The petulant life of a football fan. This was your take on him in mid December.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
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The petulant life of a football fan. This was your take on him in mid December.
Things change. See the last sentence on my previous post. Fans are desperate to believe.
We have a larger body of work to judge him by. The honeymoon is over.
Not believing in someone or what they bring to the table isnt petulance. Its an opinion. We are all entitled to one. My opinion of fans like you is you think you are better fans because you are blindly loyal. A lemming. Or a turkey with their head in the sand.
Don't get your hopes up, there won't be one either way
I wouldn't mind it much if we had consistency from the senior management in terms of who they hired as the head coach, because that's always been our problem hasn't it? Apparently Tuchel was the ideal replacement and then it was actually Amorim. Completely different in terms of who they would want to recruit. I expected it from the Glazers but these guys are meant to be "best in class"...
I'm genuinely asking because I know feck all about football other than "he looks shite, he looks ok".
You change your opinion that drastically over the course of several weeks?
Like everyone else, I wanted him to suceed.You change your opinion that drastically over the course of several weeks?
I don't think you do/did.
We didn't even lose the other night and some of you are absolutely losing your shit. It's bizarre. I can semi understand the situation if we'd lost and were also out of Europa. But we're through into the next stages of both cups.
I don’t really care the players can’t play this style. They either adapt or feck off.
He’s proven in works and if fans can’t handle some shit results until the players get use to it, that is their problem or not.
Manchester United or not, the embarrassment has been the last 12 years not what we are seeing right now. This is a culmination of shit investment and not modernising the way we play.
He’s proven in works and if fans can’t handle some shit results until the players get use to it, that is their problem or not.
Manchester United or not, the embarrassment has been the last 12 years not what we are seeing right now. This is a culmination of shit investment and not modernising the way we play.
So you , like many others, have not come to the realisation that we no longer can feck off everybody. Some additions will be made, but wide clear-outs are a thing of the past.
"fecking off" the whole squad isn't feasible given our financial constraints, whether we want to or not
We now have two weeks of straight training. Im expecting to see a modicum of improvement. If there’s absolutely 0 then it’s slightly worrying. (But I’m all in for him until a good way through next season if it doesn’t approve at all)
People can direct the anger at me if it makes them feel better. But RA is in a doom loop death spiral already.
Players cant play said formation>>>Results are bad>>>>RA criticises players in press conferences/humiliates them with extra training>>>>Persists with plan A
RA loses some fans, media criticise, RA flogs players harder
Players cant play said formation>>>Results are bad>>>>RA criticises players in press conferences/humiliates them with extra training>>>>Persists with plan A
RA loses more fans, media intensify criticism, RA flogs players harder
Players cant play said formation>>>Results are bad>>>>RA criticises players in press conferences/humiliates them with extra training>>>>Persists with plan A
Fans now disillusioned, media in negative frenzy, INEOS publicly back him
Players cant play said formation>>>Results are bad>>>>RA criticises players in press conferences/humiliates them with extra training>>>>Persists with plan A
Fired
Only thing that breaks that cycle is if RA pushes his ego to one side, admit the squad cant play his way, works with what hes got, and try and get some decent results till he overhauls the squad in the summer.
You all know this is where we are. Its sliding doors. I think he will fall on his sword rather than change.
Players cant play said formation>>>Results are bad>>>>RA criticises players in press conferences/humiliates them with extra training>>>>Persists with plan A
RA loses some fans, media criticise, RA flogs players harder
Players cant play said formation>>>Results are bad>>>>RA criticises players in press conferences/humiliates them with extra training>>>>Persists with plan A
RA loses more fans, media intensify criticism, RA flogs players harder
Players cant play said formation>>>Results are bad>>>>RA criticises players in press conferences/humiliates them with extra training>>>>Persists with plan A
Fans now disillusioned, media in negative frenzy, INEOS publicly back him
Players cant play said formation>>>Results are bad>>>>RA criticises players in press conferences/humiliates them with extra training>>>>Persists with plan A
Fired
Only thing that breaks that cycle is if RA pushes his ego to one side, admit the squad cant play his way, works with what hes got, and try and get some decent results till he overhauls the squad in the summer.
You all know this is where we are. Its sliding doors. I think he will fall on his sword rather than change.
Yeah, we've got a pretty decent February. Europa and FA Cup 5th round starts in March. So we actually have a decent 3 weeks or so of recovery and training.
This post is what ADHD generally feels like.
Or a basic route to getting the sack as a football manager.
Clue.......try a different approach
SJR does not strike me as a patient man.
