Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach

[awop]

Shots on target always an issue. And corners. Wtf do they do to win that many corners?

I think our crossing positions from Saka and Martinelli are a lot deeper than most teams. Route 1 is for the wingers to try and dribble their defender to cross. Only when doubled up or when having a bad game do we resort to crossing from the edge of the area. That means it either goes in the box or, more often than not, deflected for a corner.
I don't know where to look for the data but i'd bet Saka wins more corners than Martinelli because he beats his man a lot more often.

 

[bgoodall]

This forum - “These players are terrible”

Also this forum - “how could we possibly ever lose to another PL team”

Can we please be patient with this guy.

 

[romufc]

Last game:

Our stats weren't bad at all aside from shots, obviously... but if you told me we'd be playing Arsenal away and beat them in passes and maintained equal possession I would have called you crazy. Especially with a new system implemented.
For comparison, here are the 2 away games under Ten Hag in PL (2023):

Shots on target always an issue. And corners. Wtf do they do to win that many corners?

Exactly, once we get control, I believe that we will improve going forward too, its just that Amorim is probably trying to get our defence and passing issues sorted first.

With corners, we give away too many silly corners, Rashford for example for the 2nd goal.

 

[trevor newnham]

We have to give Amorim time. We have to give him the tools. We have to get rid of some tools. I am willing to write off this season if I feel We are making progress on the field which I think we are

 

[EnviedRed]

ETH failed because he could not sign a decent player if his life were dependent on it.

So then you are admitting that we don't have the players for a 4-3-3 because the players aren't good. So in that case we should let the manager implement the system that he is comfortable with. The most successful managers are the ones who have a clear style of play and stick to it.

We played a back 4. We were awful in most metrics with a back 4 and that's why ETH was fired. ETH couldn't get the most out of the players he signed with a back 4. So why exactly are switching back to something that we already proved that we were awful at?

Fans are comfortable with a back 4 because it's familiar not because it's the best thing and that's not a reason to switch back.

 

[The Brown Bull]

We have to give Amorim time. We have to give him the tools. We have to get rid of some tools. I am willing to write off this season if I feel We are making progress on the field which I think we are

You are far to realistic and sensible for this joint!

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

So then you are admitting that we don't have the players for a 4-3-3 because the players aren't good. So in that case we should let the manager implement the system that he is comfortable with. The most successful managers are the ones who have a clear style of play and stick to it.

We played a back 4. We were awful in most metrics with a back 4 and that's why ETH was fired. ETH couldn't get the most out of the players he signed with a back 4. So why exactly are switching back to something that we already proved that we were awful at?

Fans are comfortable with a back 4 because it's familiar not because it's the best thing and that's not a reason to switch back.

Martinez and Dalot are clearly better in a back 4 than their present roles. Dalot as LWB is a major weakness. We were also poor playing 4231 due to poor players due to miserable recruitment. And 3421 won't change that, only better recruitment.

Signing a 4231 manager would probably have been a faster way to success, but maybe Amorim is a generational manager opportunity?

 

[redshaw]

Last game:

Our stats weren't bad at all aside from shots, obviously... but if you told me we'd be playing Arsenal away and beat them in passes and maintained equal possession I would have called you crazy. Especially with a new system implemented.
For comparison, here are the 2 away games under Ten Hag in PL (2023):

Shots on target always an issue. And corners. Wtf do they do to win that many corners?

They get so many corners because they have much more touches in our box. I can't recall the exact number but it was like 35 to our 6, they also had around 5 blocked shots to our 0.

Shows how stats that you've shown can mislead to think it was an even game, while we did ok to a point, they were all over us in reality and swamped our goal producing a lot of corners and danger while we did nothing with our possession.

 

[tenpoless]

They get so many corners because they have much more touches in our box. I can't recall the exact number but it was like 35 to our 6, they also had around 5 blocked shots to our 0.

Shows how stats that you've shown can mislead to think it was an even game, while we did ok to a point, they were all over us in reality and swamped our goal producing a lot of corners and danger while we did nothing with our possession.

Indeed. But I expect improvement than straight up outplaying a much better drilled opponents than us. The ball possession % at least shows you we tried to control the ball instead of hoofing it forward every time. We're at the point where not losing the ball mindlessly is already an improvement.

 

[redshaw]

Indeed. But I expect improvement than straight up outplaying a much better drilled opponents than us. The ball possession % at least shows you we tried to control the ball instead of hoofing it forward every time. We're at the point where not losing the ball mindlessly is already an improvement.

