Coddle them if you want but I think they’re all lazy feckless cnuts who’ve failed under every manager they’ve played under
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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And most of them will still be here next season. So surely a manager should do what brings the best out of them, since he can't and won't replace them all. Neither should he
Southgate was definitely not the answer and nothing suggests he would have done better. Just look at how England performed last summer.
I'm curious why few people seem to be asking is Amorim simply not that good, versus this?
Clearly he would have explained his plan in detail, ideas on transfers, and all the above. My guess is there would have been an acceptance that we may struggle and likely finish outside of Europe but, as it stands, he is chronically underachieving. The WBs are the main issue because of how he chooses to play - I get the idea of not adapting but he can play someone else there who is more attacking. He's very very risk adverse from what I can see and it's killing him.
I personally think you give him a free hit this season unless relegation genuinely becomes an issue, though I highly doubt that will actually happen because he'll be forced to go to Ole/Jose/Ruud ball and we'll be fine. It would be impressively shit if we actually got dragged into a relegation fight.
Very likely. And finished like 7th. And 7th again next season. And the season after (if still in charge)
This is exactly the problem atm. Short memory, wishing for Anthony to play instead of Maz, but when he plays it's "oh he's like a Southampton player", Eriksen to play but when he plays it's "he's physucally done".
The lack of options in this squad are quite poor.
I like Amorim but he is stubborn as hell.
He should be doing more, no excuses.
Look at Nuno at Forest, the pressure is less, but with cheaper players he is in 3rd.
And Nuno is not even close to world class.
The only excuse is it’s not his squad, but a manager should have a plan b, have to adapt to the resources available to him.
It did work in Sporting with an awful season in between his titles, but not sure he was prepared for the immense pressure of the United job.
It’s completely different world, United is one of the biggest clubs in the world, Sporting has been for decades the 3rd in Portugal.
He should be doing more, no excuses.
Look at Nuno at Forest, the pressure is less, but with cheaper players he is in 3rd.
And Nuno is not even close to world class.
The only excuse is it’s not his squad, but a manager should have a plan b, have to adapt to the resources available to him.
It did work in Sporting with an awful season in between his titles, but not sure he was prepared for the immense pressure of the United job.
It’s completely different world, United is one of the biggest clubs in the world, Sporting has been for decades the 3rd in Portugal.
Yeh I don’t get it, at Sporting he used young players a lot coming from the youth or b team, why did he stop doing that?
Are United youngsters that bad?
He picked different team for Newcastle and got crucified by the "pick the best 11 and stick with it" expert crew.
Man, the lengths some people will go to continue to bury their heads in the sand.
"The squad can't be THAT bad "(they are and have been going downhill since SAFs stalwarts left - have you not seen how some of them can't even hold on to the ball under any semblance of pressure in any system 4231 433 343?);
"They finished 8th last season!" (extremely lucky with every relevant football metric pointing to a more deserved 14/15th place finish)
"Amorim needs to adapt his tactics to get them playing better!" (right, just cause you play FM and get Cheltenham to the CL finals in 5 seasons with a 4231 gegenpress doesnt mean real life works exactly that way)".
Get a grip people. All change is hard, especially this sort of cultural/tactical/personnel reboot aimed to get a giant, floundering organization back to the pinnacle of a sport. Some people made a comparison on Amorim's 'worst team' statement to being in a real office. And how they would quit if their manager spoke similarly. Well, the only way those situations are comparable is if you take home north of 100k quid a week while fking up your spreadsheets and reports every day. Our players are weak mentally (some physically as well), and normally every team has a few of these, which is fine when the rest of the team makes up for their weaknesses (same as in any office). However, we have somehow managed to amass an entire 11 of these wasters, and just like in an office, no amount of training and PIPs is gonna fix that overnight.
"The squad can't be THAT bad "(they are and have been going downhill since SAFs stalwarts left - have you not seen how some of them can't even hold on to the ball under any semblance of pressure in any system 4231 433 343?);
"They finished 8th last season!" (extremely lucky with every relevant football metric pointing to a more deserved 14/15th place finish)
"Amorim needs to adapt his tactics to get them playing better!" (right, just cause you play FM and get Cheltenham to the CL finals in 5 seasons with a 4231 gegenpress doesnt mean real life works exactly that way)".