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We also outplayed City at the Etihad and went toe-to-toe with Liverpool at Anfield. Then there was the Arsenal game where, with 10 men, we fought like warriors and knocked them out. The performance when down to 10 men was the best I can remember from us as we usually crumble.
Some people don't realise or are purposely ignoring the mess he walked into, and what he's shown since joining has been very impressive.
I don’t believe it.. but it’s something our ex players have constantly preached. Strange they should abandon it the minute we get a manager who isn’t scared to ruffle a few feathers.
No. But I’m not the one whose been on tv talking about “manager’s needing 3 windows”
I was Moyes out by October. I think Amorim deserves backing. First manager to really try and change what’s gone wrong at United. Which funnily enough started when Moyes went of his way to keep a Rooney that should have been sold.
Funnily enough I think we played quite well in parts against Forest, Bournemouth and Wolves but found ways to give those games away while doing our usual awful job at taking chances. Predominantly though we lost those games through mistakes.
This recent run of wins has been significantly worse in terms of chance creation and yet the results have been better.
It’s a similar pattern to the last few years when we’d win unconvincingly one week and then get beaten the next. It makes judging the coach particularly difficult. ETH may have not got sacked had he won the games against Palace and West Ham which I think we broadly deserved to.
I’m just not sure what to make of the Amorim era so far. I was really keen on him but the eye test doesn’t seem to show even slight glimpses of progress. Even with little training can it stay this disjointed all season?
Some decent points and some over reactions but the bit I'd really focus on is that we have to be prepared for the eventuality that he gets sacked. There aren't that many 5-3-2 managers around and we can't deal with another half a decade of rebuild with a guy that wants to play 4-2-3-1. Giving him a couple of wing backs IMO isn't a huge deal. I don't see much else being done here to support him specifically. The only other potential concern is selling Garnacho or Mainoo but they seem to have backed off from that. Let's see.
Specific things to disagree with:
- Liverpool already have a WC squad and aren't building something from scratch. It makes sense that they tell a manager to feck off if they insist on a particular formation. We are not in their position, INEOS are basically rebuilding from scratch.
- He's still experimenting with players and Mainoo played one game at #9 and two games at #10 (one of those he looked really good!), so chill out a bit. If it's obvious to a random caftard, it'll be obvious to the manager.
- The squad is not built to play his style and yet.. he has been hired. It'll be more concerning if he were to just give up on his ideas and go to a 4 ATB system immediately.
- Anyone can win small leagues. Slot or Maresca or even Klopp might be randos. That's how it works in football - you hire a guy that looks promising and gettable and if it doesn't work out sack and move on. Well .. unless you have guys like Pep floating about that you make a 5 year plan for and get.
- The new manager bounce might not be all good anyway. It fades with time and well .. remember Ole and PSG?
There was nothing stopping Garnacho squaring the ball for Hojlund on Friday either. If I was Hojlund I’d probably be fighting Garnacho on the pitch the next time he doesn’t pass me the ball.
I do agree though that it makes sense to have wing backs on their natural side. Dorgu played wide enough on the right but it just means we have nobody crossing on the run. So many passes backwards because of the way Dalot and Dorgu received the ball.
Turkeys with their heads in the sand? That's new. But more importantly, re. your earlier post:
"Lets debase some myths here."
You mean strawman arguments, at least in part.
"Results and performances are much worse than Ten Hag. There has been no new manager bounce. Players are being played out of position (Mainoo striker, Bruno CM, Dorgu and Dalot inverted)."
A new manager bounce doesn't indicate quality. And it makes sense for Amorim to try players in various positions, given some of them are a poor fit for their more natural position in this system.
"The squad clearly cant play his formation and style, RA is getting more and more frustrated, so much hes doing training sessions on the OT pitch after games. How long before he loses the dressing room, if he hasnt already?"
This was said a million times about Ten Hag, but hadn't even happened when he was fired. A pointless consideration.
"I was concerned even before his first match because of his formation. The fact of the matter is, successful clubs that play wing backs are in the minority. I can only think of Inter and Conte's Chelsea that have deployed it and won things."
That's a valid concern, but given Amorim got good results with this system in Portugal and in the CL (including against EPL teams), it's far from a hopeless case.
"Liverpool have already turned RA down because they thought he would not suit their squad. Look how Slot has hit the ground running."
They got Slot because of the stylistic similarity to Klopp, which Amorim clearly didn't have. That means nothing for United, because no-one wanted a coach that would play like Ten Hag, and no-one thought United had a strong, stylistically cohesive squad that just needed a little TLC from the right coach.
