Everytime I see these 5 guys at the back I know it will be dross. No idea why he lines up so defensively. Hasn't helped stabilzing our defense either. Not to speak of today's Mainoo experiment
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
This.
Musical chairs.. there is a narrative and a belief that many supporters have that the current manager is the best.
When it happens against, its this thing, when it happens for it, its because something else occurred.
Bottom line is. Poor managers are extremely visible almost immediately. They can cover up somethings but by keen eye you can tell, they wont make it.
Amorim needs to start winning games. We cant operate with future hope of success. Imagine us spending 200m in the summer for this 343 system then results remain unchanged, Amorim is sacked, where do we go with team full of wingbacks and defenders?
We should be very very wary. Eth left us a mess, probably ETH now is enjoying his life somewhere while he left us a stinking squad.
We should be very suspicious of all managers till we get someone who can guarantee success by proof of winning it here.
Are they adapting to the new style though? What improvements are we seeing?
Seems to me that Amorim has got some fans believing pain = gain. Sorry but sometimes pain is just pain and all it is preparing you for is more pain.
Literally 0 transfers into a game model change mid season, with no suitable players in multiple positions
Fergie used to cede possession at times so that his teams don't end up facing the low block all the time. I remember being annoyed at teams like Southampton and Swansea having better possession numbers than us.
I realised the folly of possession numbers since the December Of LVG a few years back.
And for his point to be true the club obviously needs good players (they don't even need to be world class) that are being mismanaged or have downed tools at the time of the change for it to be true. Hence every team he mentioned being amongst the best squads in world.
A better example would be Rudd (the manager I've seen a lot of people saying we should have kept over Amorim until end of season) taking over a crap Leicester team and them being even worse.
I don't know if Amorim is good or bad yet as I appreciate the fact he has basically be playing out a pre season in the league for his first two months and has a lot of dross. I will reserve my judgement on him until he at least has two average wingbacks and 1 average striker which isn't asking a lot.
he has one average £25 million wingback now so if he can integrate him into the team and get a half decent striker on loan before the window shuts as well as factoring in the few months he has already had I think it will be fairer to start judging him but I don't think it's fair to be calling for his head already, in fact I think it's ridiculous.
I will admit I worry about how many goals we ship though, I thought giving how crap our players are and the fact he plays 3/5 at the back he would have had us super solid defensively and grinding out 1/2 will wins a lot more.
Maguire and Dalot at left back makes me nervous, add to that Ugarte being erratic all the time and not stabilising possession made it worse. Collyer did very well whenever he has played, he brings a bit of calm, athleticism and possession.
Hopefully Dalot back on the right and Dorgu on the left improves us.
I think i have tagged everyone...
So let me ask you people,,,
How comes the previous manager before Zidane or Flick was not able to USE THE WORLD CLASS squad that was there before they were sacked.
Just answer me that...
- How comes Benitez was unable to use prime Ronaldo, Benzema but Zidane was able to use them immediately to achieve UCL...
- How comes Nico Kovac at Bayern was not able to USE THAT WORLD CLASS squad but Flick was able to use it and achieve a treble.
- How comes Conte took a Chelsea team which finished 10th in EPL to winning the title after signing only Kante, Luiz, Alonso.
Problem with some of our fans is they think they are clever than everyone else. We're delusional.
Then we flip it, How comes Moyes was given a 2013 champions team then took it to number 7 in 9 months... team of League winners... team of world class squad..
Again, i will say it here. A good manager doesn't need millions to win games, leave alone 3 year project or new squad players...
Limited managers are visible quite early. Just that some of our fans are clearly deluded and operating in hope and future success.
you continue to use examples of a good manager achieving success with a star squad compared to a previous lesser manager who underachieved with the same star squad.
literally nothing like Amorim struggling to achieve success (in 3 months) with a distinctly shit squad, which was also shit under the previous manager. your argument was ridiculous to start with, let alone now you've doubled down on it.
