Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[Marwood]

This is not a good stat at all

Of all the things to criticise him for this isn't one of them. Teams in the bottom seven in that table are in the top seven in the league.

So what's it proving exactly?

 

[careca07]

If we look at last summer;
Mazroui was a minor upgrade on AWB because AWB has got more PL goals and assists this season and Mazroui is more of a defensive Full back than attacking.
MDL- was not an upgrade on Varane when he played, but he’s far less injured.
Lenny Yoro - was clearly an upgrade on Willy Kambwala
Joshua Zirkzee - Is not yet half the player a crippled Martial was but he has potential and at least he’s fit.
Manuel Ugarte - is a slight upgrade on Sofran Amrabat
Patrick Dorgu - will be a huge upgrade on Mallacia

The real question is Wilcox an upgrade on Ashworth and is Amorim an upgrade on ETH?

Right now you’d say they are all as bad as each other and maybe the 6 players we brought in deserve better from a club like ours.

I would say Amorim is an upgrade on ETH solely on the virtue that he isn't going to blow through over half a billion pounds via his own agent in buying either poor Dutch players or poor ones who played for Ajax at some point.

As you suggest I think Ashworth is the interesting one, it would be fascinating to know what the story is there, if only he hadn't had to sign an NDA. It may well be that he was the one who suggested giving ETH a new contract and backed up the £200m summer signings, if so then they were right to fire him fast. If it was the opposite, and those were INEOS decisions that he didn't agree with and got fired due to it, then we are in even bigger trouble than I thought. And we are in a hell of a lot of trouble.

 

[Acquire Me]

If we look at last summer;
Mazroui was a minor upgrade on AWB because AWB has got more PL goals and assists this season and Mazroui is more of a defensive Full back than attacking.
MDL- was not an upgrade on Varane when he played, but he’s far less injured.
Lenny Yoro - was clearly an upgrade on Willy Kambwala
Joshua Zirkzee - Is not yet half the player a crippled Martial was but he has potential and at least he’s fit.
Manuel Ugarte - is a slight upgrade on Sofran Amrabat
Patrick Dorgu - will be a huge upgrade on Mallacia

The real question is Wilcox an upgrade on Ashworth and is Amorim an upgrade on ETH?

Right now you’d say they are all as bad as each other and maybe the 6 players we brought in deserve better from a club like ours.

Utarte is a huge upgrade on Amrabat. The rest is pretty accurate on the players.

Amorim is much better than EtH.

 

[Leftback99]

If we look at last summer;
Mazroui was a minor upgrade on AWB because AWB has got more PL goals and assists this season and Mazroui is more of a defensive Full back than attacking.
MDL- was not an upgrade on Varane when he played, but he’s far less injured.
Lenny Yoro - was clearly an upgrade on Willy Kambwala
Joshua Zirkzee - Is not yet half the player a crippled Martial was but he has potential and at least he’s fit.
Manuel Ugarte - is a slight upgrade on Sofran Amrabat
Patrick Dorgu - will be a huge upgrade on Mallacia

The real question is Wilcox an upgrade on Ashworth and is Amorim an upgrade on ETH?

Right now you’d say they are all as bad as each other and maybe the 6 players we brought in deserve better from a club like ours.

Yep it barely turned the dial on the first XI at all so we've just continued with the same level of performance. I could see it pre season.

The 6 players need to prove why we bought them, they don't 'deserve' anything.

We need a Striker, at least one CM, LWB/RWB who go straight into the first XI and improve it this summer.

The sooner we get funds spent making a difference to the first XI instead of on the bench, injured or loaned playing for other clubs the sooner things can turn around.

 

[Silverman]

I'm fully backing him. He's at the start of a nearly impossible job. He'll get the squad the way he wants it in the summer.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Of all the things to criticise him for this isn't one of them. Teams in the bottom seven in that table are in the top seven in the league.

So what's it proving exactly?

Well that's the point though, no one is saying that tinkering is the right way to go but for those other teams there's no reason to change while we have lost so many games this season & are 13th so it's crazy to just keep playing the same way all the time

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Of all the things to criticise him for this isn't one of them. Teams in the bottom seven in that table are in the top seven in the league.

So what's it proving exactly?

That we're acting like a well-settled side that needs little to no alternative approaches, while the actual performances suggest otherwise?

The tweet is accurate up to a point, but also wants to a "gotcha" piece that feeds on an ongoing narrative (created by Amorim himself, TBF). It works the way it wants to, only if you look at Forest and United and wilfully disregard all the rest.

There's enough "proof" in there that most sides, who find themselves struggling (and justifiably choose to try different things), continue to do so despite all the tinkering.

