We have tried 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 for more than a decade with no real success to show for it. We have no striker that can score a goal, we have one half decent 10 in Amad. That’s it. We need to fix the squad. The players passing is terrible, and has been for a decade, at least he is trying to fix that rather than playing counter attack football only.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
I'd say this is precisely why we've wasted 1.5 billion on players post SAF and arguably the biggest or one of the biggest things that have held us back outside of being owned by the Glazers.
Right up to Ten Hag we've been trying to replace Fergie and throwing all our eggs into one expensive basket after another. Not every new manager needs time and money to "make the team his".
It's not unreasonable to ask a football manager to take a group of players and expect him to, well manage them.
You would've sacked SAF after his 1st season with this thinking.
It is far too early to tell with RA, he needs at least a summer window and a full pre season.
So unless he gets a new xi we'll pretty much be playing like this, since he ain't going to change his ways.
I'd say 3 months is a fair time for any manager to set up his team up and running. I'm not even talking about winning, just you know... Getting them visibly playing his football.
We literally have nothing to play and i dont mind losing points, but the way we play leaves me worried
Managers got found out pretty quick in EPL, even the mighty Pep and Jose got found out eventually. Pep stays ahead with his contant tweaks and good players, while Jose god bless him has his number written on every team speed dials.
If he can't find the magic formula soon enough chances are he aint gonna find it next season.
I'd say 3 months is a fair time for any manager to set up his team up and running. I'm not even talking about winning, just you know... Getting them visibly playing his football.
We literally have nothing to play and i dont mind losing points, but the way we play leaves me worried
Managers got found out pretty quick in EPL, even the mighty Pep and Jose got found out eventually. Pep stays ahead with his contant tweaks and good players, while Jose god bless him has his number written on every team speed dials.
If he can't find the magic formula soon enough chances are he aint gonna find it next season.
No, the remblance is just that they are both young and Portuguese.
That Chelsea team won double two seasons before, but they were an aging team. Ancelotti also had problems in his second season.
So AVB tried to
What makes you so sure that in academy everything is so smooth?
Especially since there is a clear fallacy at play. When you sign a player from an other club, you aren't signing "your own player", you are signing someone that was presumabling good for someone else and/or with a completely different set of players around him, that new signing is in the exact same situations than the players the manager joined, he still has to coach the player to his own methods and learn about the player's flaws, tendencies and qualities. Now why exactly people think that the current players are necessarily more difficult to manage for the manager than any future signing? People keep repeating that same faulty logic, a manager that doesn't show you the ability to adapt to his current player or can't coach them up isn't going to do anything with new signing unless you literally swap your squad with the squad that the manager just left.
While this is concerning to be fair wouldn’t it be taking Ten Hags games into account also?
The thing about Amorim and his insistence on rigidly sticking to 343 that has me puzzled is.
He says he had to implement it right away mid-season so the players get used to it. OK fair enough I see the logic in that. But more than once when asked why thinks the performances and results have been so bad. He puts it down to the low number of training sessions we're afforded between a hectic schedule not allowing the players to get used to his formation.
But surely he would have known this would be the case before making the decision to switch. Maybe he underestimated how difficult it would be to take over a struggling team, low on confidence and ask them to learn a new system in arguably the most competitive league on the planet.
Remember, each position higher in the league is worth 3.1m. 2 league positions wipes out the money saved for the entire Rashford loan. 10 league positions and it’s doubling the already expensive cost incurred in sacking ETH and getting in Amorim.
And that’s ignoring the far more difficult to define costs off reduction in confidence of some players, reduction in attractiveness to players at other clubs.
I think there’s short memories on how poor we looked in previous formations. Neville even said in the podcast he does that he thinks Ten Hag should switch to 3ATB. I’ve not listened to what he’s had to say recently but I’m guessing he’s now criticising the 3ATB?
No surprises there. We now hire the most tactically rigid and inflexible managers.
Indeed. Its baffling the amount of "these players are toxic", "these players have got numerous managers sacked" rants we are still seeing. You still have people harping back to Rangnicks "open heart surgery" quote as if it hasn't already happened.
I would have thought Ten Hag bringing virtually a new squad would have been the end of it but it seems some fans don't actually pay attention to the make up of the squad.
The new manager is struggling to get his players to play to any sort of decent level yet for some this is automatically 100% down to the players. As if there is some sort of toxic culture that persists through multiple players/squads under different managers and coaching staff. That leads every player the minute he first walks into Carrington making it his lifes goal to make things difficult for his manager and try his best to get them sacked.
It's utter nonsense.
I don’t think there’s a toxic culture these days, but I do firmly think the level of the squad is several levels below the required standard.
If the required standard is Top 4 then absolutely, if it's comfortably top half then no the squad isn't several levels below required standard. We have an EL squad performing like a relegation contender.
It’s not though is it… I know workplaces in my industry that were toxic shitholes 15 years ago and are still toxic shitholes now - and guess what? Very few if any of the same people work there.
