Rooney vs Nani

[Zen]

Well in the five seasons they played together....Giggs outdid Cantona twice, once they had the same stats and the other Cantona had the edge.

As I said Overmars and Pires consistently had more goals and assists than Bergkamp.

Thats just using the best two examples in the Premiership. You sure it's garbage bro?

You're just getting desperate with the Gerrard example...since well he isn't a winger, might as well have just used Rooney as the example. And I acknowledged Totti never really played with a great winger, neither did Fabregas, except a fading away Pires slightly.

 

[I'm always right]

As I said Overmars and Pires consistently had more goals and assists than Bergkamp..

I'd like to see the stats to back this up please.

All I know is that Bergkamp has the most Premier League assists for Arsenal 147, and 120 goals on top of that.

Personally I think you've just pulled that guess out of your arse, a quick look tells me that:

97-98 - Overmars 16 goals, Bergkamp 22 goals
97-98 - Overmars ? assists, Bergkamp 15 assists

98-99 - Overmars 12 goals, Bergkamp 16 goals
98-99 - Overmars ? assists, Bergkamp 13 assists

99-00 - Overmars 13 goals, Bergkamp 10 goals
99-00 - Overmars ? assists, Bergkamp 10 assists

Overmars must've been hitting some assists then if he "consistently had more goals and assists" than Dennis

But that aint the point here, the point here is that a guy in the hole has the advantage, not the winger. Why do you think Messi and Ronaldo were moved in from the wings if they were at an advantage out there?

Would like the stats on Eric and Giggs too...

 

[I'm always right]

The goals:

Eric v Giggsy
(starting from Eric's first full season)

Cantona 25, Giggs 17
Cantona 14, Giggs 4*
Cantona 19, Giggs 12**
Cantona 15, Giggs 5

* Eric missed Feb to May for being a bad lad
** Eric missed August to October for being a bad lad

please feel free to give me the assists, I can't be assed looking for them but somehow I doubt you've been telling the truth when I look at the above and when I remember back to how creative our King was.

Happy to be proven wrong though and feel free to minus off Eric's pens if it helps prove your "garbage".

 

[Member 55443]

I think that Nani is the better player overall, but I think Rooney is often played in a role where he is not comfortable, when relied upon to create chances and it makes people think he's in bad form.

A lot of people seem to expect Rooney to be able to do absolutely everything, because they think he can, well I don't think he can at all. Don't get me wrong, he is great at many things, such as his work-rate, his long range passing accuracy, his discipline (positional), fitness, heading and his goalscoring record is very good.

What I don't think he is 'great' at, is his touch, his short passing, his creativity and his dribbling. However some people seem to think that he has these things in abundance and throw their toys out their pram every time he has a bad touch thinking that this isn't normal for him. In similar fashion to Hernandez, I think he gets so much unfair criticism when he is being asked to perform a role in which he is lacking in certain elements needed in this role. A lot of the time, the team can attack in the wide area and Rooney can easily adhere to this, but in tougher situations where we're restricted in those areas, it's down to Rooney in the middle to create chances, which is in my opinion an absurd responsibility for Rooney to have for reasons I have stated above. It also creates an environment where people think Rooney is having a poor game and freely air their frustrations at him. If he were used more effectively I think what some perceive as peaks and troughs in form would certainly level out. On the flip side, in the role he plays he is suited to helping out defensively and getting the ball wide - but not fully qualified to play this role in the tougher games where wide play might not always be a viable option, in my opinion of course.

In games where he can be truly effective though, I think he can be more influential than Nani for sure, although it could be argued that the task Rooney does - influential it may be - is slightly easier than the job Nani does i.e. beating players and more critical decision making. I think Nani's strengths are his dribbling, skills, link-up play and shooting. To me Nani is clearly the type of player who can play in any league with these skills. I'm not at all confident that Rooney could cope in a more technical league such as the Spanish league. I think he would struggle big time. Of course that is pure speculation but based on the traits and weaknesses of him and the properties of that league I think it's a fair opinion.