 

[Marwood]

Well that's the point though, no one is saying that tinkering is the right way to go but for those other teams there's no reason to change while we have lost so many games this season & are 13th so it's crazy to just keep playing the same way all the time

That we're acting like a well-settled side that needs little to no alternative approaches, while the actual performances suggest otherwise?

The tweet is both accurate and a "gotcha" piece that feeds on an ongoing narrative (created by Amorim himself, TBF). It works the way it wants to, only if you look at Forest and United and wilfully disregard all the rest.

There's enough "proof" in there that most sides, who find themselves struggling (and justifiably choose to try different things), continue to do so despite all the tinkering.

But both of you are making the massive assumption that changing formations would equate to better results. Or that formation change should just automatically be a reaction to bad results.

Using a table that shows generally the better teams change less.

 

[deef]

panic sack him already and restart the circle so we can start moaning about a new guy… its geting boring

 

[Toshey]

panic sack him already and restart the circle so we can start moaning about a new guy… its geting boring

New guy comes in, reverts to whatever "works": "See? A good manager gets instant results!"

A few weeks later, we suck again: "It was a new manager's bounce, honeymoon is over!"

A few months later: "At least Amorim was trying to implement his style, don't know what this guy is trying to achieve!"

Final decision: "Sack the fraud!"

Rinse and repeat.

 

[redDNA]

People saying that we are playing 343. We are actually starting games with 5221,
and we are still not defensively solid, he should start at least one of wingers as one of the WBs.

Even the defensive Conte used Victor Moses as a wingback.

 

[JPRouve]

People saying that we are playing 343. We are actually starting games with 5221,
and we are still not defensively solid, he should start at least one of wingers as one of the WBs.

Even the defensive Conte used Victor Moses as a wingback.

It's a byproduct of suboptimal positioning and one of the known risks of formations with wingbacks. If the opposition target it properly they can turn your back 3 into a permanent back 5.

 

[VP89]

People saying that we are playing 343. We are actually starting games with 5221,
and we are still not defensively solid, he should start at least one of wingers as one of the WBs.

Even the defensive Conte used Victor Moses as a wingback.

Correct - I'm unsure what Amorim's principles are from Sporting but I'd wager it's not to be this blunt and passive in his play.

We've praised him for not compromising and sticking to his beliefs, and cited Ten Hag as an example of someone who did. But they're just doing the same thing really - Ten Hag had a conservative variation of the 433 in his first year and Amorim is showing a conservative approach to his 343. Amorim is clearly adapting his principles around the players he has available, and I don't think that's a bad thing but I do think he's been flawed in the approach to tinkering. His consistent belief that attackers adapt slower to a wingback role than defenders for example, is one that I don't fully understand after seeing how bad Dalot/Maz were there.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

This is not a good stat at all

Are these stats on wyscout?

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

There was a period around the hour mark against Leicester where we were down 1-0 and for like
2-3 minutes Leicester were pinging the ball around in midfield with no united player within 10 feet of the ball. It was just so embarrassing to watch and even the commentator spoke about how broken our press was.

We are dropping 5 people back and then ending up with opposition playing rings around our 5 other players. I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether it's formation or performance but it is embarrassing to watch bottom of the table clubs come to OT and out play us.

 

[nickm]

There was a period around the hour mark against Leicester where we were down 1-0 and for like
2-3 minutes Leicester were pinging the ball around in midfield with no united player within 10 feet of the ball. It was just so embarrassing to watch and even the commentator spoke about how broken our press was.

We are dropping 5 people back and then ending up with opposition playing rings around our 5 other players. I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether it's formation or performance but it is embarrassing to watch bottom of the table clubs come to OT and out play us.

We play a lot better away than home, and I think there is something about our home support that is unsettling the players and causing them to play over cautiously which disrupts the system. We saw something similar with England at Wembley for a while.

 

[The Firestarter]

We play a lot better away than home, and I think there is something about our home support that is unsettling the players and causing them to play over cautiously which disrupts the system. We saw something similar with England at Wembley for a while.

Blame the crowd now?

 

[Red in STL]

That is an insane post for 3 am in the morning.

Check his location

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

United have conceded 22 goals in 13 league matches under Amorim. That's 1.69 GA/90. Under Ten Hag they had conceded 11 in 9 league matches, which is 1.22 GA/90, and last season they conceded 58 goals in 38 matches which is 1.52 GA/90.

Not good. Worrying stats.

 

[bringbackbebe]

There was a period around the hour mark against Leicester where we were down 1-0 and for like
2-3 minutes Leicester were pinging the ball around in midfield with no united player within 10 feet of the ball. It was just so embarrassing to watch and even the commentator spoke about how broken our press was.

