say they'll all work out as well
Your lack of patience is admirable. I completely agree that we are incredibly boring to watch. But we are in a transition period. No idea why you expect this to be fixed in a few months??Almost 4 but yeah, just fed up with watching pass it in a fecking horseshoe over and over I thought we'd actually see something by now at first we were at least conceding less but even that's gone by the way side
Do you actually watch our games? Or do you just search for stats that support your opinion?If oles 3 years was mediocrity, what would you call the last 3 months? We sacked Ole when we were 7th, and he finished 3rd and 2nd in his 2 full seasons. What I would give for seasons like those right now.
We weren't even this bad either when we sacked Ole or at his worst spell at the start of his first full season.
The fact that Amorin hasn't yet even been able to make us as good as we were at our worst under ole is really saying something.
No point because you are determined to be blind to it.Can you describe this progress? Thanks.
This is the most delusional take I have ever read on this forum.Does it have to be one of the other? My guess (and note, it is a guess, not gospel truth) is that he said 'OK I'll come now but it might get worse before it gets better', and they said 'bring it on, something needs to change radically here'. That doesn't mean that they'll be happy to wait forever without seeing much progress, but the fact that he was so open right at the beginning about there being storms ahead almost definitely means that they will be more patient than you would like them to be.
This stat shows something and that is.... this stat is not a useful tool to "grade" the quality of football managers. So the stat shows that it is useless. Intriguing.Interesting manager stats comparison after twenty games:.
Manager W D L F A Win %
Solskjaer 15 2 3 42 18 75%
Ten Hag 13 2 5 32 24 65%
Moyes 12 5 3 38 18 60%
Mourinho 11 4 5 33 20 55%
van Gaal 10 6 4 33 23 50%
Rangnick 9 8 3 28 20 45%
Amorim 9 3 8 31 32 45%
Ferguson 8 7 5 25 17 40%
Though the fact that OGS, ETH and Moyes are the top three, and Alex Ferguson right at the bottom, probably suggests more than anything how a manager should be judged at the end of their reign at the club and not so early into it!
What they didn't realize was.. managers are human. You can only deal with so much shit before you give up or be mentally broken. He was at the point where everything that could go wrong had gone wrong, it was the point of no recovery. Ineos thinks the robot will just restart and start from fresh again with all his past capabilities. So naiveIts funny because alot of people before Ten Hag got sacked, including me were saying the structure is a problem, give him a better structure, lack of injuries and see what he does.
INEOS clearly thought the same and gave him a chance under a new direction but he clearly was not good enough and was rightly sacked.
They obviously had looked at managers and Amorim was the best choice for them.
Formation or tactics are very important. Let nobody cheat you.The fans are so focused on the formation, but it’s literally one of the least important criteria in assessing the manager / coach. I’d rate the following as more important, in no particular order:
Communication
Man Management
Assessment of Talent
Organizational skills
Pre match preparation
Training management
Tactical analysis
Team selection
Substitutions
Transfers
Scouting
Youth team development and promotion
Player development
PR skills
Board / executives management
There’s probably more. Seriously, formation is not the issue.
Your example kind of proved his point that formation isn't the key.Formation or tactics are very important. Let nobody cheat you.
This is the blueprint of the manager. Ideas of a manager. Execution of the managers idea. All this is what = to tactics
So if tactics are not important, football can be played without a manager.
Thats why, a team signs Klopp they become a pressing team almost immediately. Leave alone winning titles. But you can tell the team tactics immediately Klopp takes over.
Poor tactics = Poor coach
As I said in my other post, the difference is that Amorim has already shown that it doesn't matter how good (or not) you are, or think you are, it's his way or the highway.Really don't see how we can make such confident claims about Amorim e.g. no messing around from Amorim, not indulging players. He's been here 4 months and has only had a few years as a manager. Half of what you wrote you could have written 6 months into Ten Hag's reign, replacing Amorim with Ten Hag and replacing Ten Hag with Ole.