Yes I think our manager is starting well and we should progress well this season and eventually into a top team in 1-2 years.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

We are making progress on the pitch already. Remember a month ago, how did the team play. That was completely nonsensical, chaotic football. Just be patient to see the development. If Ruben can’t get more out of this squad this season, we should move on to someone else.

I would have disagreed with this in the past, but not now, I admit the squad is full of players that aren't that good, however, Amorim has to work his magic and get these lot to play better, the loss against Forest was terrible marred by horrendous mistakes, but i like how his style is developing, hopefully by early 2025, he will be able to make it work, as in, make this team more consistent and pick up as much wins as possible to climb up the league table, it doesn't matter where we end up but how Amorim performs as a manager will be important to determine if he stays or leaves.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Everyone should keep analysing every movement and criticise when players turn left instead of right, and whatever happens don't think about the big picture.

Duck Sake!

Judge him after a season or two even.

 

[Sarni]

Martinez and Dalot are clearly better in a back 4 than their present roles. Dalot as LWB is a major weakness. We were also poor playing 4231 due to poor players due to miserable recruitment. And 3421 won't change that, only better recruitment.

Signing a 4231 manager would probably have been a faster way to success, but maybe Amorim is a generational manager opportunity?

I actually think Martinez is better suited for a back 3 when you can have him next two physically superior defenders that compensate for his lacking of physicality. I back 2 you’d need the other center half to do all the work that requires it.

 

[alexthelion]

We are making progress on the pitch already. Remember a month ago, how did the team play. That was completely nonsensical, chaotic football. Just be patient to see the development. If Ruben can’t get more out of this squad this season, we should move on to someone else.

I take it you mean players and not the manager.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

 

[EnviedRed]

Martinez and Dalot are clearly better in a back 4 than their present roles. Dalot as LWB is a major weakness. We were also poor playing 4231 due to poor players due to miserable recruitment. And 3421 won't change that, only better recruitment.

Signing a 4231 manager would probably have been a faster way to success, but maybe Amorim is a generational manager opportunity?

Martinez is better in a back 3 because it actually provides him more cover since it switches to a back 5 out of possession.

Dalot is a major weakness but that's not because of the back 3, he is a limited player and we will need to upgrade the LB regardless of the system. I have seen Dalot make Sunday League errors multiple times in a back 4. We don't have a great LB or LWB at the club except for Shaw who is never available.

These players failed in a back 4 so badly that the manager got fired. They already proved they aren't capable in a back 4, we don't need to try that experiment again. It's non-sensical to go back. City play in a back 3 out of possession.

Pep and Klopp had growing pains in their systems too but they stuck with it and eventually succeeded. Ten Hag failed because he compromised his entire system. Again, none of our players are so good that the manager should be comprosing his tactics for them.

You want a back 4 because it's familiar and comfortable to you not because it will bring any success considering we failed miserably in a back 4. I get it, we played in a back 4 under Sir Alex so that's the 'United Way' but times have changed and we need to change with them..and if we don't we will keep getting left behind.

 

[nickm]

1. I don't think these players can compete for top 4 under any system.

2. An astute manager would design a system that is suitable for the squad, not working backwards by first deciding on a system, unless he thinks he has unlimited time. Liverpool went for Slot for a reason.

3. If Amorim thinks that 3421 is the (only?) way forward then he will probably need to get 4-5 new players in. That will take at least 2 windows, probably longer. I mentioned several positions and players that do not work presently, eg Dalot as LWB.

4. Upgrading your squad AND changing your way of playing is of course riskier than just upgrading your squad. Maybe the club is willing to take that risk, but we should at least acknowledge it and be aware of what we are doing. This might include no CL football next season and 1 point per game in average.

5. If I were in charge I would have hired a manager who gave me the best chance of winning the EL, even if it was just a 7 month contract.

You are Dan Ashworth and I claim my £10.

Seriously, that is not an unreasonable take, but I think INEOS are after a rebuild not a reset - ie more ambition. They don't want a short term fix, which is what I think you are describing, they want a complete overhaul on new foundations. I think the goal is more: Title in 3 years, not EL in 7 months.

 

[DJ_21]

1. I don't think these players can compete for top 4 under any system.

2. An astute manager would design a system that is suitable for the squad, not working backwards by first deciding on a system, unless he thinks he has unlimited time. Liverpool went for Slot for a reason.