Not that I necessarily agree with everything in the post you replied to, but Amorim is struggling to get better than a point per game in 3 months, not just achieve success. It's completely shite irrespective of how average the squad is relative to others (and I don't even think it's that bad).
@Licha-Vidic are you kidding?
Disaster tirade from you.
- Benitez was dismissed from Real because he lost 4-0 to Barcelona. He left the team as top of their CL group and 4 point off top in La liga.
- Kovac left Bayern after he won league/cup double previous season.
- Conte signed players who were vital to his team and resolved the biggest issues Chelsea team had.
- Moyes inherited aging and unbalanced squad that performes way over their level under SAF.
- Slot inherited a Liverpool squad full of upcoming talent that they bought in previous seasons. Because they buy young players and slowly introduce them into the team. We rely on 19-20 years olds to be consistent starters and play 2 games per week.
Really, we should bring Zidane in. Tomorrow.
After 1 month you'll be calling him shit manager.
Disaster tirade from you.
- Benitez was dismissed from Real because he lost 4-0 to Barcelona. He left the team as top of their CL group and 4 point off top in La liga.
- Kovac left Bayern after he won league/cup double previous season.
- Conte signed players who were vital to his team and resolved the biggest issues Chelsea team had.
- Moyes inherited aging and unbalanced squad that performes way over their level under SAF.
- Slot inherited a Liverpool squad full of upcoming talent that they bought in previous seasons. Because they buy young players and slowly introduce them into the team. We rely on 19-20 years olds to be consistent starters and play 2 games per week.
Really, we should bring Zidane in. Tomorrow.
After 1 month you'll be calling him shit manager.
We've brought in a lb/lwb and a CB already.
Even if we ride it out the season, letting him spend big on the players he needs in the summer is going to be a massive gamble as he has only one way of playing which could be quickly found out and leave us back in this same position.
it really is.
it doesn't help he's changing the way we play. he may have marginally done better keeping the same style of play but what would be the point of that?
who have yet to play.
I'm guessing you missed my point.
I'll reword.
People are judging the manager before any players signed under the new game model, introduced mid season, have even played a game
No, it really isn't. We need a striker but we have a team that ultimately has good options at CB, it has 2 players very capable at being RB and LB, it has 2 good central midfielders, a very good 10, a good LW and a very good RW.
And there are varying degrees of depth across these positions. We finished 8th with a worse squad last year, this idea that he's about par for 1 point a game in 12 or 13 games is just burying heads in the sand. He will be the first one to say that he hasn't performed well enough so far, in fact he did it a couple press conferences ago.
This season was doomed from the moment the club couldn't make the obvious decision to sack Ten Hag last Summer. Yes, Utd ended up with FA Cup after he finally changed his tactics, against a City we now know where on the edge of a cliff, but it was inevitable that it would fall apart again.
This club have been hoping the manager will bring an identity back to the team from the moment Fergie retired, so we keep throwing money at managers visions, lurching ineffectively from pub cover version attempts at other teams styles instead of building a modern vision of Utd.
This club have been hoping the manager will bring an identity back to the team from the moment Fergie retired, so we keep throwing money at managers visions, lurching ineffectively from pub cover version attempts at other teams styles instead of building a modern vision of Utd.
Berrada is in effectively the role Woodward was in so he shouldn’t have had a big say in the next head coach seeing as that was Ashworth’s job and Ashworth left very soon after Amorim came in which is publicly known to have been 100% Berrada’s call, if Woodward did that they’d be lynch mobs going to his house again so Ratcliffe would have every right to be annoyed at Berrada in the same way he apparently was with Ashworth after Ashworth pushing to keep ETH.
Reality is though Ratcliffe wanted to control the footballing side and it’s on him that there was a power struggle allowed to happen between Berrada, Ashworth and to a lesser extent Wilcox as they should have been told their job roles and allowed to do that to the best of their ability without interference from each other and if they didn’t work out then Berrada had power to fire them and Ineos had power to fire Berrada.
