Yet they did alright on the front foot against Liverpool. We need to just accept that these players are game raisers. The manager wouldn’t have changed anything from the Liverpool to Brighton game. The players just have a very weak mentality.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
Dominate the ball it was about 50/50 possession?
I didn't even bring him up in the thread.
The relentless ones are the posters that claim our reason for 2 wins in 10 league games is because of ten hag and completely absolving Amorim.
I'm backing amorim by the way, I'm just not refusing to blame him for certain things. I did the same with ten hag but posters would cherry pick lines and make up a narrative like you've done now.
Our form under Ten Hag in a span of 10 games was never as bad as it is now. We have 4 pts in our last 6 league games. What I am saying really isn't rocket science.
Again I'll ask everyone from the "with this squad we should be top 6" crew:
How many of our players would be starters for any of the top 6 clubs?
How many even get into their squads?
I'll ask the "change the system and work on it in the summer crew":
What's the difference if we finish 13th or 8th? Why should the manager give up and try to adjust his system to please chronically lazy, underperforming and average players?
For years we've been into the same pattern. Playing reactive, instead of proactive football. We don't make teams look for answers to our style, we try to adjust to their style. That's why well drilled teams with quick passing like Brighton have been dominating us for years.
We became Moments FC and we need certain players to have a great game to produce anything decent.
We haven't been a proper team in years and years.
With all the evidence we have that our players are just a mess, made with moronic decisions and zero expertise, how can you STILL focus on the manager?
How many of our players would be starters for any of the top 6 clubs?
How many even get into their squads?
I'll ask the "change the system and work on it in the summer crew":
What's the difference if we finish 13th or 8th? Why should the manager give up and try to adjust his system to please chronically lazy, underperforming and average players?
For years we've been into the same pattern. Playing reactive, instead of proactive football. We don't make teams look for answers to our style, we try to adjust to their style. That's why well drilled teams with quick passing like Brighton have been dominating us for years.
We became Moments FC and we need certain players to have a great game to produce anything decent.
We haven't been a proper team in years and years.
With all the evidence we have that our players are just a mess, made with moronic decisions and zero expertise, how can you STILL focus on the manager?
There's is an in between option, one where the managed adapts his formation a bit more and is flexible depending on how the game is going....
It doesn't have a to be a binary polar opposite option all the time..
Exactly this
Yes, but again.
That's adapting and reacting to opposition.
This is not the pattern of domination football.
If we want the team to achieve big success, we have to raise the standarts.
We have to dominate games.
We have to make opponents worry about us. Not adjust oursleves to respond to their style because, adjusting is NOT a top team style.
There is a reason we get results against the likes of City and Liverpool.
We just try to counter their style and wait for opening. Our players raise their game, because they are playing against top team.
It's pathetic midtable team mentality and it's been here for years.
Just be patient and let the coach do the work.
I’m not changing any narratives. If the plan was to bring in Amorim without backing him then it was a poor decision.Whenever theres something bad going on the narratives always change.
You'd argue there are few less suited managers to turn things around without backing
Ironically, I think the last match also solidify United as Moments FC, just the other way around, it's those stupid lapse and howlers moments that doomed United. From what I'm seeing we were matching up Brighton pretty good up. Even when it's 1-2. Then Onana just killed any hope for a comeback. Once it's 1-3, Brighton can managed the game much better.
Also I think there's still a prevalent problem that Amorim hasn't been able to fix yet, our decision making in the final third remains awful, as well as switching plays. Maguire and Bruno was the only player in the team that can spot an opening in the opposite wing and switch play accordingly. This is an issue even during Ten Hag reign.
Anyway I still think Amorim can still come good, just need to bite the bullet and get through this season the best that we can.
It's not about finishing 13th or 8th. I think the players are mostly awful, have been saying that longer than most. That doesn't mean the manager doesn't have any responsibility.
I want to see that he can mix things up. He's too young as a manager to be stuck on this one rigid system. You can't be losing at Old Trafford and have 3 centre-backs on the pitch for the entire game.
Well said, This narrative is absolutely mental that we cannot do anything with these players and it will be a bad season, a complete write off. A manager and his coaching staff has to be smart enough not only to use the hand given to them in the best way, but should also be able to improve the players at his disposal. If there were ever a transfer ban , are we saying that Amorim cannot improve the current squad in any way over the next 1 year ? Currently, the bigger problem for me is the manager should be able to take the pressure off and exude confidence into players. However, its quite the opposite happening and players are being pushed under the rug out in the open.