There is a chance by sticking to the principles we will eventually get better, there is also just as likely the chance that the tactics are too boring, negative, and get found out in a better league. If the later we will be saying his lack of flexibility and stubborness is what will have eventually got him the sack. At this point in time he is doing a pretty poor job based on already low expectations. I personally think this season's squad is better than the injury plagued one from last season so they shouldn't be performingas badly as they are, lets see how he finishes the season.
Ole went through several long runs of unbeaten form during his time at United. He certainly did not peak early at all. ETH's form ended after the League Cup final and even before that their were signs of it running out of steam. Casemiro and Rashford were vital to ETH in his first 3/4months at United.
Hard to do pts because of cup ties. xpts is flawed because there are multiple equations to calculate and it’s not based on results.
No perfect measure, but both Pep and Klopp have good numbers on win%, same with Ancelotti. SAF was roughly 60% with United. He always looked for draws away in Europe, maybe that affected his numbers. My only complaint of him was that he wasn’t attacking enough in Europe, maybe be should have won another couple CLs.
Exactly this, it was a fairly short period of good form, though he didn't rotate at all including in Caraboa cup which was one of the reasons he won it. After that it was shades of poor. He seemed to have no idea how to move from a defensive, reactive style to a more proactive one. The management above who indulged him with his pet signings though were even more culpable.And if we're honest it was only a few months between September to February where we looked a decent team under Ten Hag. We spent the majority of the next 18 months being absolute dogshit. Much of our current problems I believe can be traced back to the club letting the Ten Hag experiment carry on and fester for far too long. I sincerely hope a lesson has been learned on that front.
The other issue Fergie had was the limit on the number of foreign players we could play. Hence playing games with Cantona on the bench, for example.Interesting a lot of people over the years have put Fergie not winning more Champions Leagues down to him being too attacking in Europe and not being pragmatic enough at times. At least between 93 to about 05. Things changed on that front after the arrival of Queiroz.
Completely agree!
How about that you are underestimating Amorim – since every one of your posts about him is negative? I feel that people you say are overestimating him, are drawing upon what he achieved at Sporting.
'Blind posts of faith'. Have you considered that, perhaps, posters have seen what he did at Sporting, and feel that we might benefit from some of that? How is that blind?? No one wanted Southgate because of the evidence of how he setup his teams up to play. Such a nonsensical post.
As are all of your comments. So we can't comment on potential new players as you've already decided they won't work?
Your lack of patience is admirable. I completely agree that we are incredibly boring to watch. But we are in a transition period. No idea why you expect this to be fixed in a few months??
Do you actually watch our games? Or do you just search for stats that support your opinion?
As for the bolded, it's really not. Amorim was clear that it would get worse before it gets better. I don't know ANY United fans who would say they were happy with the player culture within the club, and the effort that they put forth on match days.
How much time have you afforded Amorim compared to previous managers?
No point because you are determined to be blind to it.
Our club needs a huge change of culture in so many aspects. I believe Amorim has identified these and is addressing these.
Do you feel he should have kept Rashford?
The other issue Fergie had was the limit on the number of foreign players we could play. Hence playing games with Cantona on the bench, for example.
Thanks! So let me ask you this - why would he have immediately, in multiple interviews, said pretty much that exact same thing? Do you think he said lots of things in his job interview in order to get the job and then immediately did an hour long interview with Gary Nev for SKY where he said the complete opposite? How would that have gone down with the club? Why would the club have brought him in, knowing how wedded to a change of formation he is, sat and listened as he told anyone who would listen how this is the only way he will play, listened as he repeatedly said things will be rocky for some time, and supported him as he edged Marcus Rashford out of the club, if they weren't in favour of radical change?This is the most delusional take I have ever read on this forum.
Of all the things that have ever happened in human history, this is the least likely thing that has ever happened.
The first line is again simply a statement that you have plucked out of thin air, but even if I take it at face value I would ask you - do you not think that the club needs 5 or 6 players with 'the high energy work ethic needed and the elite mentality to play for a club like United'? Any manager would need that to turn this squad into world beaters, and it's not going to happen in one summer - whoever the manager is. And in what way do they need to be 'specialists'? Yes we might need another wingback, but other than that what are these specialist positions that only Amorim requires?The only way Ruben succeeds is if the club buy him 5/6 specialists players for his system who have the high energy work ethic needed and the elite mentality to play for a club like United.