It is though Berrada’s first time in this role as at City he was in charge of the footballing network if I remember right so the boss of the bosses of each club so never interfered in things like incoming managers and scouting or tactical systems so has no experience at that so why he was allowed to overrule Ashworth who’s main asset is building and implementing and who we’d waited on whilst on gardening leave is another feck up by Ratcliffe.
I get why people want to get behind Amorim and I’m presuming it’s a written off season but some of the contradictions are silly.
This squad is arguably stronger then last seasons , the younger players with more experience and has way less injuries and while a lot is being made of Rashford , that’s one player , it’s not like this is the only player issue the last few seasons and he was a problem last season aswell.
As always , the truth is somewhere in the middle, it’s not a great squad but it’s not a lower half of league by a country mile.
I don’t blame Amorim, I blame INEOs, makes zero sense bringing him in like this. Might aswell of kept ruud or even the previous manager , if results don’t matter why bother putting the potential replacement in so much pressure. Do what they did with the bald one who signed a pre contract and remained with Ajax.
We have a broken squad. Its acceptable by all.
We cant win the league.
We cant win the ucl.
But we can and should win 23 games in the league with it.
13 home games..all homes games bar against top 6.
10 away games. All bottom half of the table away games.
Then try and conjure 6-7 draws. Lose another 8 games.
With this analogy, we should be 73 points team. Which i believe is attainable with this squad. The squad can go to Anfield and get a result, then a manager should be able to set-up the team to get a result against Palace at OT.
Amorim has now been working with the full squad since November playing multiple games a week. In most of our preseasons the first choice 11 gets how many 60-90 minute run outs together? Maybe one?
That framing seems like a massive stretch to me. I also don't think it is a framing we have ever previously applied to any other manager of any team who started mid-season.
At some point we have to accept that he has actually been in charge for quite a lot of games now and the team ought to be showing some signs of moving in the right direction in some aspects of our play, even if there are some other failings that need more time or signings to fix.
Who is scoring the goals consistently to win all these games?
What gives you the idea that playing Liverpool and Palace are remotely similar?
I don't really understand what it is he is trying to achieve right now? I mean chaos ball has gone but it's just become nothing ball.
It's like he thinks of we just play slow and aimlessly the oppo will eventually make a mistake and let us in. Sort of like LVG's philosophy of control over everything. But it doesn't work in the PL it never has.
Also not unlike LVG it has worked ok in big games where we have been on the back foot because all the defensive players pushed back makes us difficult to break down and the opposition take more risks and gives our limited attacking players more time and space. So we can pickup results in those games.
But against most opposition we have to be the one to be taking the risks and we are so risk averse that teams can just sit in and wait for us to make a mistake.
He has to learn quickly otherwise he might go down as our worst post SAF manager.
It's like he thinks of we just play slow and aimlessly the oppo will eventually make a mistake and let us in. Sort of like LVG's philosophy of control over everything. But it doesn't work in the PL it never has.
Also not unlike LVG it has worked ok in big games where we have been on the back foot because all the defensive players pushed back makes us difficult to break down and the opposition take more risks and gives our limited attacking players more time and space. So we can pickup results in those games.
But against most opposition we have to be the one to be taking the risks and we are so risk averse that teams can just sit in and wait for us to make a mistake.
He has to learn quickly otherwise he might go down as our worst post SAF manager.
Ultimately, this gets solved with money and good recruitment. I already see the pressure building for next season. I fear people are going to have too high of expectations thinking the team is this poor because he hasn't had enough time on the training ground.
Just need that mythical training camp though, once the players can do some more passing drills around cones and play some meaningless friendlies in the States will things really click and they'll be pulling up trees. That's going to be the mindset and things will get really toxic if results are poor early next season. Mark my words.
