Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

I think he knows by now there is a handful of players there not good enough or have the quality play his system.

Just hope he gets backed now and gets to bring in his own players.
 
The stats just don’t support your take here. There’s no way on earth a team can dominate for 60 minutes end up with 40% possessions and less than half the shots/xG of the opposition. You were just caught up in the disappointment of a poor performance and that’s distorted the balance of play in your mind.

I watched the game knowing the result in advance (couldn’t watch it live) and we were only properly dominated for a spell in the first half. Other than that we were by far the most dominant team, especially after we made our subs, with Southampton only occasionally causing us problems on the break.

Not that it matters. Or makes the overall performance less disappointing. But it is reassuring that Amorim turned things round with his subs. That’s already a recurring theme and bodes well for the future under him as manager. It’s also a nice change from life under ETH where we were more likely to disimprove after substitutions.
I thought they had much the better chances and should have been out of sight. The subs did improve us but we were lucky with their poor finishing. Maybe I’m giving them too much credit for the whole game but the way they dominated midfield and went through us in the first half was worrying. Zirkzee helped by holding the ball up but tactically we were way too deep. Once we pushed forward, we had better control. Better teams would have put us to the sword in the first half like they have done.
 
They were the better team for the majority of the game. Maybe I was generous with 80 mins but perhaps until the last third, they were the better team and should have been out of sight in the first half. Tactically they were much better as well and prevented us from playing out, their press was better and had they had a decent striker they would have won. For a team with 6 points on the board all season, that is worrying.
This is only true if you assume that they should score all their big chances and keep their incredibly random corner goal, while also assuming we should not score our own huge chance and shouldn't get the handball penalty. In the end, a one goal lead for Southampton was pretty fair based on the actual chances in the first half.

United had: Huge chance for Garnacho, a few half-chances, and denied a penalty.
Southampton had: One pretty random goal from a corner, one huge chance for Fernandes, 2-3 good shooting opportunities.

Not that xG is everything, but we actually had a slight xG lead at half-time, at least according to one model.
 
This is only true if you assume that they should score all their big chances and keep their incredibly random corner goal, while also assuming we should not score our own huge chance and shouldn't get the handball penalty. In the end, a one goal lead for Southampton was pretty fair based on the actual chances in the first half.

United had: Huge chance for Garnacho, a few half-chances, and denied a penalty.
Southampton had: One pretty random goal from a corner, one huge chance for Fernandes, 2-3 good shooting opportunities.

Not that xG is everything, but we actually had a slight xG lead at half-time, at least according to one model.
I see your point but the concerning thing was how they went through us. I didn’t think it was a penalty myself.
 
If we simply don't have the players to play in this formation and not be shocking then what is the point in doing it? The standard answer seems to be that we are "embedding patterns of play". I'm just curious if anyone can see what these patterns of play are that we have started to embed. They are not perceptible to me so far, but others are more tactically astute than me.
This is where consistency and motivation comes into play. We can be good, we showed that under Ten Hag even last season we competed with Bayern at their place but we revert to type when we play games where nothing is at stake.

I'm sure in games against Liverpool and City the patterns could be seen but we can't do it consistently and that's why Amorim saw this performance coming and said this game will tell him a lot about these players. Breaking the mental block on this team will take time and he may not even succeed at it because it's a long term issue with us.
 
I see your point but the concerning thing was how they went through us. I didn’t think it was a penalty myself.
Definitely. It was a combination of Sulemana consistently getting the better of Yoro, and our midfield just being late to most things, which allowed Dibling and Fernandes to do a lot of damage. Hope the team recovers some energy before Brighton, because they won't be as forgiving up front.

On the penalty, I'd be absolutely fine with those not being given in general, but I've just seen them given so often. Ball clearly strikes the arm in an unnatural position. I'll definitely remember this one the next time we have a really weak one against us.
 
We won, but the build up through the defence to midfield is a concern for me.

We are ponderous when building up and teams know they can just man mark Ugarte and Mainoo to nullify us. Part of this is because our wing backs are predictable on the ball (especially when played on their opposite side).

The team is crying out for proper wing backs (of course) to carry the ball and be accurate with their passing, but also a midfielder who is willing to take the ball and progress it.

The current player profiles makes us really predictable to play against. Especially when we are expected to have the ball against "smaller" teams.
 
I really feel for the guy. It feels like he's been sold a pup.

Considering he was told by INEOS it was now or never, I find it hard to believe that we've beyond halfway through the transfer window and he's not been given license to get anyone in to improve things, even on loan. His system relies on wing backs and 10s being confidently taking the game to the opposition and other than Amad he's got noone.

This was an attacking team that had next to no threat before he arrived - otherwise he wouldn't have been needed and we'd still have ETH.
 
The negativity on here is hilarious at times, usually by the anti 343 brigade, those who just don't like Amorim or both.
I don’t understand how anyone isn’t won over by Amorim at the moment. Even when we don’t get the result we have been objectively playing much better, more structured and coherent team football. He said we’d see an idea and we have. Still very early days but you can see an improvement and we were never going to win the league this year anyway. Dissenters must be either spoilt or stupid.
 