To conclude, I think that Rooney plays a more influential role for us, but he's not as great in that particular role as we think or expect. I'd rather see him playing in a more advanced position, or maybe not even more advanced, just with less responsibility for creating chances in tough games. In that position I think there would be no problem with his 'form'. With Nani, I think he is much more talented technically and as a winger he does exceptionally well for us. His limits know no bounds as he is not limited by technical ability, and for that reason I voted that Nani will be better in two years time, as he has all the talent and all the potential to improve even more.

 

[I_live_cement]

I think that Nani is the better player overall, but I think Rooney is often played in a role where he is not comfortable, when relied upon to create chances and it makes people think he's in bad form.

A lot of people seem to expect Rooney to be able to do absolutely everything, because they think he can, well I don't think he can at all. Don't get me wrong, he is great at many things, such as his work-rate, his long range passing accuracy, his discipline (positional), fitness, heading and his goalscoring record is very good.

What I don't think he is 'great' at, is his touch, his short passing, his creativity and his dribbling. However some people seem to think that he has these things in abundance and throw their toys out their pram every time he has a bad touch thinking that this isn't normal for him. In similar fashion to Hernandez, I think he gets so much unfair criticism when he is being asked to perform a role in which he is lacking in certain elements needed in this role. A lot of the time, the team can attack in the wide area and Rooney can easily adhere to this, but in tougher situations where we're restricted in those areas, it's down to Rooney in the middle to create chances, which is in my opinion an absurd responsibility for Rooney to have for reasons I have stated above. It also creates an environment where people think Rooney is having a poor game and freely air their frustrations at him. If he were used more effectively I think what some perceive as peaks and troughs in form would certainly level out. On the flip side, in the role he plays he is suited to helping out defensively and getting the ball wide - but not fully qualified to play this role in the tougher games where wide play might not always be a viable option, in my opinion of course.

In games where he can be truly effective though, I think he can be more influential than Nani for sure, although it could be argued that the task Rooney does - influential it may be - is slightly easier than the job Nani does i.e. beating players and more critical decision making. I think Nani's strengths are his dribbling, skills, link-up play and shooting. To me Nani is clearly the type of player who can play in any league with these skills. I'm not at all confident that Rooney could cope in a more technical league such as the Spanish league. I think he would struggle big time. Of course that is pure speculation but based on the traits and weaknesses of him and the properties of that league I think it's a fair opinion.

To conclude, I think that Rooney plays a more influential role for us, but he's not as great in that particular role as we think or expect. I'd rather see him playing in a more advanced position, or maybe not even more advanced, just with less responsibility for creating chances in tough games. In that position I think there would be no problem with his 'form'. With Nani, I think he is much more talented technically and as a winger he does exceptionally well for us. His limits know no bounds as he is not limited by technical ability, and for that reason I voted that Nani will be better in two years time, as he has all the talent and all the potential to improve even more.

Nobody ever claims Rooney's great dribbler though, although his touch is much better than you give him credit for.

You're dead wrong about his passing though. His one touch passing in tight areas, and vision to see an open man and release the ball to him at the right time are both very good, whereas Nani is always very hesitant in those situations. He either doesn't see the pass, or prefers to just keep the ball as long as possible.

Personally, I wonder whether you've seen either player play if that's your assessment of them.

 

[AttackingFlair]

Think its unfair to say that wingers get a statistical advantage over in the hole players. Wingers have to do a lot of defensive work compared to the in the hole player who has time to find space and hurt the opposition. Pretty much why most of the best players play there to maximise their potential. Rooney's a good example himself, much better off in the hole rather than out wide even for a statistical point. Could argue someone like Nasri much prefers playing there than out wide as well, the argument he played better without Fabregas. There's no stat disadvantage for playing in the hole compared to a winger imo

 

[Laphroaig]

You're dead wrong about his passing though. His one touch passing in tight areas, and vision to see an open man and release the ball to him at the right time are both very good, whereas Nani is always very hesitant in those situations. He either doesn't see the pass, or prefers to just keep the ball as long as possible.