Get a grip people. All change is hard, especially this sort of cultural/tactical/personnel reboot aimed to get a giant, floundering organization back to the pinnacle of a sport. Some people made a comparison on Amorim's 'worst team' statement to being in a real office. And how they would quit if their manager spoke similarly. Well, the only way those situations are comparable is if you take home north of 100k quid a week while fking up your spreadsheets and reports every day. Our players are weak mentally (some physically as well), and normally every team has a few of these, which is fine when the rest of the team makes up for their weaknesses (same as in any office). However, we have somehow managed to amass an entire 11 of these wasters, and just like in an office, no amount of training and PIPs is gonna fix that overnight.
This is the cycle we're stuck in. Every combination of players we try fails. Every formation fails. Everything fails. We swing from one player to another, each met with calls from fans to start the other. It feels futile to moan about such things at this point
Cool
Can we please stop the "but look at *insert other manager here*"
we are on a downward spiral for a long time and yeah maybe other managers could have done a little bit better when looking at results but this team is in a situation where it is incredible hard to get out of.
Lacking confidence and therefor playing scared and making individual errors.
And there is no time to adapt anything, we can only react to the situation.
we are on a downward spiral for a long time and yeah maybe other managers could have done a little bit better when looking at results but this team is in a situation where it is incredible hard to get out of.
Lacking confidence and therefor playing scared and making individual errors.
And there is no time to adapt anything, we can only react to the situation.
it's getting funny at this stage..
He was employed with clear message and vision : do everything to implement the 3-4-3 high pressing system, starting with this set of players with an outlook on replacing the personnel within 4-6 transfer windows
we do not have 1 player to play the WB position which is fundamental for it, so it's his fault and we should play Antony or a kid who isn't ready for a Championship loan there
It's a fair point. I think him being articulate and speaking very well has clouded some of our fans judgement. If this was at our rivals, we wouldn't be view this situation the way we do. I like Amorim but I'm not wedded to the idea that he is the guy and if we purge the squad, things will be okay.
These players need a mate. Ole was their mate. Would Southgate have been the better option I wonder?
It wasn't about the formation per se, it was the scousers who supposedly looked into the possibility of hiring Amorim as Klopp's successor but ultimately decided against it because his persistence on his favourite 343 would unsettle the first team more than it was necessary (which proved to be the case). The difference is, of course, that Liverpool has a team with players in their prime playing in a system and using a formation that has led to titles and title challenges. They already had a team that can compete at the highest level in the here and the now, which makes these decisions easier short-term.
Ashworth got the boot because his overarching philosophy clashed with Ratcliffe's. When they sat at the table, they all agreed that the task ahead could prove overwhelming because nearly every aspect of how the club was run needed to change. From that point, allegedly, Ratcliffe wanted drastic solutions and no time lost waiting (just like the shock Amorim often mentions) while Ashworth advocated for playing the long(er) game. SJR approach was to bring all the new guys in and let them figure it out themselves as they go, while Ashworth wanted a step-by-step approach.
I also think that people read too much into the Southgate thing. After all, the information seeing the light of day (most of it coming from the club after they sacked him) seems to contradict itself. He wanted to bring (his mate) Southgate in, but he wanted ETH to stay, too. Which one is it? What possibly transpired was a version of events as seen from a non-United fan's perspective. This is how it looks from the outside looking in: United hire ETH as a manager, who fails (mainly) because he's given too much responsibility due to a lack of a technical team of experts. United go on to create a "best in class" technical team. Then, they sack ETH. Next, United appoint Amorim as a head-coach, with most of the responsibilities handled by the technical team. Then, they fire the head of the technical team. Now, United are back to square one: Should the head-coach become the manager again and decide on the next overhaul (which is basically what Amorim said yesterday, reading between the lines). This is what Ashworth would probably tell you.