3. If Amorim thinks that 3421 is the (only?) way forward then he will probably need to get 4-5 new players in. That will take at least 2 windows, probably longer. I mentioned several positions and players that do not work presently, eg Dalot as LWB.

4. Upgrading your squad AND changing your way of playing is of course riskier than just upgrading your squad. Maybe the club is willing to take that risk, but we should at least acknowledge it and be aware of what we are doing. This might include no CL football next season and 1 point per game in average.

5. If I were in charge I would have hired a manager who gave me the best chance of winning the EL, even if it was just a 7 month contract.

Did conte change his style and preferred formation when going to spurs who never play 3/5 at the back? Managers won’t change styles unless there 100% that it won’t or can’t work. The formation isn’t the problem. We see teams all over Europe successful with it, teams like Inter use the same system. The players are the issue. Keeping players like Rashford who decide when to turn up and not.

 

[nickm]

I dont think switching to a 343 was a particularly good plan. I've said for a long time that chopping and changing every 2 years really doesn't help. But its done now, so theres not much for it.
I think its pretty different in a lot of positions too. I can definitely see how it would suit Martinez less to have to defend the channels much more. I can see how Bruno having one runner next to him would suit him less than one either side of him and how not being a great dribbler will hurt him more in this set up. I'm not sure it suits Zirkzee that much.
Its done though.

There are no ideal plans with these players. But we have lacked an identity for too long and at least we now are getting one.

 

[romufc]

I will be honest, I didn't see this coming where fans are questioning the formation a few games in when the formation has shown that it can be implemented.

We look in better control of football games but like with every other formation we try, our defenders are useless at times, our midfield is clueless running back and our forwards only know how to run into players.

Martinez watching and shielding the ball into the net has nothing to do with formations, or him not being able to jump for a header. Onana getting fooled by a straight ball is nothing to do with formation.

Or Bruno giving the ball away cheaply, Dalot trying to shoot from 30 yards out or Garnacho falling over himself.

It is clear that the players are the issue.

 

[P-Nut]

I will be honest, I didn't see this coming where fans are questioning the formation a few games in when the formation has shown that it can be implemented.

We look in better control of football games but like with every other formation we try, our defenders are useless at times, our midfield is clueless running back and our forwards only know how to run into players.

Martinez watching and shielding the ball into the net has nothing to do with formations, or him not being able to jump for a header. Onana getting fooled by a straight ball is nothing to do with formation.

Or Bruno giving the ball away cheaply, Dalot trying to shoot from 30 yards out or Garnacho falling over himself.

It is clear that the players are the issue.

As soon as we don't win every game the fans question everything.

 

[The Mitcher]

Did conte change his style and preferred formation when going to spurs who never play 3/5 at the back? Managers won’t change styles unless there 100% that it won’t or can’t work. The formation isn’t the problem. We see teams all over Europe successful with it, teams like Inter use the same system. The players are the issue. Keeping players like Rashford who decide when to turn up and not.

He briefly went four at the back during his Chelsea tenure before they re-signed David Luiz.

 

[bosskeano]

i do think you'll see him hit the South american market to get more versatile type of players to suit his style of football

this team was built more suited for english style football than one with a bit more flair and creativity

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Martinez is better in a back 3 because it actually provides him more cover since it switches to a back 5 out of possession.

Dalot is a major weakness but that's not because of the back 3, he is a limited player and we will need to upgrade the LB regardless of the system. I have seen Dalot make Sunday League errors multiple times in a back 4. We don't have a great LB or LWB at the club except for Shaw who is never available.

These players failed in a back 4 so badly that the manager got fired. They already proved they aren't capable in a back 4, we don't need to try that experiment again. It's non-sensical to go back. City play in a back 3 out of possession.

Pep and Klopp had growing pains in their systems too but they stuck with it and eventually succeeded. Ten Hag failed because he compromised his entire system. Again, none of our players are so good that the manager should be comprosing his tactics for them.

You want a back 4 because it's familiar and comfortable to you not because it will bring any success considering we failed miserably in a back 4. I get it, we played in a back 4 under Sir Alex so that's the 'United Way' but times have changed and we need to change with them..and if we don't we will keep getting left behind.

It is not mainly about the system it is the lack of quality players.

The decision has been made, Amorim is our manager and he achieved success in Portugal. He will play 3421 even if I think our squad is better suited to 4231, but we didn't evolve using that system.