Discussing his specific strengths and weaknesses isn't all that informative, because Rooney poses a problem: How to evaluate potentiality and eventuality. There can't be any doubt about how great Rooney is when on form, and how absolutely amazing he's capable of being. But at the same time, there can not be any doubt that he's probably (no doubt that he is probably? no sense being made) the one world class player in the world who is too hideously inconsistent and shite to really be considered world class. And it's silly to deny that his all-too-common shit periods are related to his own mental weaknesses and unprofessionalism. (And for those who can't believe that some supporters might have slightly less patience for Rooney than others: These are the fecking reasons, you daft twats!)

So is Rooney as good as he can be (bloody marvellous) or as good as his average (very good)? Who cares!

Well, I voted Nani. Because I think Rooney is a cnut and has to start growing up to become the great player he can become, so hopefully I'm jinxing him not improving. Rooney's been stupidly inconsistent forever. If he doesn't stop doing that, I believe that Nani will become better. If he stops being an inconsistent cnut, I will be proven wrong and United win, so I win.

 

[Polaroid]

Voted for Nani, if he continues on his current trajectory of development and gains maturity in his decision-making, making him a more effective team member, he can be the better player in 2 years time.

 

[Treble]

tough call that, personally, I prefer Nani for he is tehcnically better than Rooney

in terms of close control and ability to keep the ball in tight spaces Rooney is worse than most of the great forwards in the world, he compensates with his versatility and work rate though

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Discussing his specific strengths and weaknesses isn't all that informative, because Rooney poses a problem: How to evaluate potentiality and eventuality. There can't be any doubt about how great Rooney is when on form, and how absolutely amazing he's capable of being. But at the same time, there can not be any doubt that he's probably (no doubt that he is probably? no sense being made) the one world class player in the world who is too hideously inconsistent and shite to really be considered world class. And it's silly to deny that his all-too-common shit periods are related to his own mental weaknesses and unprofessionalism. (And for those who can't believe that some supporters might have slightly less patience for Rooney than others: These are the fecking reasons, you daft twats!)

So is Rooney as good as he can be (bloody marvellous) or as good as his average (very good)? Who cares!

Well, I voted Nani. Because I think Rooney is a cnut and has to start growing up to become the great player he can become, so hopefully I'm jinxing him not improving. Rooney's been stupidly inconsistent forever. If he doesn't stop doing that, I believe that Nani will become better. If he stops being an inconsistent cnut, I will be proven wrong and United win, so I win.

Actually, I think he's probably the only world class player you watch every single game he plays. And the only world class player whose under-par performances cause you so much stress and anxiety they end up burned into your memory.

When, for example, Drogba goes through a dip in form you don't see every poor performance and you don't feel so frustrated watching them it colours your perception of his next decent (albeit not outstanding) display to an extent where you think he's been shit again. A good example being how many people decided Rooney was shite against Bolton because they were still pissed off about the Newcastle game. He actually played ok in that game. Any Chelsea fan watching that game would have thought Rooney was running the show for us, as he almost always does, week in, week out.

Another major cause of bias in people's judgement of Rooney is all the baggage from his contract negotiations from last year. It's why so many people in this thead are banging on about Rooney's long dips in form, whilst glossing over the fact that - in this current season - Nani's had the more prolonged slump out of the two of them.

 

[Art]

Actually, I think he's probably the only world class player you watch every single game he plays. And the only world class player whose under-par performances cause you so much stress and anxiety they end up burned into your memory.

When, for example, Drogba goes through a dip in form you don't see every poor performance and you don't feel so frustrated watching them it colours your perception of his next decent (albeit not outstanding) display to an extent where you think he's been shit again. A good example being how many people decided Rooney was shite against Bolton because they were still pissed off about the Newcastle game. He actually played ok in that game. Any Chelsea fan watching that game would have thought Rooney was running the show for us, as he almost always does, week in, week out.

Another major cause of bias in people's judgement of Rooney is all the baggage from his contract negotiations from last year. It's why so many people in this thead are banging on about Rooney's long dips in form, whilst glossing over the fact that - in this current season - Nani's had the more prolonged slump out of the two of them.

Class post.