In alternative universe we'd be 3rd in the table now, lead by Southgate with Holjund and Garnacho banging the goals in in a 4-2-3-1
Ugarte is tackler with high energy but casemiro can pass better and can actually create at times, he isn't the best at defending as Ugarte is. They aren't the same, they are very different profiles of CDM
Well in a very loosely defined way he is. He's nowhere near the same player ir in the squad.
This idea some of these players finished 2nd is a bit of a misnomer. Those goals have gone. Gone in a big way.
This season was basically a write off the second the club went back on the decision to sack ten Hag in the summer so as far as I'm concerned it's refreshing to see a United coach not sacrifice his philosophy and principles for a few cheap results in return. Short term pain that will hopefully lead to long term gain for us.
Ineos didn't bring him here to fail for half a season and see how low he can get the team before rewarding him with a full shiny new squad in the summer. They brought him here to get the best out of the squad we have.
The majority of these players are still going to be here next season and will still not be good enough for what he needs. Not sure where we go from here.
The majority of these players are still going to be here next season and will still not be good enough for what he needs. Not sure where we go from here.
Never thought I'd say this but we finally have another manager whose press conferences are the most entertaining bit.
Nah, Amorim is the last person I'm going to blame. We could have hired him last summer and given him a transfer window and pre season. We stuck with Ten Hag instead who was playing survival football week to week.
Then we sacked Ten Hag a few months into the season and gave Amorim a "take it or leave it" ultimatum to take the job, despite his asking to wait until the end of the season when he would be able to have a transfer window and pre season.
So he joins the club with a squad barely able to play Ten Hag's brand of survival football and is tasked with getting them to play a style of football they've never played and are barely capable of. All without any specialist wing backs which are the most important players in Amorim's system. And to cap it all off, we don't sign any players for him in the January window!
We've given this kid the mother and father of all hospital passes. He might get the sack before the season is out but we've f**ked him up royally.
No one is suggesting the expectations to get to the pinnacle of sport now, that will obviously take time and there are loads of variable factors. However, to come in and lose such a high amount of matches from the outset is unacceptable. We are barely competing against the teams that are in and around us in the table, why should fans just accept that?
Fully aware it isn't Amorim's fault and it is much more a player issue, but can't help feel that his stubbornness is contributing to the performances and results so far.
Excellent post
No matter what, manager should be able to improve the situation. It is abysmal to completely write off seasons and get into that kind of loop. If every lower half team believed that manager change will need full revamp of squad and results cannot be improved, then there will never have been a team saved by relegation (with mid season manager change).
My concerns are there has not been any significant manager bounce and I can't see him inspiring confidence into players, rather calling them the worst team is like adding digging your own grave. I really want him to succeed here , but right now the jobs looks too early for him in his career.
All true.
I don't necessarily blame Amorim for not going back to a double pivot, he is what he is. However, if I am Omar Berrada or I work to Omar Berrada, I've got a responsibility to know what the strengths of the squad are and decide on a future direction based on the playing staff, the liklihood of being able to change it drastically, and the ultimate end goal I'm trying to get to.
INEOS are to blame for where we are. INEOS took the decision to give this group of players to a coach who was totally ill suited to them AND without the guarantee that they could replace that group of players decisively and quickly.
If they knew anything about the playing staff they had, they should have been able to anticipate how much of a disaster this could turn out to be. Yet they pushed the button anyway. That's on them.
I think people forget how respected journalists were also strongly linking us with Southgate and that mostly came from Ashworths end
That would have taken joined up thinking.
I dont know where we go from here but multiple managers have not got a tune from the majority of players in this club. I dont know why we are expecting Amorim to get one. Its always been moments of brilliance never continued dominant displays.
I think we are looking at massive club clear out over the next 2 years, with gradual replacements that can finally, hopefully provide consistent performances.
I think we are looking at massive club clear out over the next 2 years, with gradual replacements that can finally, hopefully provide consistent performances.