If we can get a LWB and a AM in January then the 3421 will look much better than it does currently. And if we can play Mazraoui, Yoro and Shaw then we have a top 4 defence.

Shopping list:

1. LWB
2. AM
3. Striker
4. CM
5. LCB

 

[romufc]

He will play 3421 even if I think our squad is better suited to 4231, but we didn't evolve using that system.

How has anyone managed to even work this out.

We looked crap for all of 18 months with a 4-2-3-1 system. Its got nothing to do with systems, there are alot of players that don't suit to playing elite level football, that is the main issue.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

How has anyone managed to even work this out.

We looked crap for all of 18 months with a 4-2-3-1 system. Its got nothing to do with systems, there are alot of players that don't suit to playing elite level football, that is the main issue.

That is why I stated that at the very top of my comment.

 

[Bowlcut11]

i do think you'll see him hit the South american market to get more versatile type of players to suit his style of football

this team was built more suited for english style football than one with a bit more flair and creativity

Even defensively, if we had have went for Caicedo at that time we were heavily linked, he would be perfect in this system in one of the midfield two.

Plus, as you say, attacking players with a bit of flair to their game - not Antony-esque though.

 

[bosskeano]

Even defensively, if we had have went for Caicedo at that time we were heavily linked, he would be perfect in this system in one of the midfield two.

Plus, as you say, attacking players with a bit of flair to their game - not Antony-esque though.

there is no flair to his game....he's more grotesque and a one trick pony

 

[EnviedRed]

It is not mainly about the system it is the lack of quality players.

The decision has been made, Amorim is our manager and he achieved success in Portugal. He will play 3421 even if I think our squad is better suited to 4231, but we didn't evolve using that system.

If we can get a LWB and a AM in January then the 3421 will look much better than it does currently. And if we can play Mazraoui, Yoro and Shaw then we have a top 4 defence.

Shopping list:

1. LWB
2. AM
3. Striker
4. CM
5. LCB

Regardless of the system we need better players. If we switch to a back 4 we still need better players but these players have already shown they aren't capable of playing in a back 4 so yea let's change formations. And the fact is that none of our players are good enough for the manager to compromise for.

I can't fathom how anyone can think we are better suited to a back 4 considering Ten Hag got fired using that system and we awful for about 18 months. You are comfortable with that because you are used to it but that doesn't mean it's better. Just no.

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

Why aren’t there any threads regarding rumours of potentially tectonic shifts in club’s policy? Like transfer listing half of the squad? Starting line-up leaks? Is there any South Korean style martial law enforced on RedCafe? This news can be only discussed (better say listened) on the Official old-timers podcast? Watching all type of YT videos (even the ones I hate) and the news…Usually didn’t; have to because everything was on the Caf. Am I missing something? Censorship? May be I got blind? Pretty scared to open a thread.

People seem to be interested in Trump presidency, bombings in Afghanistan, religion and movies…than in Manchester United Football Club which happen to live through pretty interesting times. I am lost

 

[Bowlcut11]

there is no flair to his game....he's more grotesque and a one trick pony

There's flair....it's just redundant because he follows up 30 step overs with cutting inside and hoofing it into row Z

 

[Coops73]

Why aren’t there any threads regarding rumours of potentially tectonic shifts in club’s policy? Like transfer listing half of the squad? Starting line-up leaks? Is there any South Korean style martial law enforced on RedCafe? This news can be only discussed (better say listened) on the Official old-timers podcast? Watching all type of YT videos (even the ones I hate) and the news…Usually didn’t; have to because everything was on the Caf. Am I missing something? Censorship? May be I got blind? Pretty scared to open a thread.

People seem to be interested in Trump presidency, bombings in Afghanistan, religion and movies…than in Manchester United Football Club which happen to live through pretty interesting times. I am lost

so am I after reading this

 

[Fanta Stick]

Why aren’t there any threads regarding rumours of potentially tectonic shifts in club’s policy? Like transfer listing half of the squad? Starting line-up leaks? Is there any South Korean style martial law enforced on RedCafe? This news can be only discussed (better say listened) on the Official old-timers podcast? Watching all type of YT videos (even the ones I hate) and the news…Usually didn’t; have to because everything was on the Caf. Am I missing something? Censorship? May be I got blind? Pretty scared to open a thread.

People seem to be interested in Trump presidency, bombings in Afghanistan, religion and movies…than in Manchester United Football Club which happen to live through pretty interesting times. I am lost

What you need is cultural learnings of red caf for make benefit glorious nation of Kazakhstan.