 

[I'm always right]

Another major cause of bias in people's judgement of Rooney is all the baggage from his contract negotiations from last year. It's why so many people in this thead are banging on about Rooney's long dips in form, whilst glossing over the fact that - in this current season - Nani's had the more prolonged slump out of the two of them.

I seriously doubt that has affacted too many opinions, maybe some of course but a minority.

Disagree regarding this season, I'd say they've both produced very similar form, it's most certainly not clear-cut as you make out. Both have had some excellent games, both have had games where posters have been extremely harsh on them due to end product, not great, but certainly decent. Both have also had some quiet days.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I seriously doubt that has affacted too many opinions, maybe some of course but a minority.

Disagree regarding this season, I'd say they've both produced very similar form, it's most certainly not clear-cut as you make out. Both have had some excellent games, both have had games where posters have been extremely harsh on them due to end product, not great, but certainly decent. Both have also had some quiet days.

Ok, I'm not sure I agree but let's say we go with that bit in bold.

This thread - and others like it - is full of people talking about how woefully inconsistent Rooney is. With many of the same people saying it's a complete myth that Nani is an inconsistent player.

If their form has, in reality, been very similar doesn't that kind of prove my point?

 

[I'm always right]

Ok, I'm not sure I agree but let's say we go with that bit in bold.

This thread - and others like it - is full of people talking about how woefully inconsistent Rooney is. With many of the same people saying it's a complete myth that Nani is an inconsistent player.

If their form has, in reality, been very similar doesn't that kind of prove my point?

I certainly get your point and I admit that some of us go way over the top when we talk about Rooney's form when compared to Nani's, but this has more to do with the fact that Nani is often labelled inconsistent by certain posters whilst completely ignoring Rooney's inconsistency in the exact same post, for example:

Overall Vidic and Rooney would be the first two obvious ones. As for the third you could make an argument for Nani, Evra or Rio.

However, at the moment Vidic is injured, Nani is too inconsistent (and is a very frustrating player a lot of the time), so is Evra and Rio is always injured (and has been in dodgy form recently)

The forum is full of posts like the one above, posters claiming Nani to be inconsistent but ignoring the fact that Rooney and Nani are very similar in this regard. The "frustrating" part is annoying too, Rooney is equally "frustrating" for many.

I personally think Nani's levels of consistency since January 2010 have actually been better than Rooney's, but I'd agree there's not a lot in it, and this is where that dreaded "bottom level" starts being used.

 

[sajeev]

Nani for me is the better player on most days.

 

[Sunny Jim]

I've decided not to vote. I simply don't know and imo we are talking here about very fine margins.

 

[RyanGoggs]

Very close but I'd just go for Nani. Even on an off day he still scares the shit out of defenders and can really make something happen from nothing. In fact with a little more consistency I would not put him TOO FAR behind 06/07 Ronaldo in terms of overall performance. I don't even think Nani is that inconsistent.

Rooney is very good but as has been said, when he is bad he is very bad.

 

[Zen86]

What's with all the bitching about stats? We've all got a pair of eyes so fecking use 'em.

 

[adexkola]

I've decided not to vote. I simply don't know and imo we are talking here about very fine margins.

Same here.

 

[Ash_G]

I don't know the stats but I can guess by what Pogue's saying so far that Rooney's stats are better than Nani's or similar at least. Whilst that may be true I don't think it neccessarily tells the whole story. Certainly throughout the season I've been more frustrated with Rooney's ever changing form than Nani's. Even if stat wise he's been good which I'm sure he has it doesn't mean his performances have. And as others have stated when Rooney isn't on form or is having a bad game, his performance dips dramatically. On the other hand where as Nani may not have gotten as many assists or goals as he has in the past, his overally performances have been much better. Nani off form is still able to do all the things you would expect, just maybe without as much success. His interplay is still there and ability to beat a man etc. Rooney looses his touch, passing and shooting. Even his decisions aren't as good.

As I said I think Rooney at his best currently is better than Nani at his best but at the moment I think Nani's performances game in, game out are at a much more consistent level than Rooney's.

 

[Adebesi]

Compare them in the current season so far and I reckon Rooney would be even more comfortably ahead. A pattern that goes back all the way to Nani's first season with United. Strange that so many people think this pattern will be turned on it's head over the next two years. Don't see it myself.