I thought Southampton were good last night, we didn't look at the races for most of the match. One question - Tyler Dibling - potential future United player?? I not sure under the current system.... As a player I would say he has more potential that Garnacho & Hojland, is already better than Antony and Zirkzee... I said on a different thread, he reminds me of a young Gareth Bale.
 
I've got big faith in him but my biggest worry is how inflexible he is, and how dreadful we look going forward.

I could honestly picture a scenario where we to go down playing 3 at the back people would be still praising him for sticking to his principles like they're members of a cult.

I honestly don't care where we finish this season as long as it's not in the bottom three (which is highly unlikely anyway) but he needs to consider the impact losing has on the team's mentality, and we were so close to losing to one of the worst teams in PL history last night at home. It also means you have situations like with Yoro where he was getting destroyed all night, that's not going to help him build any confidence.

If it was any one of our post-Fergie managers last night getting that win everyone would be crowing about us relying on individual brilliance.
 
Could wide open in the middle not be because of Amorim playing three centre backs and two midfielders ? Rather than the ghost of Ten Hag?
And we know he wants his CB's to step up into the gap, which is why we play 3 at the back. That still doesn't excuse why the midfield were chasing shadows all match and losing all their duels. There's a lingering mentality issue that isn't just wiped away with the old manager being sacked.
 
I think it's fair to say this season, barring relegation, is a free hit for Amorim.

He is using players bought and trained for a fundamentally different system. Many problems still remain, not least because it's the same set of players that got us in this mess.

I would say he's sticking to his guns and has shown us a path forward if we have the nerve to stick it out rather than panicking and going back to old ways.

It's the first time I can say in a decade this is what the manager wants us to play and the players need to adapt rather than managers changing tactics on a weekly basis due to short-termism.

If he's given a couple of transfer windows and this time next season we're no further along then it will be fair to criticise him.
 
I know everyone is piling on this formation and how rubbish we look going forward.

If you look at the context, we have a bouncing board up top, which makes it impossible to build.

When you play out the back and teams press, the ST is a free man, if he can hold the ball, he can create chances for others, like what Zirkzee done when he came on.

Hojlund is the biggest problem in this team and how Amorim wants us to play.
 
I don’t understand how anyone isn’t won over by Amorim at the moment. Even when we don’t get the result we have been objectively playing much better, more structured and coherent team football. He said we’d see an idea and we have. Still very early days but you can see an improvement and we were never going to win the league this year anyway. Dissenters must be either spoilt or stupid.

A lot of them are the Ten Hag diehards who clearly thinks it's their turn to moan. Despite mere months ago crying over others criticising a failing manager. Best ignored.

Whether Amorim is successful or not time will tell but he's putting forward a vision that is surely easy for any fan to get onboard with for now. If we bring players in and still look shite next season criticism is fair but this is basically an extended preseason for us.
 
A win is a win, but losing 0-1 until the 81st minute against arguably the worst Premier League team ever is obviously not good.

I do feel for him though. He's been given a very difficult, and mostly thankless job.

Let's see if people still think they are one of the worst teams ever at the end of the season. They have booted out the manager who had them set up to fail trying to play out from the back and being caught over and over again.

I'm surprised people are surprised we struggle. There are hardly any goals in this team. We will face plenty of games like this through to end of the season where it looks like a goal won't come.
 
I expected us to maybe struggle in the final third particularly in aspects of finishing, but thought that with 2 weeks of training, we would atleast dominate possession and control as a top club should do against the 20th team in the league.

So I was really disappointed. We looked 2nd best to Southampton for atleast 70 minutes and there are zero excuses for that. I can tolerate a draw after 80% possession due to our crap forwards, but being dominated by Saints is really a kick to the guts.

Amad bailed him out, just like McTominay bailed Ten Hag out in some games. There is no sugar-coating this. The only positive was that his subs were spot on - but then, why didn't he start Zirkzee instead of Hojlund?

Even when Amad scored a hattrick, I couldn't even get excited because it didn't erase the way Saints dominated us for most of the game. It was a very disappointing night. It is as much a tactical issue as it is related to personnel and Amorim should fix this.
 
It's obvious that the formation is not a problem.
When he made the changes it clicked.

It's so simple. In the first half Mainoo and Ugarte were behind for every ball and couldn't catch the tempo of the game. Always too far away from their man.

Hojlund couldn't control or even win a single first ball. He couldn't even jump for headers.

Yoro is our youngest and quickest defender on paper, makes sense to put him against their quickest winger. It didn't work but I'm sure Harry would have been skinned there.

That's why we had problems in defence and couldn't grab control of the game.
It was individual bad performances.
Nothing to do with tactics or formation.
 
It's obvious that the formation is not a problem.
When he made the changes it clicked.

It's so simple. In the first half Mainoo and Ugarte were behind for every ball and couldn't catch the tempo of the game. Always too far away from their man.

Hojlund couldn't control or even win a single first ball. He couldn't even jump for headers.