 

[gaffs]

Last game:

Our stats weren't bad at all aside from shots, obviously... but if you told me we'd be playing Arsenal away and beat them in passes and maintained equal possession I would have called you crazy. Especially with a new system implemented.
For comparison, here are the 2 away games under Ten Hag in PL (2023):

Shots on target always an issue. And corners. Wtf do they do to win that many corners?

Sure. But Arsenal didnt play very well and still looked like they only team that was ever going to win the game. You can parse stats all you like but even when 0-0 at HT, United were 7-1 to win the game. Long odds considering we were "decent" until then.

 

[gaffs]

Why aren’t there any threads regarding rumours of potentially tectonic shifts in club’s policy? Like transfer listing half of the squad? Starting line-up leaks? Is there any South Korean style martial law enforced on RedCafe? This news can be only discussed (better say listened) on the Official old-timers podcast? Watching all type of YT videos (even the ones I hate) and the news…Usually didn’t; have to because everything was on the Caf. Am I missing something? Censorship? May be I got blind? Pretty scared to open a thread.

People seem to be interested in Trump presidency, bombings in Afghanistan, religion and movies…than in Manchester United Football Club which happen to live through pretty interesting times. I am lost

Can we get some specifics please?

Very nice!

 

[gaffs]

Martinez is better in a back 3 because it actually provides him more cover since it switches to a back 5 out of possession.

Dalot is a major weakness but that's not because of the back 3, he is a limited player and we will need to upgrade the LB regardless of the system. I have seen Dalot make Sunday League errors multiple times in a back 4. We don't have a great LB or LWB at the club except for Shaw who is never available.

These players failed in a back 4 so badly that the manager got fired. They already proved they aren't capable in a back 4, we don't need to try that experiment again. It's non-sensical to go back. City play in a back 3 out of possession.

Pep and Klopp had growing pains in their systems too but they stuck with it and eventually succeeded. Ten Hag failed because he compromised his entire system. Again, none of our players are so good that the manager should be comprosing his tactics for them.

You want a back 4 because it's familiar and comfortable to you not because it will bring any success considering we failed miserably in a back 4. I get it, we played in a back 4 under Sir Alex so that's the 'United Way' but times have changed and we need to change with them..and if we don't we will keep getting left behind.

This issue wasn't that Ten Hag compromised his tactics for his players because our players were do good.

He compromised because they are so bad.

Remember not being able to string three passes together when playing out of the back v Brighton and Brentford at the start of ETH first season?

 

[gaffs]

We are making progress on the pitch already. Remember a month ago, how did the team play. That was completely nonsensical, chaotic football. Just be patient to see the development. If Ruben can’t get more out of this squad this season, we should move on to someone else.

So you are giving him 5 months?

 

[city-puma]

So you are giving him 5 months?

Yes. From his resume, he did it twice.

 

[Tallis]

I think we are a lot better than where we were under ETH. Yes, it was painful to watch us again Forest but we lost because of

1) Individual mistakes. -We had 72% possession and 7 shots on target vs their 3 shots on target. The mistakes also came from our better players - Bruno, Onana and Martinez. This is different, for instance, from when we lost against Spurs or Liverpool where we made individual mistakes but also got outplayed.

2) Some players being out of position - the worst of which is Dalot who I think really cost us. He was in space for most of the 2nd half but couldn't make it count. Both our goals were solid team goals - one from the middle and another from the right wing suggesting that our attacking play is getting better.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

I think we are a lot better than where we were under ETH. Yes, it was painful to watch us again Forest but we lost because of

1) Individual mistakes. -We had 72% possession and 7 shots on target vs their 3 shots on target. The mistakes also came from our better players - Bruno, Onana and Martinez. This is different, for instance, from when we lost against Spurs or Liverpool where we made individual mistakes but also got outplayed.

2) Some players being out of position - the worst of which is Dalot who I think really cost us. He was in space for most of the 2nd half but couldn't make it count. Both our goals were solid team goals - one from the middle and another from the right wing suggesting that our attacking play is getting better.

Totally agree, I can see Amorim actually improving how the team plays structurally, bit more solid overall and better in controlling the game, individual mistakes aside, we don't get dominated out ran at in midfield.

It's really important for us that Amorim somehow improves this lot, because that will mean he will be able to do a lot better with better players but first he has to prove it with this lot, a tall ask I know but we need it.