Rooney vs Nani

[Sir A1ex]

I think all that is a bigger part of it than being duped by some temporary form on Nani's part.

I think you can apply the same to his form in the last couple of years.

As has been much discussed, he's dismissed as shit by a large number of United fans, a larger number of oppo fans and pretty much every journalist, on the basis of the last season and a half. And I really don't think his constant stream of injuries, contract issues and patchy form represent how good a player he is (not how good a player he could have been, but how good a player he is). Ok, it's possible that in those couple of seasons he "played above his level" a little, but not nearly as much as he's played under his level since then.

 

[Adebesi]

I think you can apply the same to his form in the last couple of years.

As has been much discussed, he's dismissed as shit by a large number of United fans, a larger number of oppo fans and pretty much every journalist, on the basis of the last season and a half. And I really don't think his constant stream of injuries, contract issues and patchy form represent how good a player he is (not how good a player he could have been, but how good a player he is). Ok, it's possible that in those couple of seasons he "played above his level" a little, but not nearly as much as he's played under his level since then.

You dont see many people on here saying he is shit to be fair. I would call "Nani is our best winger" as close to a consensus opinion as exists on the caf, and that is in the face of the glaring lack of trust our manager seemed to show in him even when he apparently was fit. How many times have I read people bemoaning the fact that Valencia gets played week in, week out despite shite performances, while Nani is dropped after one bad one? So you have to add SAF to the list of people who werent sold on him, or else rationalise that lack of appearances - it cant all be down to injuries, he has to have been fit sometimes.

Anyway, I hope the reports he is leaving turn out to be wrong, he stays fit and Moyes shows some faith in him, I still think he could have something of a renaissance.

 

[Sir A1ex]

You dont see many people on here saying he is shit to be fair. I would call "Nani is our best winger" as close to a consensus opinion as exists on the caf, and that is in the face of the glaring lack of trust our manager seemed to show in him even when he apparently was fit.

True, but he's not popular among the group of United fans who like to phone in to talk radio, or tweet / post comments on BBC sport etc.

 

[Liam147]

Or two years, but let's not quible over 19 months.

It wasn't two years though. If that was him performing consistently for two years then he's not the footballer many think he is. He started the 2011-12 season pretty well, but that was only about half a season of typically 'good' performances. There was that middle spell of the 2010-11 season after we'd come to terms with Rooney being shit and wanting to leave, and him coming back to his best near the end. He was at his best and most reliable then.

But you're talking about a couple of spells over a few months in a career spanning over half a decade. Anyone who thinks Nani has been something other than underwhelming is just wrong. When he came for about £20m I'm afraid you've got to expect more than we've got from him.

 

[CantonaVeron]

I think people underrate Rooney on here in general, purely from a playing on the field point of view he is one of our best players ever and may well end up having the best stats, goals wise anyway. He is a Utd legend and has been a unbelievable investment for us and shows the importantance of buying young great players even if they cost big. I think we'll see it with Jones to. Back to Rooney I think a few have let a couple of incidents effect their view of Rooney, his agent certainly isn't the best but primarly he is here because he is super ambitious and wants to win things, he isn't a Utd fan and why would he be with the songs we sing about the scousers, he can appear off the field quite shelfish at times which interesting is the complete opposite of how he is on the field. I like to look at contributions on the football pitch and its the same with Ronaldo who wanted away a fair bit while he was here or Keane trying to push his wages up or Eric kicking a fan, or Rio missing his drug test or not signing his contract to me that doesn't take away the fact I have loved watching this level of footballer play for us and to me that means all those players, including Rooney are Utd legends.

 

[Adebesi]

True, but he's not popular among the group of United fans who like to phone in to talk radio, or tweet / post comments on BBC sport etc.

No, or my dad. Who neither calls radio talk shows or tweets. But rants about Nani a great deal. Or used to when he was more visible.

 

[Sir A1ex]

It wasn't two years though. If that was him performing consistently for two years then he's not the footballer many think he is.

