You're embarrassing.
You're embarrassing.
Van Persie is surely a bad example considering how his injuries have hindered his entire career?
Only world class player? Even currently we have 3 world class players (Vidic, Rooney and Nani) at this football club. Even if you don't rate Nani that highly, Vidic is as world class a player as we have. Not to mention the likes of Rio, Ronaldo, Evra, Scholes, Giggs etc in the recent past.
So clearly we're all quite used to watching world class players every single week and Rooney's nothing unique int that aspect.
Not sure what you mean? I'm only talking about this season?
Noticed that myself. Weird eh..
No my mistake, I misread your post.
You've just listed a load of players who we've watched throughout their peak - and hence, most consistent - years as footballers.
And Nani. Who may or may not be as good as Rooney, depending whose opinion you agree with in this thread.
Oh and Cristiano Ronaldo. Currently being hailed by many as equally as good, if not better than someone with a good claim to be the best player in the history of the game.
I think given Wayne plays in a much harder role that shows up very obviously if you're even slightly out of form is swaying this. Everything goes through Rooney when we play, if he's even at 85% we notice it. One good shot or cross from Nani a game is enough to overlook an otherwise lacklustre showing because he's a winger.
I don't think that's entirely accurate. I don't see how Rooney's role is harder. In recent times Nani's threat has been far more than one good cross. His ability to beat men and chose the right pass is giving us a constant threat. He's helping to create space for others. When he's having a bad game he might not produce his best crosses or shots but he's doing the basics right and still able to be a threat. Rooney looses his passing both short and long. His touch isn't as good nor his decisions. The difference with Rooney though, much like Gerrard at Liverpool or Lamps, they can both have poor games but because of who they are if they do one positive thing, like getting a goal, whether a pen, open play or anything and usually their performance will be glossed over.
Some of the highest rated players ever have played in Rooney's position so I doubt think that argument holds water.
He's the link between midfield and attack, I don't want to get in to a side argument but in my personal opinion thats the hardest role in the team to do well. For me it's the way when Nani is playing badly (the Newcastle game for example), not just Nani, but any winger (Valencia against Barcelona for instance) you just don't notice them because they're totally out of the game.
If Rooney is having a bad game, everything goes through him anyway because he's the link between our attack and midfield and because he's passing in the most congested area of the pitch it looks worse than his performance.
Actually that is the main point, the teams most talented players generally play that role, Messi, Silva, Rooney, Gerrard, Scholes 2002ish, Kaka at Milan etc. because a lesser player couldn't and it's the position on the pitch where you want your best player.
It's flawed logic though, because those players and many more (Totti, Del Piero, Bergkamp) were always rated above their wingers!
It's more logical that a player is rated higher BECAUSE he's in a position where he is more involved.
If we were to sell Nani and Rooney now who do you think would fetch more? I can give you a clue, it wouldn't be the Portuguese winger.
Ask any neutral person who they would take from the Man Utd team and it would be Rooney. We have an odd way of looking at our own players, David Silva has gone through a really poor patch recently, it happens.
It would be if you could put any player there and they'd be rated higher, the fact is you couldn't. Rooney could make a better fist of it out on the wing than Nani could being the playmaker for Man Utd. Barcelona don't play Messi in the middle now because they want to make him look better, the fact is they play better with him there and because Sanchez, Pedro and Iniesta can do a job wider.
What? I don't think Rooney ever had a good game on the left when Ronaldo was still here so that argument is a bit senseless really.
I disagree, quite a lot actually. Besides, even if that was 100% true it wouldn't alter my statement on it's own.
But who's to say nani couldn't play there? He looked excellent when he went up top, I think he could adapt there better than Rooney could out wide. Also just because you put one of your best players there doesn't mean he is your best. Ronaldo never played there but he was undoubtedly better than Rooney.
More to the point whilst on his game Rooney is a top top class player when he isn't he is usually poor. A silva might have a quiet game but he's getting the basics right he might just not be getting that final ball right. Rooney though can't make basic passes and if he's not offering that and as we know his shooting can go to shit he's not doing much. Nani on the other hand can have a quiet game but he'll still be causing a problem to the opposition. He'll still get past players and open up some space for someone else or himself, it just night not come off.
That's my point. At his best Rooney is currently better than nani but nani isn't far behind. Right now though nani plays much more consistently than Rooney and as I said I can see nani getting better quicker than I can see Rooney suddenly start becoming a much more consistent player.
Rooney's had plenty of good games from out wide. FA cup final, Spurs at Old Trafford and the away leg at Arsenal in the CL semi immediately spring to mind. The final against Barca is the only time I can ever recall him being very poor there. Still a huge waste of him as a player but his record there was good.