If we bought M Ghuei or J Branthwaite, Ederson, A Gomes, T Dybling, M Cunha,
G Quenda and V Osimhen or V Gykores the. We would be top 4 challengers under Ruben but wining the league, I want what Berrada and Brailsford are smoking with ‘Mission 21’
We bought him in to implement his system. It does require some specific roles that we have not got the right players for (Drogu is a good start) – so I think it's impossible to say his system has not shown enough promise, yet at the same time acknowledging we need some different payers to play it. Having effective wingbacks is vital to his system – and having them will make a huge difference in my opinion. As would a competent striker, but he only has the players that he inherited.Every new manager it's the same story, 'culture reset' 'rebuild' blah blah blah. Excuse after excuses.
Ultimately it's too early to compleatly judge Amorin. But the first three months have been concerning to put it lightly. And this is the kicker, he is very much a system manager have you seen enough to convince youwe should back him in the summer to buy players that will fit his somewhat unique system that so far at least has shown very little promise?
If it doesn't work out, than what? we sack him and our left with yet another culture reset and rebuild. With players designed to fit a very rigid system that probably won't suit the next manager.
Right now it would be a big gamble, because no matter how much we wish for it Amorin may simply not be able to hack the PL right now and no amount of giving him time will solve that.
I would love to be wrong about it, but from what I have seen so far I'm not convinced. We're probably slightly lucky to have picked up as many results as we have, and that is saying something.
Every new manager it's the same story, 'culture reset' 'rebuild' blah blah blah. Excuse after excuses.
Ultimately it's too early to compleatly judge Amorin. But the first three months have been concerning to put it lightly. And this is the kicker, he is very much a system manager have you seen enough to convince youwe should back him in the summer to buy players that will fit his somewhat unique system that so far at least has shown very little promise?
If it doesn't work out, than what? we sack him and our left with yet another culture reset and rebuild. With players designed to fit a very rigid system that probably won't suit the next manager.
Right now it would be a big gamble, because no matter how much we wish for it Amorin may simply not be able to hack the PL right now and no amount of giving him time will solve that.
I would love to be wrong about it, but from what I have seen so far I'm not convinced. We're probably slightly lucky to have picked up as many results as we have, and that is saying something.
I see this all the time as we are just signing system players.Every new manager it's the same story, 'culture reset' 'rebuild' blah blah blah. Excuse after excuses.
Ultimately it's too early to compleatly judge Amorin. But the first three months have been concerning to put it lightly. And this is the kicker, he is very much a system manager have you seen enough to convince youwe should back him in the summer to buy players that will fit his somewhat unique system that so far at least has shown very little promise?
If it doesn't work out, than what? we sack him and our left with yet another culture reset and rebuild. With players designed to fit a very rigid system that probably won't suit the next manager.
Right now it would be a big gamble, because no matter how much we wish for it Amorin may simply not be able to hack the PL right now and no amount of giving him time will solve that.
I would love to be wrong about it, but from what I have seen so far I'm not convinced. We're probably slightly lucky to have picked up as many results as we have, and that is saying something.
The nonsense we are only signing 3-4-3 players needs to stop, quality players can play multiple systems, crap players can't play one.
The fans are so focused on the formation, but it’s literally one of the least important criteria in assessing the manager / coach. I’d rate the following as more important, in no particular order:
Communication
Man Management
Assessment of Talent
Organizational skills
Pre match preparation
Training management
Tactical analysis
Team selection
Substitutions
Transfers
Scouting
Youth team development and promotion
Player development
PR skills
Board / executives management
There’s probably more. Seriously, formation is not the issue.
Every time he has more time to train and our players are rested, we seem to do significantly better. I hope that this possible trend continues vs Spurs.
He's 3 months into the job! It's not a question of believing he cannot fail, it's a question of saying 'it's far too early to say and he deserves a chance'. Writing someone off after 3 months is ridiculous.And other good managers have failed in the PL he isn't immune to it yet some act like if we back him he cannot fail well we all probably thought that at different times under the old managers at points to