Think we'll have to agree to disagree on this, but the fact is he consistently delievered for the whole of 2010 and 2011:

At the end of 2009-10 he played 14 league matches, only missing 2 after a red card, and got goals or assists in 8 of them.
From the start of 2010-11 he had a run of 28 league matches, in 18 of which he got a goal or assist, never going 2 matches in a row without doing so. That sounds a pretty consistent spell to me.
Up till xmas the season after that, he had a run of 17 league matches in which he got 6 goals and 9 assists. The Carragher got to work.

In total from Jan 2010 to December 2011 - that's 2 years - he played 63 matches, and got 17 goals and 39 assists. Sorry, but that's a phenomenal return from a winger.

 

[Sir A1ex]

No, or my dad. Who neither calls radio talk shows or tweets. But rants about Nani a great deal. Or used to when he was more visible.

No, nor the grumpy old United fan in our office, who also loves a rant about him.

With Nani it's always polemic.

 

[Plugsy]

You can't be consistent if the argument is that he had a good 12-18 months. By very definition that's inconsistent as he's been at the club for getting on seven years now.

'Inconsistent' doesn't mean 'has never played well or had a good season'. It means he hasn't been able to maintain that level of performance and the fact everyone who claims he is consistent keeps pointing to the same 12-18 month period proves that.

Pointing to a short period where he was consistent just underlines how inconsistent he's been.

 

[Liam147]

Think we'll have to agree to disagree on this, but the fact is he consistently delievered for the whole of 2010 and 2011:

At the end of 2009-10 he played 14 league matches, only missing 2 after a red card, and got goals or assists in 8 of them.
From the start of 2010-11 he had a run of 28 league matches, in 18 of which he got a goal or assist, never going 2 matches in a row without doing so. That sounds a pretty consistent spell to me.
Up till xmas the season after that, he had a run of 17 league matches in which he got 6 goals and 9 assists. The Carragher got to work.

In total from Jan 2010 to December 2011 - that's 2 years - he played 63 matches, and got 17 goals and 39 assists. Sorry, but that's a phenomenal return from a winger.

Admittedly I didn't realise his stats were as good as they were. But they do need to be taken with a pinch of salt at times and personally I'd say this is one of these times. His all-round game just wasn't good enough for me on a regular basis, despite what appears to be regular contributions according to his statistics.

You can't be consistent if the argument is that he had a good 12-18 months. By very definition that's inconsistent as he's been at the club for getting on seven years now.

'Inconsistent' doesn't mean 'has never played well or had a good season'. It means he hasn't been able to maintain that level of performance and the fact everyone who claims he is consistent keeps pointing to the same 12-18 month period proves that.

Pointing to a short period where he was consistent just underlines how inconsistent he's been.

Also this.

 

[Sir A1ex]

You can't be consistent if the argument is that he had a good 12-18 months. By very definition that's inconsistent as he's been at the club for getting on seven years now.

Well for a start you need to work on your maths - 2 years is 24 months, but I can see why it suits your point to understate that.

The analysis of "only 2 good seasons in 7" certainly fits the easy narrative, but it's massively over-simplifying things to suit that agenda.

I don't disagree that he was inconsistent in his first 2 seasons, but he was only in his early twenties. Ideally you'd want him to mature a bit quicker, but it's hardly unusual for a winger to be patchy when they're young. Once he hit 23 or 24 he started really showing what he could do, just as you'd hope he would by that age.
The Carragher injury brough that to a shuddering hault, and frankly it's been one thing after another since then. Every time he's looked like getting a run of games something gets in the way - he's had countless niggly injuries, and when it's not that there's stuff like the Madrid red card and all the contract speculation etc, which seem to effect him.

There's no doubt that he's not a player who can just drop into the team and get a guaranteed performance out of - he clearly is relatively fragile mentally. He recovers from career set-backs in much the same way as he recovers from being fouled... annoyingly slowly and stroppily. But given a run in the team, without injury or other distractions, the evidence is that he's a consistently great player. And having got the contract out of the way, then that's the player we should have on our hands, unless there are long-term physcial problems that mean his hamstrings will never be right or something.

 

[Sir A1ex]

But they do need to be taken with a pinch of salt at times and personally I'd say this is one of these times. His all-round game just wasn't good enough for me on a regular basis, despite what appears to be regular contributions according to his statistics.

Well I guess that's pretty subjective really.