Whilst that makes sense, context needs to be understood.
Right now it's obvious things are not working and we need points on the board to bring back some positivity and confidence.
We won't get that by repeating the same things that aren't working.
We need to walk before we run right now, slight tweaks and flexibility to the tactics could reap benefits.
I think, with the right signings and management you guys could've improved even further in ETH's second season. But, he made poor decisions and injuries too didn't help
I'll be honest, this is all giving vibes of Villas Boas at Chelsea.
You got a young, upcoming Portuguese coach who inherits a squad that's been built (fundamentally) around Mourinho's ideas.
The new approach just doesn't work with the existing set of players. Results go to crap. The suits seem baffled as to why and unwilling to take steps to help the man in the dugout.
Will it end the same way? Something has to give surely. If the board won't get Amorim a wingback or two, I just don't see how we can avoid continuing to drop down the table.
You got a young, upcoming Portuguese coach who inherits a squad that's been built (fundamentally) around Mourinho's ideas.
The new approach just doesn't work with the existing set of players. Results go to crap. The suits seem baffled as to why and unwilling to take steps to help the man in the dugout.
Will it end the same way? Something has to give surely. If the board won't get Amorim a wingback or two, I just don't see how we can avoid continuing to drop down the table.
That's untrue. ETHs second season, you played 433 not 4231. He moved from a double pivot to isolating an aging Casemiro in midfield with Mount and Bruno in the 8s. Those two together provide zero balance and wrecked the cohesion from your 22/23 campaign.
There was also many injuries and it seemed some mismanagement.
Amorim not coaching a system before is irrelevant. Footballs about principles regardless of the system. People like you just overcomplicate a simple game. Coaching is far too overemphasized in modern football than it actually is. This is why I feel Pep has confused a lot of football people; fans, pundits etc. The game is simple, pick a system and style which suits your players confidently perform and win matches.
Too many football manager heads nowadays
I don’t really get why we haven’t pushed hard for a couple of new players that he so evidently needs for his tactics to have any shot at being successful. We just can’t play both Dalot and Mazraoui (especially him) at wing back and expect to be good.
If we are going to not address squad issues immediately then what was the point of even hiring him. He quite clearly is not flexible and is not a coach that will just try to get the best out of what he has at his disposal.
Performances have also taken a nosedive. We were half decent against Forest and Bournemouth at times despite losing both games, we have not really been decent in a game for a while aside from Liverpool.
If we are going to not address squad issues immediately then what was the point of even hiring him. He quite clearly is not flexible and is not a coach that will just try to get the best out of what he has at his disposal.
Performances have also taken a nosedive. We were half decent against Forest and Bournemouth at times despite losing both games, we have not really been decent in a game for a while aside from Liverpool.
Seemed from the outside he had player management and possibly problems with social skills. I don't know just going off Sancho situation, body language etc
Casemiro and Ugarte are both tough tackling CDMs who don't rely on their passing range to affect games. How you can say they're totally different profiles is daft. Of course, the latter is several years away from his peak thus still developing.
My worry is Ashworth was the competent person at the club and knew this would happen. Yet somehow he was overulled by the CEO or higher ups and fired.
I think we will look back upon that as a huge error.
Couple of things.....Saying this is the worst Man Utd team in history is going to make you lose the dressing room.
Secondly, I think people are too concerned about wing backs. Yes, we need some for this system. But the biggest problem is the lack of goalscorers in the squad. That needs to be addressed. Its not just strikers. Defenders, Midfielders, Wingers can all chip in with goals. We dont have many players that can actually score a goal.
Secondly, I think people are too concerned about wing backs. Yes, we need some for this system. But the biggest problem is the lack of goalscorers in the squad. That needs to be addressed. Its not just strikers. Defenders, Midfielders, Wingers can all chip in with goals. We dont have many players that can actually score a goal.
Agre with this, changing to a 4-2-3-1 or keeping Ruud as interim would have seen us finishing 8th at best. With Amorim we are taking a chance to do better, that it hasn't worked immediately is to do with the drastic shift in tactics but also mainly because we just recently spent half a billion on average and fragile players and we are paying top player wages to has-beens and wannabe playboys.
To untangle this mess will take years and Ineos don't have the patience nor the mental stamina to standby the coach when things don't work out. He will be sacked; we will return to Moments FC by hiring someone who will pander to the players' wishes of playing on the break and we will be horribly exposed once again.
