We didn't play 433.. not that difficult.
Garnacho, Rashford, Mainoo looked also easily more comfortable in their roles earlier this season.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
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Garnacho, Rashford, Mainoo looked also easily more comfortable in their roles earlier this season.
We get it. You’re Dutch. We should have stuck with the Dutch guy. Either Dutch guy. But come on, the idea that such a basic formation is the key to unlocking players who’ve underperformed for so long is obviously crazy.
Garnacho is young he will adapt, Rashford hasn’t looked great for nigh on 2 years and Mainoo hasn’t had the minutes.
What! You are defending a corner kick by closely marking man to man. The ball comes at you and you are not expected to jump? Regardless of what Dalot did, Martinez should done better.
It's funny people keep harping on this idea that we need a top class striker as priority.
No, we need to sort out our midfield first and foremost. We will never be able to regularly create normal chances for our striker with a midfield that seems to be allergic to holding onto the ball and passing under pressure.
For me I think we can only really tolerate a single player in the middle who has those debilitating traits. That means no more than one out of Bruno, Rashy and Garnacho should be occupying one of the four spots in the middle.
Once we have addressed the middle, thats when a specialist striker becomes a priority, as well as a top class attacking wingback I would add.
The issue of this team remains clear while very hard to solve obviously. We are trying to become a dominant team while most our so-called star players cannot dominate the ball.
No, we need to sort out our midfield first and foremost. We will never be able to regularly create normal chances for our striker with a midfield that seems to be allergic to holding onto the ball and passing under pressure.
For me I think we can only really tolerate a single player in the middle who has those debilitating traits. That means no more than one out of Bruno, Rashy and Garnacho should be occupying one of the four spots in the middle.
Once we have addressed the middle, thats when a specialist striker becomes a priority, as well as a top class attacking wingback I would add.
The issue of this team remains clear while very hard to solve obviously. We are trying to become a dominant team while most our so-called star players cannot dominate the ball.
I doubt there is any unlocking to do, the players are not good enough. Simple as that.
We looked at bit better using 4231 under Ruud and I think that system is more suitable for our squad. But we were still not a breath of fresh air...
Let's see what Amorim can do but we lack players for LCB, LWB, 2 AM and a striker. Maybe one day Dalot will provide attacking width but I doubt it. I also doubt Martinez has the pace to play LCB. Garnacho is out of form, Mount is not working as AM. There are so many mismatches. Not replacing ETH in the summer was very stupid.
Yeah, honestly does my head in, just how just about all of us “armchair” experts could see the major flaws in the squad/elsewhere, but the so called highly paid experts (Woodward & co, the managers we appointed etc) - couldn’t. Or the ones who could see it, just didn’t do enough to rectify it. And they all walked away with millions. Infuriates me.
Sorry, I’ll calm down now
As the manager said it’s better to go through this pain now and see the benefits down that line rather then going away from his principles and reverting back to a system the players are used to just to get by and get some results short term. If we do that then we’ll be back in the exact same position next season when he tries to implement the 3-4-3 system again as he said before. Obviously we’ll be able to sign players in the summer more suited to that formation but the bulk of the squad will still be the same so it’s better they get used to it now imo.
We beat Leicester (twice) and PAOK, it was honestly not that difficult. Chelsea game we were all right in. I don't think that run was all that amazing for us to draw any significant conclusions out of.
I think it's better we implement our style of play and make that our game model moving forward. Tired of not having a style of play and still being crap. Let's have an identity and build towards that.
Klopp finished 8th in his first season, but they got where they needed to.
We can't ignore certain realities though, such as the fact that we've bought so many expensive duds that we can't shift and now we have cash flow problems. The money probably isn't there for a big rebuild so the coach will have to work with what he's got. If he can't do that we'll look for a coach who can.
Mainoo has just come back from injury and wasn't exactly shining before that for United or England in the Summer.
Garnacho and Rashford were both poor under Ten Hag this season, there's been some improvement in Rashford recently.
The Sporting squad didn't fit Amorims style when he first went in but he persisted and got everyone on the same page. If anything I would say the squad he has now probably suits better.
He is literally walking them through the tactic in training sessions, drilling over and over again, playing the same way. That's the only way these systems of play can be fully implemented at this level, you have to make them play your way like it's the only way to play. Ruben said it early on, his goal is that the tactic becomes automatic and he can shout single trigger words to make full team changes.