Rooney was played out of position to suit the tactics and formation Fergie wanted often in 04/05, 08/09(especially) and sometimes in 07/08. He won alot of praise from football figures for this during these periods because he showed a capability to do a good job for the team and also be productive and it resulted in United winning plenty of football matches. He's never going to be his dominant best consistently there, it's a position which negates several of his strengths, but in terms of performing a role for the team to suit the manager's desired formation, he did very well. Performances such as Porto when he tracked back with discipline and hard work ethic were every bit as valuable to Fergie as the times, such as Spurs, when he was unplayable.
There is a big difference. For a player as good as Rooney, when his form goes he becomes as technically poor as a league 1 player. Nani never becomes that technically dreadful even on a bad day.
You shouldn't be. Rooney at his best is about as good as Ronaldo and Messi. At his worst, he looks out of place in a championship team technically. He also still has the problem of having bursts of incredible form rather than consistent top form with a few off days.
Nothing is ever 100%, I never said it is always the case. However, Nani isn't close to being as good as Ronaldo.
See that is where I disagree, Silva pisses the ball away less than Rooney when he's off his game, but that's largely down to the style of the team, Rooney's passing game is much more direct because that is how we play. Silva's relentless 85% pass success is padded by lots of short passes because City play a game based more on possession than we do. He is however a better dribbler so he doesn't get caught on the ball as often.
I personally don't see Nani getting any more consistent than he currently is, Giggs never did and the fact is being a winger is generally a hit and miss role. Very few genuine wingers ever become more consistent than Nani is now.
Silva is just an example, the best players though like him, ronaldo messi etc whoever they don't lose as much to their game as rooney does. And they're always a threat bad game or not. With Rooney you know he's unlikely to score if he's not playing well. I've already talked about his passing. Nani on the other hand in my opinion good game or not is still a big threat.
I don't think nani needs to get much more consistent he just needs to do what he's doing and keep improving. If he does that then we might have another situation where we need to alter the team to allow nani to have more influence. He certainly has the talent. That's the point. I can see nani becoming better if he keeps going as he is. I just can't see how Rooney is going to be able to change that much. His problem is clearly a mental one which is usually much harder to get over in.
I disagree on all three accounts. 1) Look at some of Ronaldo's performances against Barcelona (although this is now slightly out of date
). The only one of those 3 that doesn't is Messi, and if you're expecting Rooney to reach Messi levels of consistency then I think we have different expectations. 2) this is trotted out a lot but I don't think it's especially true of Rooney. Villa and Eto'o generally go through one dry spell (6-7+ games) a season at least. 3) I don't agree with that either, in fact I can generally tell you within the first 5 minutes if Nani is going to score.I'm not sure where Nani is going to get better at personally, he's probably at his physical peak for a wide player and I don't think he's going to develop Ronaldo levels of awareness to increase his goal tally significantly.
Out of interest what do you think Nani could improve on to move him away from the conventional winger he is currently to something we'd have to adapt our system to? Ronaldo added 25 goals a season to his game, do you see Nani doing this?
I disagree on all three accounts. 1) Look at some of Ronaldo's performances against Barcelona (although this is now slightly out of date
Even if Ronaldo has picked up his performances recently, you're picking out a set of games against just one team. Even if he's not scoring Ronaldo is still a threat. He doesn't lose anywhere near as much of his game as Rooney does. And that's the same for a lot of the best players. Out of the top players Rooney is the one who's most prone to such drastic changes. I'm not talking about scoring. Goals aren't everything. Look at suarez. He's not scored much but his performances have been very good. Rooney though not only will go on runs where he doesn't score but he'll go on runs, or bits of games where his play is way below what you would expect.
Again with Nani it's not about scoring or getting an assist but performance. Nani for me in these last two seasons has had a much more consistent game than Rooney. He might be quiet for a game but he's still effective. Look at VDV, he might have a below par game where things don't come off, but his general interplay is still good. Rooney looses too much.
Well Ronaldo eventually got given a lot more freedom, I reckon in the same way if Nani was given more freedom he'd score, maybe not as much but still get a lot more than he does now. I.e. take Lampard, in a 442 lampard won't score as much as a 433, because he has less freedom. I'm not saying we should give Nani more freedom though if he continues to push on then we might have to. I think Nani has to keep doing what he is and if he does his delivery will keep getting better, as will his decision making. He clearly has got a good shot so if he keeps working on that and his composure in the box then he's got a lot going for him. You refer to him as a conventional winger as if it's a bad thing. Can you not be a winger and be the best player? Are Ribery and Robben at Bayern not their best players?
Also it's not like Nani can just play as a traditional winger. That's where we play him cause of our current system. He could easily fit in to a 433 or as a drifting role like Rooney does. He might not play the same way but he has his own style. I don't think he's any less talented than Rooney. Rooney is currently a better player but as I said the gap is closing.