Yoro is our youngest and quickest defender on paper, makes sense to put him against their quickest winger. It didn't work but I'm sure Harry would have been skinned there.

That's why we had problems in defence and couldn't grab control of the game.
It was individual bad performances.
Nothing to do with tactics or formation.
I disagree, tactics need to take some portion of the blame.

My worry with assessing last night, is it's easy to get caught up in the positive last 10 mins or so of what ended up being an enthralling night. The reality, if we take emotion out of it and pretend we watched two neutral teams is they had a system that almost completely nullified our setup.

Ruben was right to make subs early but it was their subs that changed the game, look at the timings for the changes. We got next to nothing out of them until they had to change up their press (Dibling, Fernandes and Adibo all went off). Hojlund, Mainoo, Ugarte were poor but the subs only made a difference once those mentioned players went off. They did not come on and immediately change things, that is the worry, that we played the worst team in the league and they basically dominated us until they had to use their bench. We did have a great chance first half with Garna but they should really have scored one or two as well, and it was clear they knew exactly how to contain us.
 
I think it's fair to say this season, barring relegation, is a free hit for Amorim.

He is using players bought and trained for a fundamentally different system. Many problems still remain, not least because it's the same set of players that got us in this mess.

I would say he's sticking to his guns and has shown us a path forward if we have the nerve to stick it out rather than panicking and going back to old ways.

It's the first time I can say in a decade this is what the manager wants us to play and the players need to adapt rather than managers changing tactics on a weekly basis due to short-termism.

If he's given a couple of transfer windows and this time next season we're no further along then it will be fair to criticise him.
Yeah, I think the future is bright IF he is given the time and money to swap out certain players for better ones. Getting some players who can score goals would be nice for start.
 
I’m frustrated for our manager, I’m mega happy for our fans and Amad.

The frustration is that there’s no depth so therefor no options. Anthony isn’t a game changer. The lack of attacking and midfield quality on the bench is shocking.
Yet the attacking and midield quality that was available played a large part in winning the game
 
We really need two attacking wing-backs for his system.
100% it's the main problem.

The first half they played as a 5-2-2-1. Just writing that formation highlights the problem. The second half they eventually started to press more and become 3-4-2-1. At some points even our back 3 were well into their half because we pushed them that far back, and we played so much better.
 
Four words: OUR FORWARDS ARE SHIT
No it's not that. They are way too young. Name one club in PL who has kids as young as our players, as their forwards.

It's a recruitment mess. Don't blame it on the kids.
 
Lord Amad. First player to score a hat trick in premier league for united since SAF left.
 
We are simply missing the vital components for this system to work. We really need another 10 (Mount seems to fit but can he stay fit) and two wing backs. Without this you can see the massive issues we had yesterday against budget opposition. Southampton dominated the middle of the pitch because we were outnumbered all the time and then our 5 at the back meant that there was no support when we did think about attacking. It was dismal.

Its a system that requires specialist players and we are missing 2 of the most important ones in the wing backs.
 
I think it was an unacceptable performance without too many valid excuses given the level of Southampton. The only real valid excuses are that he hasn't been able to train the team that much, albeit far less than the Southampton manager has. He really has to solve this performance issue before the end of the season.
 


One thing I do like about Amorim is his general resistance to retreating into bullocks.

Last night, a lack of bravery led us to have a deep defence and an ineffectual press. That actually put us under more pressure than when we actually went for it.

I'm pleased that he sees this in a clear eyed way and does not try to retreat behind BS platitudes. Recognising you have a problem is the first step to addressing it. Its refreshing after months of hearing his predecessor try to pretend there were not any problems with our set up or execution.
 
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in 2020, it looked like we had a front three in situe that would terrorise defences for the next decade, and bring us firing back to glory. Unfortunately, due to a collective responsibility of the character and mentality of the players in question, and the culture, handling of players and recruitment thereafter by club heirarchy, the landscape changed beyond recognition. We've handled the changing winds appalingly, with inexperienced and unqualified leaders making requisite decisions, and Amorim is now left with the embers.

It will take time for him to clear the dust, remove the dry rot, and rebuild as necessary. But I trust in his hands, more than any others over the past decade, to finally get this right. He has green shoots with Amad and a decent support cast in Ugarte, Mainoo and Bruno, along with a more solid defence than the days of Lindelof and AWB starting week in week out.

It's a big job, so let's have a bit of patience. These days, every missed pass, shot, tackle and game that isn't won at a canter is taken apart like a last minute cup final defeat. The reality is different of course, we've always lost easy games or dropped points we should have picked up as fatigue or injuries hit (Stoke '84, Liverpool '92, Everton '12 anyone?), and last night's performance in particular was very disappointing - but we won.

Let's hope we back this up on Sunday (It's cold enough sat at OT in Jan these days dodging water and mice, without another defeat to boot), and go on a couple of important cup runs to build some momentum. I still feel completely different now to the abject mire and mediocrity experienced under ETH. Amorim makes difficult decisions exactly when needed, he communicates effectively, his substitutions are impactful, his planning is believable, and I'll certainly continue to support him in restoring order for the forseeable future.