I am surprised an Ajax fan is so stuck on positions and formations. The home of total football and all that.
The only difference between the 4-2-3-1 and Ruben's 343 is he doesn't line up in the defensive shape. Every role translates, and so far the players are picking it up.
I hope so but I see the same issues broadly as with ETH - it's easier to identify our setup now, three at the back is distinctive but the play through the middle is the same and we have the same issues in front of goal. ETH's main gripe = the squad was not fit enough, Amorim's seems to be the same. This is on the fitness teams, sports science guys and medical department and is hard to address mid season. It's early days but look at the below performances, ignoring the results, we're worse offensively and a little better defensively (although the xGA is skewed by the Spurs game + red card).
| ETH | Fulham (H) | Brighton (A) | Pool (A) | Soton (A) | Palace (A) | Spurs (H) | Villa (A) | Brentford (H) | WHUM (A) | AVERAGE |
| xG | 2.04 | 1.29 | 1.5 | 3.03 | 2.35 | 0.6 | 0.45 | 1.77 | 2.63 | 1.74 |
| xGA | 0.42 | 2.14 | 2.1 | 1.36 | 1.67 | 5.41 | 0.53 | 0.89 | 2.99 | 1.94 |
| Amorim | Ipswich (A) | Everton (H) | Ars (A) | Forest (H) | AVERAGE |
| xG | 1.27 | 1.76 | 0.26 | 1.47 | 1.19 |
| xGA | 1.99 | 0.77 | 2.97 | 0.65 | 1.59 |
The hope is Amorim can build towards something better, but warning signs are there for me regarding our ability to finish chances. This season we have not won a single game against the xG prediction, the only time looking at understat we have even got a point when we were the 'worse' team was getting a draw versus Ipswich in Amorim's first game. That is woeful. For context, Newcastle who are 1 place above us and having a similarly poor season have +12 points from where they 'should' be just going off xG. Results are obviously more complex, but it shows how bad we are in front of goal.
I agree with what you have said but I also listen to Amorim which calms my gripes.
After Arsenal, what we saw, was more control, would be interesting to see how much possession, pass accuracy etc stats are during Ten Hag and now, I would suggest we have more control.
Initially, Amorim wanted to sort out the issue of losing the ball too quickly, so we keep the ball better but we cant get past the mid block press.
He alluded to that too saying we did well defensively and in midfield but clueless up top. I hope we have been working on those patterns so we create more chances.
I wont lie... the forest game, was probably one of the few games where we were losing and I thought we could score, we created chances but they were not amazing. It also came down to some silly decision making from our players.
I wanted EtH out after the Liverpool loss, it's not an argument at all. I think these circumstances are terrible for Amorim.
Rather let an interim carry this crap season and start afresh with him in the summer.
Not sure about the 343 system either, it is no coincidence that basically no top team/top manager plays that consistently apart from Inter/Tuchel but let's see.
Garnacho started the season quite brightly, Rashford was playing quite well. Our wingers are better than are attacking midfielders, it's a bit of a shame to shoehorn them into those positions.
Mainoo wasn't great earlier this season, but topped some of the defensive stats and in a midfield 3 he has less responsibilities on the ball. It helps him.
Garnacho has his limitations but thought he started quite brightly, up until Ruud's last game. Total crap in Amorim's system so far, which we can't afford.
Don't buy for a second that that's the only difference between a 343 and 4231, because it really isn't.
Thought Rashford was playing some better football in terms of general play, he's not a 10. But likely not good enough anyway.
Mainoo's lack of passing will be a huge problem.
Depends how you set up.
Ruben the right back at RCB so Amad can be a winger, the left 10 providing more from the left and attacking that half space like an inside forward but sitting narrow rather than actually lined up on the left. The other 10 more a central figure, that's your 4 and 3 in the formation.
Modern football is not dictated by formation shape but by the instructions and role the manager dictates.
1. I don't think these players can compete for top 4 under any system.
2. An astute manager would design a system that is suitable for the squad, not working backwards by first deciding on a system, unless he thinks he has unlimited time. Liverpool went for Slot for a reason.