Just need that mythical training camp though, once the players can do some more passing drills around cones and play some meaningless friendlies in the States will things really click and they'll be pulling up trees. That's going to be the mindset and things will get really toxic if results are poor early next season. Mark my words.
At each of those club's low points their fans likely would have thought the squads were worse than they actually were. The easiest example is the Newcastle team that Eddie Howe inherited and immediately turned around.
Now, no one is saying this is a squad that can be winning a league, far from it. Its a squad that would struggle to challenge for top 4. However, it is definitely not a squad that is bottom half. Amorim was brought in to instill his tactics and provide a stronger platform for the players. There was not an expectation for him to get top 4, but instead steady the ship and show an improvement in the team. Instead he has taken the team backwards. That's not a judgement but based on fact. The team is worse in pretty much every way. That was not the expectation of Amorim. Even when Klopp came in and didn't have the right players, he was still able to show his dna in the team's performances despite not having the right players. As did Eddie Howe. If this is Amorim's dna, then this defensive football is not the one. If it is not his dna, then there should be questions about how good of a coach he is and how good this tactic is. Its fair to ask questions about the manager because he is underperforming relative to already low expectations.
Exactly this!
We’ve gotten over 70 points only 3 times in 11 seasons. It’s lovely when you put the points down like that on paper of games we should be winning, but they don’t tally with reality which is that have a squad full of (some talented) misfits and have had for quite some time.
It's because he came mid season
For example chelsea made massive investments in 2012. They had then Diego Costa and Hazard firing. The league was way less competitive back then.
I think i have tagged everyone...
So let me ask you people,,,
How comes the previous manager before Zidane or Flick was not able to USE THE WORLD CLASS squad that was there before they were sacked.
Just answer me that...
- How comes Benitez was unable to use prime Ronaldo, Benzema but Zidane was able to use them immediately to achieve UCL...
- How comes Nico Kovac at Bayern was not able to USE THAT WORLD CLASS squad but Flick was able to use it and achieve a treble.
- How comes Conte took a Chelsea team which finished 10th in EPL to winning the title after signing only Kante, Luiz, Alonso.
Problem with some of our fans is they think they are clever than everyone else. We're delusional.
Then we flip it, How comes Moyes was given a 2013 champions team then took it to number 7 in 9 months... team of League winners... team of world class squad..
Again, i will say it here. A good manager doesn't need millions to win games, leave alone 3 year project or new squad players...
Limited managers are visible quite early. Just that some of our fans are clearly deluded and operating in hope and future success.
It's well reported how Benitez was not welcomed by players, ZZ came to a team that he was an assistant to before.
He did say early doors that it would be more shit than good. That said, I didn't think the results would be this poor, especially at home. Will reserve any kind of proper judgement till he has five or six signings that suit his setup. I am a little concerned with his limited tactical setup. Not a fan of 3-4-2-1, personally. But he has shown with Sporting that it can be very effective. After 12 years of shit since Fergie left, it's understandable that there is massive discourse around the direction we are going in. He absolutely needs to start getting a good run of results though.
He's not telling them to be slow on the ball. That's what has been coached into them over the last few seasons and confidence.
The other issue is defensive fullbacks playing at wingback.
There should always be an out ball to a wing back who is comfortable running the ball up the pitch, but balancing for set pieces and needing Amad closer to the goals means until Dorgu plays we're limited in options.
LVG example even more apt as if people remember he came and tried to get us playing in a back 3. We then had a torrid time and he switched it and we had a decent season.
I just want him to commit to the formation and sensible choices (Dalot rwb is the most obvious one, Mainoo competing at 10, just choose one of hojlind/zirkzee and back them). If he’s a good coach we’ll creep up the league, if he’s not we’ll likely just avoid relegation.
We've not really had a good run of results since Ole was in charge really.
Amorim's lack of ability to change it up leads me to believe he's really quite limited. Trouble is we don't want to start buying for his system to then bin him off.