Even at his best he was inconsistent within a match, which some people don't like. He'd certainly do plenty of shit things - for every 20 yard screamer there were 3 attmpts that went into row Z, and we'd pull our hair out at some of his crosses, only for him to then put one right on a striker's head. But that's true of most great players, we used to say the same about Ronaldo until he started scoring 40 goals a season (which admittedly Nani isn't giong to do!). For me, if he scores one and sets one up, he can feel free to blaze 3 more over and shank 3 corners into the first defender every match.

At the end of the day, he's very much a "moments of magic" player, rather than the type where you know what you're going to get every time he gets the ball (ie Valencia). This does mean there's a fine line between him being on form and off form - the performance will largely be the same, only when he's on form, those 2 or 3 game changing moments tend to turn up. Whereas it's easy to see whether Valencia is on or off form, as he either runs past his man and gets a cross in throughout the match, or lamely hits it into the shins of a defender 2 feet away all match.

Bringing the conversatoin back to the thread, the thing that would surprise many a few years back is that Rooney has become more like the latter type of player. He plays well throughout a match, but the moments of genius are few and far between.

 

[Bilbo]

Never rated Nani, and I think we should sell him. He is frustrating to watch, and I imagine that he would be even more frustrating to play with.

If someone offered £15m I'd snap their entire arm off.

 

[Adebesi]

Well I guess that's pretty subjective really.

Even at his best he was inconsistent within a match, which some people don't like. He'd certainly do plenty of shit things - for every 20 yard screamer there were 3 attmpts that went into row Z, and we'd pull our hair out at some of his crosses, only for him to then put one right on a striker's head. But that's true of most great players, we used to say the same about Ronaldo until he started scoring 40 goals a season (which admittedly Nani isn't giong to do!). For me, if he scores one and sets one up, he can feel free to blaze 3 more over and shank 3 corners into the first defender every match.

I think youve hit the nail on the head here for why it took me a while to warm to him. Even when he was at his best I used to get frustrated by [I type this tentatively and with reservations, remembering some old arguments I have had on here on this subject] his "decision making". i.e. his inclination to hit a ridiculous shot into row z when someone was in a better position for the pass. He always had that. But it is interesting, of all the disagreements, arguments and debates I have had on here over the years, the ones about Nani probably had the biggest impact on me in terms of winning me over to another point of view. I recognised that this was a necessary price to pay for someone who "makes things happen", that we have lots of other players who will pick the "right" pass, but that there is a value in itself to having a player that will pepper the goal with shots and try the less obvious option.

Its why two people can have such different opinions on him after watching the same game, some people remember the amazing goal, others the three shots he cocked up or other little bits of what they perceive as selfishness. Its horses for courses I guess. Its a shame because that is the side of his game that would have improved with age I think, his decision making. He could still have been the player most inclined to take risks, but mitigated that risk a little with more experience. If it hadnt been for injuries derailing his career.

 

[Liam147]

Well I guess that's pretty subjective really.

Even at his best he was inconsistent within a match, which some people don't like. He'd certainly do plenty of shit things - for every 20 yard screamer there were 3 attmpts that went into row Z, and we'd pull our hair out at some of his crosses, only for him to then put one right on a striker's head. But that's true of most great players, we used to say the same about Ronaldo until he started scoring 40 goals a season (which admittedly Nani isn't giong to do!). For me, if he scores one and sets one up, he can feel free to blaze 3 more over and shank 3 corners into the first defender every match.

At the end of the day, he's very much a "moments of magic" player, rather than the type where you know what you're going to get every time he gets the ball (ie Valencia). This does mean there's a fine line between him being on form and off form - the performance will largely be the same, only when he's on form, those 2 or 3 game changing moments tend to turn up. Whereas it's easy to see whether Valencia is on or off form, as he either runs past his man and gets a cross in throughout the match, or lamely hits it into the shins of a defender 2 feet away all match.

I guess at that point it depends on what you want. I always want(ed) Valencia in the team over Nani as you knew what you'd get. Even when he's having a poor game he's still built like an ox and has a great work rate. Too much of Nani's game is speculative. Thirty yard shots and uncertain crosses. Valencia will typically keep things simple but is effective (or at least he used to be). I felt and still feel the same applies to Rooney.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Its why two people can have such different opinions on him after watching the same game, some people remember the amazing goal, others the three shots he cocked up or other little bits of what they perceive as selfishness.