3. If Amorim thinks that 3421 is the (only?) way forward then he will probably need to get 4-5 new players in. That will take at least 2 windows, probably longer. I mentioned several positions and players that do not work presently, eg Dalot as LWB.
4. Upgrading your squad AND changing your way of playing is of course riskier than just upgrading your squad. Maybe the club is willing to take that risk, but we should at least acknowledge it and be aware of what we are doing. This might include no CL football next season and 1 point per game in average.
5. If I were in charge I would have hired a manager who gave me the best chance of winning the EL, even if it was just a 7 month contract.
I dont think switching to a 343 was a particularly good plan. I've said for a long time that chopping and changing every 2 years really doesn't help. But its done now, so theres not much for it.
I think its pretty different in a lot of positions too. I can definitely see how it would suit Martinez less to have to defend the channels much more. I can see how Bruno having one runner next to him would suit him less than one either side of him and how not being a great dribbler will hurt him more in this set up. I'm not sure it suits Zirkzee that much.
Its done though.
I think its pretty different in a lot of positions too. I can definitely see how it would suit Martinez less to have to defend the channels much more. I can see how Bruno having one runner next to him would suit him less than one either side of him and how not being a great dribbler will hurt him more in this set up. I'm not sure it suits Zirkzee that much.
Its done though.
Yes, at home this season we've generally been ok (Spurs being the exception and obviously half of that game was with 10 men). Even the Pool game, apologies I see listed it as away by mistake, we threatened with decent chances and, similarly to Forest, it was player mistakes which cost us gravely.
I feel like Amorim will need to become a bit more LVG like this season, using possession in non threatening areas to control a game and trying to smash it into the heads of players like Bruno and Garnacho that they need to recycle possession if a chance is not on. Easier said than done. I agree, though, with more control we can be a somewhat boring but difficult team to beat with the personnel we have and climb up the table.
1. Agree but top 6 yes, top 4 with a few additions and subtractions
2. True and I argued this point under ETH, you make the most out of the players you have before you work towards a change, however the comparison between us a Liverpool is not great, Slot came into a well established and successful system and group of players, any manager following ETH was coming into a team and system that had been completely dysfunctional for 18 months, in addition I think that if Amorim thinks this is the right way he has to be given time to make it work or to decide it doesn't and adapt.
3. No matter what system we play we need 4-5 players minimum, the only real addition that is a must is a LWB but then we needed a replacement at LB for Shaw/Malacia regardless of what system we play, we needed a second striker and signed Zirkzee and we still need a second striker, Amorim's system has not actually changed a lot in terms of what we need in terms of numbers, profiles maybe but it is more likely that a player brought in to meets Amorim's player profile is more likely to be a fit in more systems due to needing to be physical, aggressive in the press, good on the ball and have a great attitude, not sure that we would be stuck with specialist players.
4. We have looked better in parts than we have at any time in the last 18 months, unfortunately it is either in attack or defence, we have looked much better in phases, we are averaging more than 1 point per game on average, we have played 2 very decent and one excellent team in the PL, too early to start panicking.
5. Unless you are hiring Ancelotti for 7 months then the chances of a caretaker being successful are low especially at this club, we could have maybe kept Ruud until the summer but then Amorim is a fantastic prospect better he gets this season as a write off to shape his team and identify what he needs to take us forward than throwing away the season and starting again in the summer.
I agree with the premise, but he's come into the club at a time when the fixtures are relentless and looking at our next few, it's simply brutal. Barely any easy 3 points, and we're lingering at the bottom of the table. It's a seriously bad time to implement this system with this bunch of players, where as if he started the season here we'd be in a much better position now. I'd say INEOS are still kicking themselves he didn't, and the further we plummet down the table the pressure to abandon his principles will be monumental.
If the fans shut up, there's no pressure, he is doing exactly the thing he promised to do - we have to be patient now.
I simply don't care if we finish 7th or 16th but we imply the right principles and continue to develop players within the system.
I just wonder if he's come in and has been shocked beyond belief at how bad this squad of players actually are though. I'm not so sure he's expected such a bad start, despite his promise. There's no point in implementing the system now, if more than half of the players won't be here much longer and are rubbish. Seems like a waste of time, rather than starting fresh next season with some more talent in the squad.