As I said right now, week in week out Nani is playing at a better level than Rooney is. Rooney might have a game where he's unstoppable but on average I don't think he's done as much. Like I said it's not just about goals or assists. As a threat and a part of the team I think Nani has been providing more. He works equally as hard but unlike Rooney he doesn't suffer from random losses of ability. Now if Rooney can work on his consistency than he might hold of Nani's challenge, but if he keeps going like this, form in patches then I can see Nani catching up with him and feasibly surpassing him.
I think we just have a fundamental disagreement on Rooney's level of performance, your Suarez example seals this for me. I don't think Rooney playing badly is anywhere near as bad as Suarez playing badly and his poor games have been as frequent as Rooney's.
I say conventional winger when I refer to a winger in a 4-4-2, Giggs was one, Ronaldo up until 2007 was one and he was our best player, it is neither good nor bad. Nani could play in a 4-3-3, but there are several reasons why he wont, namely we have too many good strikers and too few central midfielders.
Personally for me Rooney is the first name on the team sheet, he's very important to how we play if he's playing poorly or not. I don't buy into the "he turns in to a league 1 player", I've had a season ticket at Hartlepool for more than a decade, I've seen League 1 strikers... he could lose a foot and be better than Adam Boyd.
Yeah guess we just have a fundamental disagreement on Rooney. As I said when he's bad, whilst he's not league 1 standard or anything, his drop is far more obvious than other top players in my opinion. May be as you say it's more obvious because of his position but I think there are somethings that he gets wrong that a top player shouldn't get wrong. Simple passes and touch. For me he looses them far too much when he's not playing well.
As I said though he is our best player still, I've never said otherwise. I'm just saying that Nani is closing the gap and he is definitely good enough to become as good if not better. If Rooney can improve his consistentcy then it'll make it a lot harder but I can't see why he'll suddenly become more consistent, where as Nani is already improving and has been for a while now, there's no reason to think he'll stop. Rooney has been around this level for a while now.
However in the case of both players I don't think this season has been the easiest for them in terms of being able to show what they can do, purely because the team has been so unstable through injuries. There have been some below par performances as well, again mostly from Rooney out of those two imo, but injuries has been the main issue. Hopefully the rumours of Nani's injury aren't true as it looks like we're getting a more stable team. With that I think both players will pick up their games.
Without meaning to spark up the whole debate again, Rooney has had one of the worst, most wasteful halves of football I've seen of him in a United shirt, yet he's scored. And it's not like it was a lucky goal, he did what Torres fails to do - gamble. He saw Hernandez and Giggs getting into the area, where he knows the ball can pop up, which it did.
And when Nani can play as poorly as this and still produce what really matters, I'll start considering him on Rooney's level.
And when Nani can play as poorly as this and still produce what really matters, I'll start considering him on Rooney's level.
You think Nani's never played crap but set up a goal or scored? You're mad.
I'm not saying that. There was a lot of talk of 'bottom level' in this thread. This for me is Rooney's bottom level, he can't be much more wasteful than this. However when Nani is at his bottom level, I don't think he is capable of producing anything.
Oh please.
Clearly you don't think Nani's bottom level is as low as it is. I refer you to the game at home to Galati, and I'll leave it there.
A whole game?
Well you've just completely swayed my opinion now.
Well you've just completely swayed my opinion now.
You think this was Rooney's bottom level?
He normally never produces anything of note when he's at his worst. Pointless bump, really.
He normally never produces anything of note when he's at his worst. Pointless bump, really.
That's not true.
Rooney's bottom level is freaking awful. He even forgets how to control the ball.
Even at his bottom level, he contributes. He might not be scoring or setting up goals but he still contributes.
Nani is better, and hasnt held the club to ransom
The thing is Nani can still produce when he's well off form, as can Rooney, and there's many times when both don't. But for me Nani's bottom level isn't as bad, which is the difference.
On a side note he should have come on earlier.
See, I'll be looking more closely now. The Norwich game he started brightly, made the goal, but, like the rest of the team, stopped playing. Never looked like doing a thing. And he's been quiet for a while now, so I'll be looking out for his creativity in his off games.
What people need to remember is Rooney is a forward so he is bound get score more than Nani even in cases of poor games.
Nani is by far the better player for me, especially as Nani isn't even played in arguably his best position in my opinion.
I would not even say Rooney is world class, to me a world class player would be able to cut it in any league or competition. Rooney can't cut it internationally and I'm sure that he would be a flop playing for a Spanish team in La Liga.
The only teams Rooney would be worth a huge amount to are English teams in my view, because he is a very 'British' player.
I would not even say Rooney is world class, to me a world class player would be able to cut it in any league or competition. Rooney can't cut it internationally and I'm sure that he would be a flop playing for a Spanish team in La Liga.
The only teams Rooney would be worth a huge amount to are English teams in my view, because he is a very 'British' player.