I feel like the last 12 years have been so traumatic that half the fan base have developed a fetish for having a boss who will just constantly tell us how shit we are
“Ooh yeah, tell us we’re the worst United ever…”
It’s the only way I can explain the cult like response that Rangnick, Mourinho and Amorim’s comments have generated in much of our fanbase.
I’m not a fan of it, it’s both a technique to to distract from their own failings by throwing their players under the bus (which is hardly an appealing trait) but it’s just a technique which never works in terms of driving improving performances because it guarantees losing the dressing room, or at best destroys their confidence when he should be working hard to rebuild it.
Before loads of people pile on saying “but they’re right” that’s not the point - being right about som thing doesn’t mean you automatically say it, especially if it’s going to have a negative impact. Go mental about it if needs be but keep it in house.
“Ooh yeah, tell us we’re the worst United ever…”
It’s the only way I can explain the cult like response that Rangnick, Mourinho and Amorim’s comments have generated in much of our fanbase.
I’m not a fan of it, it’s both a technique to to distract from their own failings by throwing their players under the bus (which is hardly an appealing trait) but it’s just a technique which never works in terms of driving improving performances because it guarantees losing the dressing room, or at best destroys their confidence when he should be working hard to rebuild it.
Before loads of people pile on saying “but they’re right” that’s not the point - being right about som thing doesn’t mean you automatically say it, especially if it’s going to have a negative impact. Go mental about it if needs be but keep it in house.
Now that is a lazy comparison if I ever saw one. Circumstances are so different. I wonder if those Amorim skeptics just hide and wait for a bad moment.
He showed promise during big games as well as in other games like Everton
Our squad is shit, in terms of quality, attitude, team spirit. Just look at RAshfords behavior for example
He came in during the busiest period, no pre-season, low morale
We can't buy anyone as we're broke. And, as if it was not mentioned enough, our squad is really really poor
Ok Nostradamus
What dressing room? Almost every one of them are a bunch of soft cnuts with the mental strength of a newborn child it seems. I understand what you mean, but they deserve every bit of criticism they are getting, becuase they are exactly what I described them as. I don't understand how a bunch of players like them can rock up to teams like Southampton, Wolves, Brighton etc. and think they are better, when they aren't. Every one of those teams ran more, played better passes and fought more than these weaklings who are so-called MU players.
Yep. He needs to do something in the short term to stay on.
The players aren't as bad individually as results suggest.
The issue is that they don't work well as a team.
De Ligt and Martinez are good defenders. Amad is great, Garnacho at 20 years old (and for all his inconsistencies) is clearly being looked at by Chelsea and Atletico Madrid.
Mazraoui has been a squad player for Bayern.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If we were to do it again I think we would keep Ruud on as interim to ride out the PSR issues and bring Amorim in the Summer, when he has a chance to buy some players. Amorim strikes me as a good coach, however, we are in a situation where pragmatism rather than idealism is needed, ie. sticking with "the idea" works if you have quality/experienced players not when you have a starting 11 full of inexperience and deficiencies.
Right now we need a coach to set the players up in a way which makes them hard to beat, someone who could limit the space in front of the defence and stick Casemiro in there to get the best out of his experience without making him run too far and hit teams on the counter (aka Ole ball but worse). Get us to the Summer and get a good fee for Casemiro/Rashford/Antony on the back of some performances and give the new coach room to breathe a bit.
As it stands, all those players we want rid of no one wants and we are going into every game expecting defeat. Dark times.
Right now we need a coach to set the players up in a way which makes them hard to beat, someone who could limit the space in front of the defence and stick Casemiro in there to get the best out of his experience without making him run too far and hit teams on the counter (aka Ole ball but worse). Get us to the Summer and get a good fee for Casemiro/Rashford/Antony on the back of some performances and give the new coach room to breathe a bit.
As it stands, all those players we want rid of no one wants and we are going into every game expecting defeat. Dark times.
This, 100%. You cant break a downward spiral with the same line of thinking that put you there. Different manager, different style of play, different recruitment, different use of academy players. This takes time, and costs some pain.
The squad and situation suits a pragmatist who wants to play defensively and hit on the counter. But that’s just a quick fix, any manager who wants to completely move away from that is going to tank at first and maybe not last a year.
I’ve seen people calling for Iraola, he looked like he’d be gone after 10 games at Bournemouth and he’d have huge problems here initially as well.