I can definitely see this logic and would not be surprised if you were right in your prediction for two years. This goes back to that other post a couple of days ago, people were pointing out to me that my comparisons of Nani with people like Pires and Robben were unfair because Nani is young and wingers peak a little older than he is. That made me think, yes, he has improved in recent years and maybe that improvement will continue. It made me optimistic about him.

Rooney is Rooney, he is a class act who does have some difficult spells, but I dont see a huge upward trend in form for him season on season. His game has changed over the years and he has certainly matured some, but there is nothing to suggest he will be in a different league in two years time. As has been said, even when he had his 30+ goals season, it arguably came at the expense of build up play. Even though he is now the heartbeat of the team and tends to dictate out attacking play, this seems to have come at the expense of the explosive player we used to have who took people on. Remember his first season with us? It was hard to leave him out of the side, we looked bereft without him. So yes, he might have improved, but not so dramatically.

It will be very interesting to see where these two players are in two seasons. Someone will have to remember to bump this thread.

 

[RK]

To me, Rooney is obviously the better player.

 

[Adebesi]

If they were kids in the playground, I reckon Rooney would get picked first.

But thats only because if he didnt get picked first he would probably beat up the team captains.

 

[Member 55443]

Nobody ever claims Rooney's great dribbler though, although his touch is much better than you give him credit for.

You're dead wrong about his passing though. His one touch passing in tight areas, and vision to see an open man and release the ball to him at the right time are both very good, whereas Nani is always very hesitant in those situations. He either doesn't see the pass, or prefers to just keep the ball as long as possible.

Personally, I wonder whether you've seen either player play if that's your assessment of them.

People always go mad about his bad touch and start to make excuses like he's just a confidence player or it's clearly his 'bottom level'. I'm not denying he's a very good player but in some peoples minds they think he is the master of everything. He loses the ball due to a poor touch more than most in his position. His short passing isn't great but it isn't poor either. We can agree to disagree that his one touch passing in tight areas is very good, because I don't think so.

It's also debatable how much vision is really needed to make those cross field balls that Rooney does. Personally I credit that to great range passing accuracy and not vision. I define vision as making passes that nobody else even sees are available. I'm not denying it takes talent to make those passes, I just wouldn't say they take a great amount of vision.

In your comparison with Nani you're only really comparing one attribute there which is pretty unfair and selective.

 

[I'm always right]

You're dead wrong about his passing though. His one touch passing in tight areas, and vision to see an open man and release the ball to him at the right time are both very good, whereas Nani is always very hesitant in those situations. He either doesn't see the pass, or prefers to just keep the ball as long as possible.

Nani's one of the best one touch passers in the team, for example, his one touch interplay with Evra at the weekend was a highlight of the game for me.

He does lots of this, although admittedly is doesn't always end up so beautiful as on this occassion, but that goes for all players.



Personally, I wonder whether you've seen either player play if that's your assessment of them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I can definitely see this logic and would not be surprised if you were right in your prediction for two years. This goes back to that other post a couple of days ago, people were pointing out to me that my comparisons of Nani with people like Pires and Robben were unfair because Nani is young and wingers peak a little older than he is. That made me think, yes, he has improved in recent years and maybe that improvement will continue. It made me optimistic about him.

Rooney is Rooney, he is a class act who does have some difficult spells, but I dont see a huge upward trend in form for him season on season. His game has changed over the years and he has certainly matured some, but there is nothing to suggest he will be in a different league in two years time. As has been said, even when he had his 30+ goals season, it arguably came at the expense of build up play. Even though he is now the heartbeat of the team and tends to dictate out attacking play, this seems to have come at the expense of the explosive player we used to have who took people on. Remember his first season with us? It was hard to leave him out of the side, we looked bereft without him. So yes, he might have improved, but not so dramatically.

It will be very interesting to see where these two players are in two seasons. Someone will have to remember to bump this thread.

I hear this a lot and I'm not sure I agree.