It's also exactly what we're lacking going forwards at the moment.

 

[mic.m]

Nani had a 12-18 months period where he was great. and everyone thought he would keep improving and become world class but it never happened. 1 good season out of 8 is not acceptable imo. He may be our most exciting player since Ronaldo but just like Anderson he has squandered way too many opportunities. I remember when they were signed in 2007 it was said they would be the successors to Scholes and Giggs and yet 5 years later they still couldn't keep the 2 +35 year olds out of the team. It's time to give the next generation Powell, Januzaj, Lingaard etc a chance to prove their worth.

 

[Amar__]

lol, where do people find these 5 months, 18 months, 2 months periods? He had easily two and a half years of very good football, how does that make just 18, 6, or 5 months?

Nani's performances by season:
- 2009/2010 - second half of this season he was one of our best players, especially from the attacking lot, having more than 10 assists(only counting second half of the season), and around 5 goals in that period, including goals against Arsenal, Spurs and Bayern.
- 2010/2011 - our player of the season, no point going through it.
- 2011/2012 - not as good as season before, but still very good season overall, scoring 10 goals(same as season before), and assisting 17 times. That season, he scored against the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and City.

In these two and a half years, he had lot of MOTM performances against the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Tottenham, and Bayern,and not just one time, if anything, his performances were better in big games than against weaker opponents.

How is this exactly 5 months period?

 

[Sir A1ex]

Nani had a 12-18 months period where he was great. and everyone thought he would keep improving and become world class but it never happened. 1 good season out of 8 is not acceptable imo.

Jesus, how badly do you have to lie to try and prove your imaginary point?

We already proved that 2 years is a lot more than 12-18 months, or one season, and now you're claiming he's been here for 8 seasons! He's half way through his 7th, you twerp.

 

[bosnian_red]

lol, where do people find these 5 months, 18 months, 2 months periods? He had easily two and a half years of very good football, how does that make just 18, 6, or 5 months?

Nani's performances by season:
- 2009/2010 - second half of this season he was one of our best players, especially from the attacking lot, having more than 10 assists(only counting second half of the season), and around 5 goals in that period, including goals against Arsenal, Spurs and Bayern.
- 2010/2011 - our player of the season, no point going through it.
- 2011/2012 - not as good as season before, but still very good season overall, scoring 10 goals(same as season before), and assisting 17 times. That season, he scored against the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and City.

In these two and a half years, he had lot of MOTM performances against the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Tottenham, and Bayern,and not just one time, if anything, his performances were better in big games than against weaker opponents.

How is this exactly 5 months period?

It's more of a 2 year period because he started getting injuries in the second half of 2011/12. He was consistent between January 2010 and January 2012 though, always getting loads of assists and having big performances in big games. Since then, he hasn't had a run in the side because of all the injuries and whatever other reason, so it's a bit funny how people write him off. Give him a run of games like Valencia has had, and as he showed in the past, he will deliver.

 

[bosnian_red]

Nani had a 12-18 months period where he was great. and everyone thought he would keep improving and become world class but it never happened. 1 good season out of 8 is not acceptable imo.

Well his first season he was a young, exciting winger making his move to a new league and had a pretty good season, getting subbed on in the champions league final as well and scoring a penalty. Couldn't expect much more from a new signing, 7 or 8/10 season. Second season was a little disappointing though, but still not that bad. Probably a 6/10. First half of the 3rd season was a bit shit, and then suddenly something happened and he turned class. Was our best and most important player after Rooney in the second half of that season, same with the season after that, and the first half of the year after that. So for 09/10, 11/12, and 12/13, he was very good for the vast majority of it. Over that period you could say 9/10. Since then, he's a season and a half littered with injuries and not getting proper chances. 1 good season out of 8? Please. He's had 2 years where he was performing at a world class level, 2 years where he was promising and looking good, but not at his best. He's only had 1 truly poor season, or 2 if you count being littered with injuries as a shit season.

 

[Amar__]

It's more of a 2 year period because he started getting injuries in the second half of 2011/12. He was consistent between January 2010 and January 2012 though, always getting loads of assists and having big performances in big games. Since then, he hasn't had a run in the side because of all the injuries and whatever other reason, so it's a bit funny how people write him off. Give him a run of games like Valencia has had, and as he showed in the past, he will deliver.