Why would you appoint a coach who has been very successful at implementing a system with certain principles, only to then tell him:
"You think you know a thing or two about coaching a football team? Rip it up. We want you to set the team up in this way and to coach a system that you have very little experience in implementing".
If Amorim abandons his principles, then there was zero point in hiring him. It should not/can not happen.
It doesn't work like that honey. If you hire a 3-4-3 specialist you let him get his 3-4-3.
If you hire a tiki-taka specialist you let him to do that.
If you hire a Sam Allardyce you let him do his magic.
Etc.
Whatever route you take, you adapt and work for that structure.
It will be a gradual process but most of them will have to go. I'd keep about 8 or 9 but listen to offers for the rest.
Hopefully we can get good money from player sales which will help enormously with the rebuild.
But for the time being, they will have to adapt to the system as best they can.
They can't all be replaced in one year and switching back to 4-2-3-1 will lead to zero progress.
Hopefully we can get good money from player sales which will help enormously with the rebuild.
But for the time being, they will have to adapt to the system as best they can.
They can't all be replaced in one year and switching back to 4-2-3-1 will lead to zero progress.
Nobody is calling for him to rip it up, that's not the argument here. The argument is rather going full speed ahead with it until he has the talent to reap it's rewards, is the best idea. More than half of this squad probably has to be scrapped. Is the time and energy actually worth it until the beginning of next season?
Of course it is worth it. You coach them and they improve in it. New players should improve your performance with it. It's like any system. Playing 433 or 442 or 4231 doesn't make Onana stop that shot or doesn't make Martinez clear a ball when he thinks it's going out, rather than it dropping in the net. Those are mistakes irrespective of the system.
The patterns of play and general tactics have actually progressed really well in a short period of time.
It won't be. It's not like changing system will improve results suddenly in a way his current system won't. You work through the teething issues now as this season is pretty much a lost cause and you treat it like another season of churn, because that is inevitably what it is when you sack your manager in mid November. Hopes of achieving anything in the league is most likely gone. You build for future seasons and hope you can get some good cup runs this season, but generally are working for next season already.
Amorim is working to which players are useful to him and which are not. Who can adapt, who can improve, where he should adapt his system for the premier league. It's extremely useful to have a "free" season essentially before next season he actually starts caring about position in the table.
Sorry what? Are you serious. Of course his job was to jump. If the ball comes into your area it's your job to clear it.
ETH failed because he gave up on his system.
We need a bold a manager that will demand that things are done his way. We certainly don't have talented enough players who we should be making accommodations for.
We dont have to buy system specific players. Great players can play in any system. Players play for club and country in different systems. We need a new LB regardless if it's 3 or 4 at the back. We dont have players that are good enough to compete regardless of the system.
Yes I’m serious. Believe it or not defenders are given different jobs when defending corners. Hence I said what I said.
ETH failed because he could not sign a decent player if his life were dependent on it.
You can see, if you rewatch it, Martinez is marking a different player but they cross. He does ok, in that he's doing enough to essentially foul him but he's overpowered. He should not be jumping, he should be doing what he's doing just better. If you want to criticise him that would be fair (he can either go down and play as though he's been taken out, or more forcefully push the player and risk a peno). It is a wonderful corner and header, if you pause it on contact it's come in a metre or so gap, at pace, between Dalot (who is like 6ft 1 and De Ligt who is 6 ft 2) and the player is getting good contact whilst being obstructed by Martinez. Sometimes you have to accept it's a good goal.
Unlike the other two, which were a joke.
Also ETH did not give up on his system, he stuck to it like a madmen until it killed him. First season is not his system, second season onwards was whatever his plan was.
It's probably been debated already but once Ruben has finished his current rotation to see which players he can trust the most who will be the three at the back he'll play in his strongest 11? I feel Martinez in danger of missing out unless his form suddenly picks up.
Yet another loss for Sporting.....
With our financial woes it's very likely that most of next season's squad will be the same as this so, imo, it's better to start his new system as soon as possible.
I think Amorim will turn to our youth team sooner rather than later if the senior players do not wake up. Better to have eager moldable minds to adapt to a new style of play and run with endless energy.
I do like how he's seemingly taken a fortnight to hate the players as much as we do. It usually takes longer for them to con the new manager.