We are dropping 5 people back and then ending up with opposition playing rings around our 5 other players. I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether it's formation or performance but it is embarrassing to watch bottom of the table clubs come to OT and out play us.

That bit was truly embarrassing. Either Amorim doesn't have a clue what he's up to or the players aren't understanding what Amorim's trying to convey or there isn't enough training time. The worst part is, the more training time we seem to get, the worse we seem to play (except maybe for that Liverpool match). I'm sure he'll be given a pre-season and a summer window to sort these out but for hecks sake, something needs to be done to end this horror show we're in.

 

[nickm]

Blame the crowd now?

Explaining ain't blaming.

 

[The Firestarter]

Explaining ain't blaming.

Ridiculous notion whatever way you put it.

 

[Judas]

Ridiculous notion whatever way you put it.

But we do currently look a lot more uncomfortable at home, for whatever reason. Maybe because we’re expected to play on the front foot, which we’re clearly struggling with.

 

[The Firestarter]

But we do currently look a lot more uncomfortable at home, for whatever reason. Maybe because we’re expected to play on the front foot, which we’re clearly struggling with.

Yeah that's a lot more reasonable explanation and my top of the list of reasons as well.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

But both of you are making the massive assumption that changing formations would equate to better results. Or that formation change should just automatically be a reaction to bad results.

Using a table that shows generally the better teams change less.

Sorry, i was typing in a haste and i didn't word it properly. I agree with you. That's why i mentioned that it starts by making a sensible point (if something's wrong, see what alterations can be made to improve it), but then it wants to be this "gotcha" moment by focusing on Forest and United. But if you have a look at the teams that have tinkered their tactics the most, most of them are still in trouble.

 

[wolvored]

Why not? Truth be told the only difference between today and 15 years ago is that we had a great manager and we have had one since. That's the difference, Fenway weren't doing a good job until Klopp appeared.

Liverpool have a better squad that’s why

 

[The Firestarter]

Why not? Truth be told the only difference between today and 15 years ago is that we had a great manager and we have had one since. That's the difference, Fenway weren't doing a good job until Klopp appeared.

Their transfer committee actually knows what they are doing. We've never had that.

 

[Woziak]

Utarte is a huge upgrade on Amrabat. The rest is pretty accurate on the players.

Amorim is much better than EtH.

Yet neither amrabat or Ugarte get you 6/7 goals and 5/6 assists of Prime Casemiro, Rice or Rhodri ?

 

[Woziak]

Yep it barely turned the dial on the first XI at all so we've just continued with the same level of performance. I could see it pre season.

The 6 players need to prove why we bought them, they don't 'deserve' anything.

We need a Striker, at least one CM, LWB/RWB who go straight into the first XI and improve it this summer.

The sooner we get funds spent making a difference to the first XI instead of on the bench, injured or loaned playing for other clubs the sooner things can turn around.

We need a whole new front three with Amad best position right wing back and Garnaucho coming from the bench against tired legs!

 

[Redstain]

We play a lot better away than home, and I think there is something about our home support that is unsettling the players and causing them to play over cautiously which disrupts the system. We saw something similar with England at Wembley for a while.

Amorim did mention that the players are struggling likely due to the pressure / nerves at home games. I think it goes a little further however, away from home the expectation is for the opposition to be on the front foot so the 5 at the back system yields more productivity in-between periods throughout the game.

On the other hand, when playing at OT the impetus is on United to break down defences and that same shape somewhat becomes a liability with the wrong personnel in the wider defensive / attacking positions. There are other issues throughout the midfield and linking to the attack.

I actually reckon that if Amorim goes gung ho with some reservations to mitigate the counter attack, the team would have a better record in home games. He keeps making attacking changes throughout the game when the team concedes that benefits the balance of play. Home games should start more offensive minded and resume the Maz / Dalot wingbacks for away fixtures where the opposition is competitive.

 

[nickm]

Ridiculous notion whatever way you put it.

Tell that to Zirkzee.

 

[Cheimoon]

That is an insane post for 3 am in the morning.

It wasn't 3 am in my timezone; but insane in what we way?

 

[JPRouve]

Their transfer committee actually knows what they are doing. We've never had that.

Now it somewhat does but before Klopp, the same people that succeeded under Klopp were signing the likes of Carroll, Origi, Allen, Lovren, Markovic, Sakho and bunch of other dross.

Liverpool have a better squad that’s why

But they didn't before Klopp, that's the point.

 

[Woziak]

Not good. Worrying stats.

This is my point he’s not sticking to his principles of an attacking compact 3421, instead he’s playing 5221 low block with loads of space to play round a dysfunctional narrow Square midfield and at old Trafford which is one of the biggest pitches in the league, his set up is naive at best!