In fact, I'm convinced the memories people have of Rooney in his early United career as an all-consuming, explosive force of nature are massively biased by the excitement and hype around him at the time, as well as the way we always remember the good/exciting - and filter out the bad/boring - over time.

I mean, look at his first season at United. Everyone remembers the goals on his debut and fondly reminisce about how he used to run past players for fun, peppering the goal with 30 yard screamers. The reality is a little different. After the hat-trick against Fenerbahce he only got on the scoresheet in 3 of our next 24 fixtures. He did improve as the season went on but finished with 17 goals in 37 starts. Which is good but nowhere near as good as he's been in recent seasons.

Looking at it season, by season, in his first three seasons he averaged between 0.43 and 0.46 goals/start. In the most recent three seasons his worst goals tally was in 2010/11 when he only scored 0.44 goals/start. I would argue that half that season was a write off, for reasons that have nothing to do with football. In 09/10 he averaged 0.8 goals per start, playing as a lead the line striker. So far this season, having dropped deep into the same position he played in his first few seasons he's averaged 0.71 goals/start.

All the above speaks to me of a player who is far superior to the young lad we all got giddy about when he put three past Fenerbahce.

 

[Adebesi]

I hear this a lot and I'm not sure I agree.

In fact, I'm convinced the memories people have of Rooney in his early United career as an all-consuming, explosive force of nature are massively biased by the excitement and hype around him at the time, as well as the way we always remember the good/exciting - and filter out the bad/boring - over time.

I mean, look at his first season at United. Everyone remembers the goals on his debut and fondly reminisce about how he used to run past players for fun, peppering the goal with 30 yard screamers. The reality is a little different. After the hat-trick against Fenerbahce he only got on the scoresheet in 3 of our next 24 fixtures. He did improve as the season went on but finished with 17 goals in 37 starts. Which is good but nowhere near as good as he's been in recent seasons.

Looking at it season, by season, in his first three seasons he averaged between 0.43 and 0.46 goals/start. In the most recent three seasons his worst goals tally was in 2010/11 when he only scored 0.44 goals/start. I would argue that half that season was a write off, for reasons that have nothing to do with football. In 09/10 he averaged 0.8 goals per start, playing as a lead the line striker. So far this season, having dropped deep into the same position he played in his first few seasons he's averaged 0.71 goals/start.

All the above speaks to me of a player who is far superior to the young lad we all got giddy about when he put three past Fenerbahce.

Lies, damn lies and statistics!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I prefer the one about bikinis.

 

[AttackingFlair]

People knew he would improve in 7 years time but they thought he would keep his best attributes from his teenage years and expand on that. Instead he's become a great playmaker and goal scorer which makes him one of the best players in the world, but it's fair to say he has the talent go further in the game, could be up there with Ronaldo, that's how talented he is.

Strangely enough, I don't think anyone expected Ronaldo's dribbling to regress and become the machine-like goal scorer that he is now. If he constantly beat players and had a similar goal scoring rate, the comparisons to Messi would be more valid. This is why Messi is streets ahead of everyone at the moment, because he has everything.

Edit: Apologise to bring up 'that' debate, it wasn't my intention.

 

[Adebesi]

I prefer the one about bikinis.

For some reason that made me think of the Windowlicker record cover, but with Wayne's face instead of Richard's.

Shudder.

 

[Massive Spanner]

People knew he would improve in 7 years time but they thought he would keep his best attributes from his teenage years and expand on that. Instead he's become a great playmaker and goal scorer which makes him one of the best players in the world, but it's fair to say he has the talent go further in the game, could be up there with Ronaldo, that's how talented he is.

Strangely enough, I don't think anyone expected Ronaldo's dribbling to regress and become the machine-like goal scorer that he is now. If he constantly beat players and had a similar goal scoring rate, the comparisons to Messi would be more valid. This is why Messi is streets ahead of everyone at the moment, because he has everything.

Edit: Apologise to bring up 'that' debate, it wasn't my intention.

He really couldn't. Can't understand how people can continue to make that assessment.

 

[AttackingFlair]

Maybe because the current Ronaldo isn't much more than a goal scoring machine. Not saying that it isn't important, it clearly is.. but there's more to being a top footballer than just scoring goals. Rooney's consistency is what holds him back rather than lack of ability.