Culture is contagious and sustains itself, especially when it’s the same figureheads in place.
There is a way through it but it involves rapid and deep change. We’ve never been able to make change happen quickly enough as a club to resolve it.
Ineos acting as a strong buffer between the football staff and the Glazers, and showing a reasonably strong degree of resolve in their approach helps. They’re rooting out the players on high wages taking the piss and showing a heavy degree of backing to the manager.
Amorim is taking the right steps too but they’re not so different from Ten Hag, and his revolution is severely hampered by the poor results.
True, I’m not disagreeing. Even this lot should be better than what we’re currently being treated to.
I have no evidence of anything other than the managers we've been speaking to and linked with in between managers, Inzaghi being one of them. But I'm glad we've arrived at the point where anything anyone says is guessing, we should all wait for Sir Jim to start posting before we have any more discussions around the club direction.
That culture is set by the managers and it's particularly true in sport. Our point is that it's wrong to suggest that the cultural issue is due to players and that gutting the squad is the solution while expecting nothing from the managers.
I get the point is: United bottom - bad, but you've got the 2nd and 3rd 'best' placed teams in that table are below United and one is rock bottom of the table with 9 points. Look at where Liverpool and Arsenal are also?
That makes perfect sense. The best teams in the league aren't in as much need of tweaking things during games. If we were performing at that level being at the bottom would be predictable.
I watch the academy regularly and it looks like some of these young players are losing hope of ever making it to the full team which is simply crazy when you think how bad we’ve been in the last two years!
Like ETH he’s being rigid to the detriment of the team and for no benefit. There’s no harm done switching to a back 4 at times for the sake of getting performance.
At the end of the day the 343 is not the real issue, it’s the snails pace passing, huge gaps between players and lack of movement that’s killing the team. His biggest failing is not changing any of that in his time here.
The club has wasted 50 million pounds, because I can’t see what use carrington is serving the team, no training goes on there clearly. What’s so complicated about amorims system anyway?
At the end of the day the 343 is not the real issue, it’s the snails pace passing, huge gaps between players and lack of movement that’s killing the team. His biggest failing is not changing any of that in his time here.
The club has wasted 50 million pounds, because I can’t see what use carrington is serving the team, no training goes on there clearly. What’s so complicated about amorims system anyway?
It does seem that a lot of the big hopes are being fast tracked from the U18s. You are right in thinking that of some of the academy though.
i don't see why we dont do what city do with their City Group project. This guarantees an outlet for players on loan allowing you to progress more players more quickly. In these days of PSR and the benefits of selling academy players it would seem a no brainer.
It’s not right now as Amorim and more importantly INEOS are not showing a path to first team when we’ve had the worst first team in ages.
Sir Jim after the Under 18’s win the domestic treble last year had a rant in the media about how untidy the training complex was and how badly the youth team had left it, after celebrating. I suggest you speak to local Mancunians of which I’m not but I live in the area and the rumours of Practucally most of the staff left at old Trafford hate and despise the INEOS regime, more so than even the Glazers.
Sir Jim and Sir David are simply trying to run our beloved football club like a business they’ve just taking out of administration and are looking to strip the assets and make some of his cash back, only time will tell but so far they’ve been beyond dreadful in running this club or running any other football club!
I think the obvious thing is that when you are doing well and not trailing much you don't need to mess around with formations. We on the other hand are in 13th and have constantly trailed in games
We say this every year and still spend £100 million- £200 million.
I’d bet my mortgage that we will be one of the top spenders again this summer. I just hope it’s not all on players that are specific to the rigid system this manager is wedded too.
As long as they are good players (which we lack) for realistic fees and wages, the system is irrelevant.
They have to be clear upgrades to the first XI unlike last summer.
He’s not gonna call him shit, is he.
But is he comfortable with a back 4? Also why should we move to a back 4? There are other ways to play with a back 3 that bring different dynamics, over the past weeks I have thought about the attractive organizations that have been used and are somewhat flexible. You have Bielsa's 3331, which relies on a bottom six of grafters and top 4 of creators/scorers. There is also Ajax/Barcelona 343 diamond. I would love to see these teams a handful of times each.
-------------------------Hojlund
Garnacho-----------Bruno-------Amad
---Mainoo---------Ugarte------Dorgu
---------Yoro-----De Ligt-----Mazraoui
Collyer, Casemiro, Dalot would be option that I would like to see in that middle line for Bielsa that line is meant to plug holes, that's their role, they are supposed to be reactive and not necessarily reactive which is convenient if you have players that aren't necessarily smart. Just run and tackle.
The other option which has always baffled me because it looks so complicated is the dutch version of 343. I put Martinez in spite of the injury because in my mind he fits perfectly.