Yeah, he was injured for around half of games, but still he played around 10 games out of 20ish in premierleague in second half of that season, having few good displays too. And it's not like he never had any decent periods before or after those seasons I named, but I am just counting those as those were seasons he was consistent season after season, so it would be unfair if I count that as poor half of the season, because he still had his contribution.

Jesus, how badly do you have to lie to try and prove your imaginary point?

We already proved that 2 years is a lot more than 12-18 months, or one season, and now you're claiming he's been here for 8 seasons! He's half way through his 7th, you twerp.

It's really ridiculous, what's next? Look at him, he came here as a teenager and he is in his last thirties and he had two good months at United.

 

[psychdelicblues]

You dont see many people on here saying he is shit to be fair. I would call "Nani is our best winger" as close to a consensus opinion as exists on the caf, and that is in the face of the glaring lack of trust our manager seemed to show in him even when he apparently was fit. How many times have I read people bemoaning the fact that Valencia gets played week in, week out despite shite performances, while Nani is dropped after one bad one? So you have to add SAF to the list of people who werent sold on him, or else rationalise that lack of appearances - it cant all be down to injuries, he has to have been fit sometimes.

Anyway, I hope the reports he is leaving turn out to be wrong, he stays fit and Moyes shows some faith in him, I still think he could have something of a renaissance.

Maybe in this thread, but I suspect the consensus in general is that a young 18 year old in his first full season at the club, is United's best winger.

 

[Adebesi]

Oh yes, I don't really think of him as a winger but fair point.

 

[Liam147]

Amar do you realise you're backing up our points but justifying it differently? Fine, Nani didn't play well for five months, but you're proving his inconsistency, which at the end if the day, is what most of us are arguing anyway.

 

[Sandikan]

what kind of thread is this!

Everyone knows any Nani thread has to quickly dissolve into a Valencia v Nani contest

 

[Sir A1ex]

Certainly at the moment, yes. But I'd play Nani 2011 over today's Januzaj. Mind you, if Adnan keeps gong like he is it won't be long before that changes, so Nani doesn't have much time to reclaim that Best Winger title!

 

[mic.m]

Jesus, how badly do you have to lie to try and prove your imaginary point?

We already proved that 2 years is a lot more than 12-18 months, or one season, and now you're claiming he's been here for 8 seasons! He's half way through his 7th, you twerp.

No need to get emotional dickface. Still 2 seasons out of 7 is still disappointing.

 

[Amar__]

Amar do you realise you're backing up our points but justifying it differently? Fine, Nani didn't play well for five months, but you're proving his inconsistency, which at the end if the day, is what most of us are arguing anyway.

Since when is two and a half seasons in a row of good football inconsistency?

 

[Liam147]

Since when is two and a half seasons in a row of good football inconsistency?

The fact that he's not done it before or since. And I don't think it was two and a half seasons at all. If he'd been anywhere near as consistent as you'd like to think there'd be no questions over his place in the team, but he's struggled to hold down a place for over 18 months now.

 

[Theon]

Amar do you realise you're backing up our points but justifying it differently? Fine, Nani didn't play well for five months, but you're proving his inconsistency, which at the end if the day, is what most of us are arguing anyway.

He's always very defensive over Nani, it's pretty strange but happens all the time.

 

[Liam147]

He's always very defensive over Nani, it's pretty strange but happens all the time.

Ah. One of those is he? I won't bother then. Absolutely pointless arguing with people like that.

 

[bosnian_red]

The fact that he's not done it before or since. And I don't think it was two and a half seasons at all. If he'd been anywhere near as consistent as you'd like to think there'd be no questions over his place in the team, but he's struggled to hold down a place for over 18 months now.

Valencia seems to be first choice in the eyes of both Sir Alex and Moyes, yet most fans rightly think that he's shit and he's been shit for the last 2 years. I don't think basing what the managers think are the best options on the wings is that good of an argument in this situation... Edit: Not trying to say the fans know more of course, but rather that seeing as both Fergie and now Moyes are picking Valencia non stop and that he's made more appearances then any outfield player bar Evra this season, makes our winger selections slightly strange, to say the least. Not something you can use to back up your argument.