I don't want to really judge him till next season, but kinell' he's not making it easy. The football is drab, irrespective of whether we win or lose.
Think about the astronomical money we have spent and how little we have achieved in results and how flawed our squad is. Our options are to either continue that and challenge for top 4-5 or break it up and rebuild.
Looks like we are rebuilding and while Amorim isn't gods gift to earth as a manager, he's better than bald clown before and he seems to have a style he really wants to play, good at rotating players, and doesn't tolerate bad culture.
Looks like we are rebuilding and while Amorim isn't gods gift to earth as a manager, he's better than bald clown before and he seems to have a style he really wants to play, good at rotating players, and doesn't tolerate bad culture.
The Mainoo experiment worries me. As does the fact that he keeps persisting with Dalot & Mazrouie as full backs, when it clearly doesn’t work. Anyone who’s watched Mainoo play for the past 12/18 months since he broke through could have told you he’s not a striker/false 9 and that it wouldn’t work.
The fact that we’re so early into his tenure and he’s throwing out these random ideas hoping something sticks doesn’t exactly fill you with confidence. It’s not quite Erik playing Mazrouei as a #10, but it’s along the same lines.
Is it that much to ask for to have a manager that just plays a normal fecking formation, that players are used to and that puts them in their correct position ? We had to endure over a year of Erik and his ridiculous no midfield with a deep sitting defence ‘system’ and now we’ve got Amorim and his back five that suits pretty much no one in the squad. Is it that difficult to find a manager that just plays a normal functioning 4231/433/442 etc Why do we keep going for managers that want to reinvent the wheel?
I think i have tagged everyone...
So let me ask you people,,,
How comes the previous manager before Zidane or Flick was not able to USE THE WORLD CLASS squad that was there before they were sacked.
Just answer me that...
- How comes Benitez was unable to use prime Ronaldo, Benzema but Zidane was able to use them immediately to achieve UCL...
- How comes Nico Kovac at Bayern was not able to USE THAT WORLD CLASS squad but Flick was able to use it and achieve a treble.
- How comes Conte took a Chelsea team which finished 10th in EPL to winning the title after signing only Kante, Luiz, Alonso.
Problem with some of our fans is they think they are clever than everyone else. We're delusional.
Then we flip it, How comes Moyes was given a 2013 champions team then took it to number 7 in 9 months... team of League winners... team of world class squad..
Again, i will say it here. A good manager doesn't need millions to win games, leave alone 3 year project or new squad players...
Limited managers are visible quite early. Just that some of our fans are clearly deluded and operating in hope and future success.
Because they weren't good enough and you think this is some gotcha that means Amorim isn't good enough either but it isn't because you used examples that aren't even remotely similar to ours.
If Amorim had come in and took over a really good squad of players and was getting the results he has been getting he probably would have been sacked already similar to Ashworth.
We are obviously are doing a bit worse than we could be (maybe 8th or 9th instead of 13th) but that has a lot to do with the fact that he's trying to teach something totally new and do his pre season in the middle of the season.
Fact of the matter is these players are crap so we best hope the new formation and way of playing works or else we're f'd.
Name our 5 best players and you could upgrade every one of them with a player from a team outside the European places, that tells you all you need to know.
We’ve been playing this dull, flaccid football since LVG. Bar some good games here and there it’s been the same football. I’d love to know what happened that turned our team in to this and why no matter the manager, we struggle to play any other way. I believe in Amorim but I think it’s gonna take a major overhaul. Whether INEOS or the fans have the appetite for that is another question
What attacking options has he missed exactly? He's inherited two poor number 9s who should be leaning their trade with minutes here and there, not primary options at one of the top five clubs in the world
Ten Hag had a good run in his first season. Small sample since Ole though. I agree with you there. I am surprised we went for Amorim considering our history. I just never like seeing three centre backs on the pitch at home to teams we should be beating. Dalot and Mazraoui are terrible options for him in crucial positions. I'll reserve judgment till next season.