So we will bring in someone who will turn Rasmus and Zirkzee into 20 goal a season strikers, will get Rashford's head out of his arse. Will turn turn Onana into VDS, will turn Garnacho into prime Giggs. Bruno into prime Scholes. Mainoo into Roy Keane. Our CB's into Rio/Vidic, our fullbacks into Neville and Evra. Because no matter who comes in, whatever system, some of these players are crap. This system has actually worked at times. The big problem is our players cannot cope with playing a lot of games, well let me tell them something that is what a Manchester United player does. The biggest issue we have is a squad with not enough quality to be able to rotate. Certain players get played to death. Trouble is Ineos are going down the potential market, which is fine if it is top potential, however you also need to be bringing in experience as well. Bringing in potential at the strikers position and nobody else with experience was negligence of the highest order.
So how much will it cost to pay him off if we sack him? More money out of the transfer coffers. This is all on Ineos. I wouldn't trust this lot to run a church fete tombola stall.
He literally said it.
The squad is poor but it’s not by far and away the worst squad in the league, and we’ve been performing like one for the last two months. We’ve literally been the worst in the league over that period, performance wise, and probably close to that results wise as well. We were outplayed by Southampton for 60 minutes the other day.
I like Amorim, I think he could be a big success under right circumstances and he’s young enough to still learn and address his flaws but he cannot be absolved of all blame for how abysmal we’ve been recently.
Guys just ask yourself this in terms of Amorims ability as a coach. Would Amorims Sporting team perform better than this united team in PL this season? And the answer for me is most definitely. The team Amorim left were miles better at absolutely everything.
This team have many players that's given up completely on massive salaries will have a negative impact. Most of this squad has gotten used to losing and all the negative shit surrounding not achieving what's expected. The only winner left in casemiro has given up. Ronaldo gave up on this lot. We lack proper leaders who gets a grip on the low standards. Amorim have said many times they are nervous out there. There is no fight left after years of failure. This team needs to get rid of all the mentally weak ones and get in highly motivated and mentally strong players.
Playing for Manchester United during their success demanded you to be mentally strong. Playing for a Manchester United that consistently underperforms and constantly having to work uphill is even tougher. This pressure I'm sure has taken it's toll on the players and they simply don't have any fight left in them. It's easier to just give up than push forward. Hence why we need to get rid of most of the team at this stage.
The reason I think people come to united and turns to shit over time is because of disease that losing disease infects them all over time. Low standards, no characters, no leaders and no drive from the veterans.
This team have many players that's given up completely on massive salaries will have a negative impact. Most of this squad has gotten used to losing and all the negative shit surrounding not achieving what's expected. The only winner left in casemiro has given up. Ronaldo gave up on this lot. We lack proper leaders who gets a grip on the low standards. Amorim have said many times they are nervous out there. There is no fight left after years of failure. This team needs to get rid of all the mentally weak ones and get in highly motivated and mentally strong players.
Playing for Manchester United during their success demanded you to be mentally strong. Playing for a Manchester United that consistently underperforms and constantly having to work uphill is even tougher. This pressure I'm sure has taken it's toll on the players and they simply don't have any fight left in them. It's easier to just give up than push forward. Hence why we need to get rid of most of the team at this stage.
The reason I think people come to united and turns to shit over time is because of disease that losing disease infects them all over time. Low standards, no characters, no leaders and no drive from the veterans.
Good post.
They are not going to sack Ruben Amorim anytime soon, I think INEOS pretty much see this season as a write off, they won't sack him regardless of where we finish because I believe they are willing to see through what needs to be done, which is a complete reset from top to bottom. We got close with Erik until they got scared by the results and he changed back. Amorim won't do that.
There’s not a manager alive who could get a tune out of this squad.
Be realistic. This is (once again) going to take time.
Season over for utd aim should be to get to proverbial 40 points then pure focus on europa and start testing the youngsters in league. Imho I would actually enjoy seeing young players being tested than watching these snowflakes play out in 3 competitions surely they couldn’t be worse
Not that they are equal, but Pep who inherited David Silva, De Bruyne, Fernandinho, Kompany, Aguero etc in his first season. Look at that list of players, we have nowhere near the quality. The City players are all in the top 20 players to have played in the Prem, and they just about got into CL. And Pep had a pre season to prepare the team too.
The first season was always going be tough, How Amorim develops into the second season should be what matters. People are stuck on the formation, when its just bad players. Pep played 433 and still needed to pay 50m each for a pair of wing backs, and we can agree that Amorim needs to do the same.