Anyways, to back Amar up a bit, it was 2 years of consistent quality displays. Since then, he's had a lot of injuries and never had a consistent run of games to get form back. That's all it is. Last season Fergie picked Valencia as our winger for almost the entire season, while Nani kept getting niggling injuries, but when the biggest game of the season came around, it was Nani who started it. There were no questions about his place in the team back then, and he only missed out on starting the champions league final in 2011 because he picked up an injury before it and was off form because of that injury. He's never had a run like what Valencia has now, where he's just not performing despite being given loads of chances to perform. With him, he always struggled for consistency because he'd have 1 sub appearance, or one start and then the next 3-4 on the bench, and then back in the team and expect him to perform. He's not a squad player. He can be a great starting option on the wing, but only if we don't drop him every time he has a poor performance.

 

[Theon]

Valencia seems to be first choice in the eyes of both Sir Alex and Moyes, yet most fans rightly think that he's shit and he's been shit for the last 2 years. I don't think basing what the managers think are the best options on the wings is that good of an argument in this situation...

I think Moyes and Ferguson know a lot more about football than any of us. So of course what Liam said is a decent argument.

Most United fans that I know do not rate Nani the way that you, Amar and a few others do.

 

[Liam147]

Valencia seems to be first choice in the eyes of both Sir Alex and Moyes, yet most fans rightly think that he's shit and he's been shit for the last 2 years. I don't think basing what the managers think are the best options on the wings is that good of an argument in this situation...

If we made a list of the worst statements ever posted on this website, I'd have a number of entries, but this tops the list. United fans who've never been involved in the game at any sort of level with the few exceptions who've played at an amateur level know more than David Moyes and Sir Alex Ferguson. Wow.

 

[bosnian_red]

If we made a list of the worst statements ever posted on this website, I'd have a number of entries, but this tops the list. United fans who've never been involved in the game at any sort of level with the few exceptions who've played at an amateur level know more than David Moyes and Sir Alex Ferguson. Wow.

I think Moyes and Ferguson know a lot more about football than any of us. So of course what Liam said is a decent argument.

Most United fans that I know do not rate Nani the way that you, Amar and a few others do.

That's not really what I meant though. Most on here are genuinely confused as to what makes Valencia an automatic starter for us so its not fair to say that Nani not playing is a slight on him when he really should be playing.

I added an edit explaining it. You're criticizing Nani for not being able to hold on to a place, but when you look at who's been first choice in his position, it's been a player who has been so horrendously off form for 2 years now and has played more then any other outfield player apart from Evra even though he's been shit. So its clearly something other then what they provide offensively because Valencia's done feck all in that respect.

 

[Adebesi]

What are you talking about? SAF knows feck all about wingers.

 

[Theon]

What are you talking about? SAF knows feck all about wingers.

And Moyes signed Fellaini, so he must be shit.

 

[Theon]

That's not really what I meant though. Most on here are genuinely confused as to what makes Valencia an automatic starter for us so its not fair to say that Nani not playing is a slight on him when he really should be playing.

The fact that he hasn't made himself first choice for two successive managers completely contradicts the view that he's much better than Valencia though. Why else wouldn't he displace him? Forget Ferguson and just think about Moyes, he's had a disastrous start to his reign as manager so why would he keep the far better player on the bench. He simply must not rate Nani at the level you do.

 

[Liam147]

That's not really what I meant though. Most on here are genuinely confused as to what makes Valencia an automatic starter for us so its not fair to say that Nani not playing is a slight on him when he really should be playing.

How can you possibly know this?! Jesus the arrogance (ignorance?) is astounding. We all like to have our opinions, but at the end of the day, the manager typically knows better than us average fans. At the moment you're edging towards "I know more than Moyes" which is incredible.

You don't see them in training. What if Valencia trains like an absolute machine (not too hard to believe when you see the size of the guy's arms) whereas Nani's quite unprofessional, or perhaps just doesn't do it in training? What if Nani doesn't quite suit the system Moyes is playing? What if Nani doesn't feel fully fit? What if Nani's being rested for a few games? What if they've fallen out?