The only time we look fair to middling is when this system Morphs into a 3322 where Amad is at RWB, Zirkzee/Mainoo Bruno play behind wide Garnaucho and Hojlund as an almost wide right 9, it’s truly baffling and there are so many holes in his current system which is probably why we are conceding nearly 2 goals per game.

Then you have a truly terrible Goal Keeper who just looks completely incompetent to be a league one goal keeper let alone Man United GK.

Amorim has issues with the squad but he doesn’t have enough credits in his managerial career to say that he’ll never change his system?

 

[stevoc]

It’s not though is it… I know workplaces in my industry that were toxic shitholes 15 years ago and are still toxic shitholes now - and guess what? Very few if any of the same people work there.

Culture is contagious and sustains itself, especially when it’s the same figureheads in place.

There is a way through it but it involves rapid and deep change. We’ve never been able to make change happen quickly enough as a club to resolve it.

Ineos acting as a strong buffer between the football staff and the Glazers, and showing a reasonably strong degree of resolve in their approach helps. They’re rooting out the players on high wages taking the piss and showing a heavy degree of backing to the manager.

Amorim is taking the right steps too but they’re not so different from Ten Hag, and his revolution is severely hampered by the poor results.

What like changing the entire ownership structure, everyone running the football side of the club, the manager and entire coaching staff and 80% of the players all within 18-24 months between 2022-24?

Not sure it can be done any quicker than that.

 

[stevoc]

That culture is set by the managers and it's particularly true in sport. Our point is that it's wrong to suggest that the cultural issue is due to players and that gutting the squad is the solution while expecting nothing from the managers.

Bingo

 

[GreatDane]

Wishful thinking at best

Life's too short to be pessimistic all the time.

 

[ForeverRed1]

It looks like he’ll continue being a massive disappoitment. He gets a free pass by many due to his looks, charisma and record in Portugal but had it been a southgate he wouldve been heavily criticized.


I’m sure we probably regret getting him too. Oh what I would do to have a class manager but I think we’re stuck with this guy for a time being unfortunately.

You got to give him next season atleast before writing him off!

 

[ForeverRed1]

Utarte is a huge upgrade on Amrabat. The rest is pretty accurate on the players.

Amorim is much better than EtH.

You can’t say that yet.

We’re currently playing terribly and languishing in 13th. In 2 seasons if we’re playing good football, competitive and have won a couple trophies then you can say he is better.

 

[Woziak]

People saying that we are playing 343. We are actually starting games with 5221,
and we are still not defensively solid, he should start at least one of wingers as one of the WBs.

Even the defensive Conte used Victor Moses as a wingback.

Someone who gets it yes that’s right it’s 5221 but what makes it worse are the following;

1. Play Maguire you drop your back 5 naturally 15 yards deeper than MDL or LY as the CB, however Harry leadership and passing from the back is currently better than the other two and without Shaw and Martinez, he’s needed.
2. Mazraoui can only play RCB or maybe LCB in this system, playing Him and Dalot at wing back completely destroys your attacking intent.
3 Because our 5 Man defence drops so deep it means that the 4 man Box midfield are having to try and manoeuvre the ball through narrow passing lanes in the centre of the pitch, we try and push up as a team and then we give the ball away and we are easy to counter, Ruben’s high risk system needs the following to work in the English PL ;

Goal Keeper - Must be calm, physically imposing, decent with his feet but most importantly a great shop stopper
We should go get D De Gea or J Oblak back for 2/3 seasons until Ely Harrison matures or go get James Trafford but Onana must go this summer.

Dominant CB - Must be fast, physically imposing, good on the ball and read the game well we should be looking at Diomende, Ghuei, Bastoni or J Branthwaite

Left Wing Back - Go get Antony Robinson for £30/36m, he’s a leader as well, PL experienced and then Amorim doesn’t need another 17 year old from Portugal as Dorgu, Dalot and Amad can play right wing back and Dorgu, Robinson and at a push Dalot at left wing back

Centre Midfield - We need a controller, playmaker whose physical and good on the ball., this is simple go get Douglas Luis or Ederson, next to Collyer or Ugarte one of these two would be great plus Jack Moorehouse and Jack Fletcher are real talents coming through with Dan Gore.

Left 10/SS - We need a clever inside striker that is PL proven and can create, Cunha or Nkunku are the right profile but even Morgan Rigers or M Gibbs white would be fantastic business.

Centre Forward - We need a fast mobile, physical goal scorer aged 26 to 27, we must buy Osimhen or Gykores.

This is what is needed to give Amorim no excuses and unfortunately this would cost £300m minus player sales that we make.

It’s probably a £200m net investment and I don’t see INEOS doing that especially without European football.