-------------------------Zirkzee
Garnacho------------------------------Amad
-------------------------Bruno
-----------Mainoo-----------------Ugarte
-----------------------Martinez
------Yoro---------De Ligt-------Mazraoui
This one has always sounded complicated because it requires heavy possession but also the use of a lot of verticality, by design there are triangles everywhere and players are supposed to pass and move while maintaining diamonds and therefore natural passes everywhere. Ideally the team is supposed to be entirely made of elite technicians.
I don't know if you deliberately being obtuse, but I'll humor you.
The notion of the manager players doesn't necessarily means ones he managed before. It refers to the players who have the attributes that fit the manager tactics or the ones the club obtain with the manager knowledge or approval because they have those attributes as well.
Amad is clearly Amorim player, while Rashford are not
Am
Were David Gill and Peter Kenyon footballing people? I think this whole hierarchical approach in football is a waste of time.
The reality is, clubs must wait to find an exceptional manager to take their club forward i.e. Wenger, Ferguson, Pep, Klopp, Clough. It's not about the directors; they lack the footballing knowledge of those abovementioned managers.
And the point is that a player that has the "right" profile still isn't your player, he still needs to be integrated into his new environment, you still need to actually learn who he is, how to coach him, how he interacts with his teammates. But yeah I'm being obtuse.
This. We have had 2 top trophy winning managers, premier league proven manager, Hipster manager DOF manager and legend manager, playing these formations and still was nowhere near the title or CL. We needed to try something new. Slot wouldnt have had the results here he has had at Liverpool.
Only one team was winning that game once it went 1-1 and it wasn't Leicester with their 3 shots on target and 26% possession
Why not? Truth be told the only difference between today and 15 years ago is that we had a great manager and we have had one since. That's the difference, Fenway weren't doing a good job until Klopp appeared.
Our poor form could be attributed to the manager, the mediocre players and years of mismanagement. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Why do we always need someone to ‘blame’ or single out as explaining the reason for our continued failure as a football club? It’s a whole host of reasons not just a single problem.
Who said that out of interest? Neville? And has he been critical of Amorim? I've not really seen any unfair criticism of him in the media so I'm interested to know.
We have issues with fitness, Physicality, Football IQ and creativity. There are at least 3 more players in our youth set up who could have helped this season.
Harry Amass was worth a few sub appearances in the EPL and a few cup starts, Biancheri would be great from the bench as R10 or L10, he’s clever and makes the right runs to score goals and the other one is Jack Moorehouse who is a genuine box to box midfielder unit who carries the ball and scores goals. He’s the main reason the under 21’s are third in the EPL2 right now, since he’s returned from an injury.
I also think Victor Mussa could be the perfect wing back on the left or the right, he’s rapid and has an incredible engine even though he’s still only 17/18.
The fact we can’t seem to fit the 3421 system with the players available and we are not compact enough is a huge issue. If Amorim switches to 3412, I genuinely think we will do much better.
I would really like to see this team start just to give us more of a goal threat and more control in midfield.
Bayinder - GK
N Mazroui - RCB
MDL - CB
L Yoro - LCB
Amad - RWB
M Ugarte - CM
J Moorehouse - CM
P Dorgu - LWB
Bruno - False 9
K Mainoo - R10
Garnaucho - L Wide 10
Bench - Onana, Maguire, Dalot, V Musa, Casemiro, T Collyer , C Eriksen, J Zirkzee,
R Hojlund
Watch the Leicester game back and Garnaucho and Amad were constantly getting to the byline and pulling the ball back into the middle of penalty area and no midfielder or attacker had the football IQ to see this, Moorehouse does and so does Kobbie, Bruno would be much better as a false 9, he can’t play CM on a regular basis, he’s ok in 1 in 5 games but he vacates the area to frequently.
I also think we should be bringing Zirkzee and Hojlund on together at about the 60 min mark and get them to both start making the correct runs into the opposition penalty box, the fact that both are built at 6’3/6’4 and don’t bully defenders is crazy, they need to be set up with Lindelof and Evans week in eel out learning how to turn CB’s and link their runs better.
We can easily drop Bruno back to 10 and play 352 with both of them from 60 mins onward.
Love that he has high standards and he’s a very honest guy. Happy with the result but not the performance. Other managers would make excuses. He also admitted our goal was offside. Like that he made them do a late training session as punishment.
If we look at last summer;
Mazroui was a minor upgrade on AWB because AWB has got more PL goals and assists this season and Mazroui is more of a defensive Full back than attacking.
MDL- was not an upgrade on Varane when he played, but he’s far less injured.
Lenny Yoro - was clearly an upgrade on Willy Kambwala
Joshua Zirkzee - Is not yet half the player a crippled Martial was but he has potential and at least he’s fit.
Manuel Ugarte - is a slight upgrade on Sofran Amrabat
Patrick Dorgu - will be a huge upgrade on Mallacia
The real question is Wilcox an upgrade on Ashworth and is Amorim an upgrade on ETH?
Right now you’d say they are all as bad as each other and maybe the 6 players we brought in deserve better from a club like ours.