The most important thing at Utd now is recruitment. We need to get rids of lots of dross and buy better players who are more suited to playing in the league. That is more important than who the manager is.
Erik ten Back?
It's a poorly constructed squad that has sunk it's architects. The man who built this squad couldn't do much with it and his ceiling was deemed unacceptable for level of investment poured into his ideas. There really isn't much difference between finishing 8th or 13th, not that either is acceptable but we are blaming another victim of this fiasco when he hasn't had a chance to add even a single player.
Our striker options have less than 10 goals between them and are easy to nullify. Our defense is error prone right through to the keeper. Our midfield has only two viable options who aren't exactly compatible. All these players are on huge wages therefore no incentive to move on and we don't have the wage space to add more. It's a perfect storm, Amorim is just in the middle of it.
‘Our’
This is easily the biggest issue.
I can only assume that the board felt that things had gotten to a point with ETH where it couldn't get any worse, and that even by fitting his squad into a system that didn't suit them the results would be largely unchanged. Unfortunately that's proven not to be the case. I think we would likely have had better results in the short term with both RVN and ETH than Amorim has achieved since arriving.
That said, I really hope that the board aren't as kneejerk as they have been with the likes of Ashworth - and ETH to an extent - and that they're using Amorim's approach as a means of auditing the squad. Presuming that no serious moves happen this window, this summer is likely going to need to be the busiest we've seen. I also really hope we don't prioritise an energy sapping marketing-focused pre-season tour and instead really give Amorim time to work with the squad. I seriously doubt this will happen if we are missing out on European football and revenues are down.
So far, he is rock bottom of pretty much all percentages, compared to all other recent managers. Points per game, loss percentage, etc. etc.
I know there have been some positives, and I am not ignoring them, but surely at some point he has to show evidence of improving something?
I know there have been some positives, and I am not ignoring them, but surely at some point he has to show evidence of improving something?
We are rock bottom and you are still worried about hurting these wage thieves' egos. If they are the worst ever Manchester United team they need to prove it on the pitch, they have the opportunity to, every three or four days!
These players, we know the ones that don't try, shouldn't be pampered they should be thrown down to the reserves and have all their first team privileges revoked. We have seen it happen at Chelsea to players like Anelka and Sterling recently and that's what we should try.
Yes we made mistakes in recruitment but is that a justification for Casemiro to play like a 40 year old when he is only 32? We have top earners jogging on the pitch, demanding moves when dropped and we are seeing u justifiable errors week in, week out but let's be concerned about their feelings! Calling them out is not enough, all permissable drastic measures need to be applied.
Not sure the comment about the worst Utd team ever will inspire the players. More likely a message to the board - I hope.
Our hierarchy went to see Amourin in Portugal, “we want you its now or never…..”
Did any of them actually sit down with him and say.
If you come whats your plan?
What do you think of our players?
Will they fit your tactics?
Are you ok that we have not had a fit left back for 18 months?
You do realise we dont have a decent striker amongst our multi hundred million pound costing squad?
Oh and by the way we are totally skint so there are no funds to buy you a new player
I suspect not.
Did any of them actually sit down with him and say.
If you come whats your plan?
What do you think of our players?
Will they fit your tactics?
Are you ok that we have not had a fit left back for 18 months?
You do realise we dont have a decent striker amongst our multi hundred million pound costing squad?
Oh and by the way we are totally skint so there are no funds to buy you a new player
I suspect not.
This is the way it seems it has happened. I can see this ending badly for the wrong reasons.
The only way, as I see it, to do that is to get some performances out of them. For instance a player like Casemiro could play well enough in a defensive system to get more than the zero interest he has had so far while playing from the bench.
I understand that playing pragmatically is a "quick fix", however, let us say that we continue down this path and assume that what has happened continues (Rashford/Casemiro not playing, results being awful, setup the same) and we get to the end of the season, will anyone want those players then? Even if they want them it won't be for agreeable terms as the interested party has us over a barrel.
As I saw it before the window opened we needed 3 signings to get us into the top half (striker, lcb, a true wb) and I thought that in the summer we could strengthen further with a 10 and CM. It looks like we aren't signing anyone this window and if we don't get rid of some big earners it will limit us in the summer as well.
Something has got to give, United have to get some semblance of form back in order to sell some players. As it currently stands we are playing poker with our cards facing the wrong way round.