"Ashworth was touted as the best in class, and was sacked because he refused to green light Amorim due to the issues we are now experiencing"
You can't have it both ways. Ashworth was touted as best class by the people that thought Amorim was a good idea. So you trust them on the former but not on the latter? It's selective reasoning.
"If RA had shown any green shoots of progress or cause for optimism in the 3 months he has been here I would be willing to give him a chance. But it clearly isnt working. The team is vastly underperforming. Its not a crap squad of players. There are internationals galore. Its a top 8 team, not 16th."
While the underperforming is true, there have also been plenty of green shoots in long periods of games - so you're exaggerating.
"Given a manger time, does not mean things will be turned around"
True, but some managers also do need time. Certainly with this United squad, instant results are unlikely from anyone. So this argument doesn't say anything interesting.
"Has RA given any signs that he deserves 200m and carte blanche to buy and sell who he chooses in the summer?"
Who said that any coach should get carte blanche to spend a ton of money? That would be a terrible idea, no matter how successful the coach is.
"What happens if it all goes tits up, hes sacked next October, and we have a squad full of 532 players? Are we going to have to find another 532 manager?"
That's a good question and hopefully something United's management considered before hiring Amorim. It's not an argument for or against anything Amirom does though.
"IMO it was downright negligent, after the last 15 years for United to hire such an extreme system manager. There is nothing wrong with playing 4231/433 and simply upgrading a few players in key positions. The road to success would have been 3 times quicker and cheaper"
If it was so simple, why has no manager gottwn the team going at United? Why does everything keep failing? And how do you know the 3-at-the-back decision isn't part of a long-term plan?
"Ifeel like people give hipster managers too much time and credit. People are too scared to call RA to account. Hes been shite. Absolutely shite. He talks a good game, but the results are awful and the selections head scratching."
As if anyone is saying that everything's going great. Nope.
"People say what good has 4231 done us? Its the personel thats the issue not the formation. Madrid, City, Barcelona, Chelsea, Liverpool, PSG, Bayern....all the big and winning clubs deploy some sort of 4231/433. Christ, Fergie won all those trophies playing a straight forward 442."
This contradicts a couple of point above. So the squad isn't quality? Or is Amorin is right to experiment with players, given they're not suitable in other positions? It feels like you're just lashing out randomly here.
"RA's inability to accept that the squad cant play his way means he either has an ego or he doesnt know how to play any other way. That tells me he is inexperienced and a bit of a one hit wonder. Ange Postecoglu is getting slated for the very same thing and doing equally bad."
Or he was hired with the mandate to implement this system. I mean, everyone and their dog knew that this is his approach. Surely United's management did as well and discussed with Amorim what he'd implement once hired.
"Anyone can win a title in these smaller leagues. OK he gets some Kudos for doing it with sporting. But its a three horse league. RVN was at PSV, Ange at Celtic. Ten Hag at Ajax. What has RA done in the game to make so many people believe he is the messiah? He has a worse managerial record than Ten Hag. People quickly turned on him."
Except Sporting didn't win titles in ages and Van Nistelrooij didn't actually win a title with PSV. But more generally, while winning a title anywhere doesn't guarantee success elsewhere, downplaying it as zero achievement makes no sense either.
"The reason RA is getting an easy ride comes down to fans desperately wanting to believe. They are tired of manager merry go round. They want him to succeed so badly, they cant see the wood for the trees. RA is an inexperienced manager, that is way out of his depth, and he doesn't know what to do. Thats the truth. Some of us have accepted it. Most fans are in the denial phase still. The parallels with Ange Postecoglou is uncanny"
Of course people are optimistic. Where's the fun in following sports if your outlook is negative? And your assessment of Amorim isn't 'the truth's, it's highly subjective and full of holes (as I argued below).
You can't possibly say that Amorim will definitely be a success and it would be important that his preferred playstyle (which wasn't defensive at Sporting) starts coming out more clearly in performances. But writing him off like you're doing here is way premature.
I honestly don’t think we need one as dramatic as people make out nor will signing players for Amorim be a problem if he’s sacked.
Players are adaptable despite the histrionics on here. Dorgu for example has played plenty of games at LB and RW. He isn’t just a wing back. Amad has already played well in multiple positions. The center backs are looking more comfortable playing in a back three in my opinion (not perfect by any means).
If we signed Quenda, a no10, a CM and a striker in the summer who wouldn’t be able to adapt to a new coach who plays with four at the back?
You are so wrong it’s actually pretty amusing you then have the cheek to call people ”irrational” and suggest they stop watching football
We fought like warriors? We usually crumbles?
We are still crumbling free falling, and we just got besieged by Leicester City and only won thanks to last minute goal