Lets take Rooney's most consistent season (at least for goal scoring) 09/10, wouldn't say he was inferior to Ronaldo that season.

 

[Member 55443]

Lets take Rooney's most consistent season (at least for goal scoring) 09/10, wouldn't say he was inferior to Ronaldo that season.

Who was competing in that team with Rooney though? 2nd top scorer that seasn: Own goals. The team was set up for every mid-fwd player to feed Rooney.

Rooney got what 34 goals? More or less in a team where he was the sole scorer. Ronaldo could easily score that number of goals even with Tevez & Rooney competing in the same team for goals. It could be argued that if Ronaldo was in Rooney's position in that season he could have scored a record number of goals for us.

 

[Brwned]

I hear this a lot and I'm not sure I agree.

In fact, I'm convinced the memories people have of Rooney in his early United career as an all-consuming, explosive force of nature are massively biased by the excitement and hype around him at the time, as well as the way we always remember the good/exciting - and filter out the bad/boring - over time.

I agree, and further than that I think a lot of the aspects of his game as a young player were/are very overstated by many (myself included). I decided to watch a couple of Euro 2004 games recently just to see if my mind was playing tricks on me and I think it was. Everyone talks about the dribbling side of his game disappearing, how we miss the old Rooney just blowing through defences...but I don't think it happened that often. We remember things like the run v Charlton because it was so memorable and because we've seen it over and over again since so we end up convincing ourselves that was something he done regularly. I think the same is true of his long range shooting. He didn't look a very good dribbler in 2004 he was just more willing to run at people, but he lost the ball a lot. Now he's just smarter in his use of the ball, less wasteful and yet no less creative.

The main things that stood out with him then are the things that stand out now; his ability to find space, his incisive passing and his physical style of play. His long range goals and impressive dribbles still happen a few times every season and that's probably the case when he was first here too, it was only a few times a season, but back then it was him showing the potential for that side of his game and was looked in a more favourable light, but because he didn't start to score more and more spectacular goals and show more and more of his dribbling skills people are disappointed. When people talk about that side of his game disappearing or regressing I think it's rather he just didn't improve it as much as people expected.

People probably do the same about Ronaldo's dribbling, reminiscing about how it was back in 2006 compared to now.

As for people glossing over the less impressive runs of form for Rooney when he was younger, that'll happen with this season too in a few years and people will look back at the fact he scored in big games consistently and had probably his most productive season in his career. People are already doing that about Rooney in 09/10 never mind back when he started, people see Rooney scoring 34 goals and remember him having a consistent season but forget the fact he had a run where he scored just one goal in 10 games.

 

[I'm always right]

Everyone talks about the dribbling side of his game disappearing, how we miss the old Rooney just blowing through defences...but I don't think it happened that often. We remember the run v Charlton because it was so memorable and because we've seen it over and over again so we end up convincing ourselves that was something he done regularly. I think the same is true of his long range shooting. He didn't look a very good dribbler in 2004 he was just more willing to run at people, but he lost the ball a lot. Now he's just smarter in his use of the ball, less wasteful and yet no less creative.

It's not just Charlton for me, just a few that spring to mind were the run at Old Trafford for Everton, the run against France that won the penalty, the Charlton run, the Everton goal at Highbury, the England debut v Turkey. Rooney played "without fear" back then and would regularly run at defences.

You might be right in that he wasn't "better" at it, just more willing.

People probably do the same about Ronaldo's dribbling, reminiscing about how it was back in 2006 compared to now.

Ronaldo's was definitely better back in 06, mainly due to him playing a different position and getting more chances to do so.

 

[Bilbo]

I'm a huge Rooney fan so I'm biased here, but I still find Nani to be somewhat frustrating as a player. A closer vote for me would have been Nani vs Valencia.

It depends what you look for in a player, and what you consider to be the key element in what constitutes a better player. In Rooney, we have a player now that will pretty much guarantee 25-30 goals a season, has arguably sacrificed himself for this team more than any other player in a generation (though thats another argument), and - most crucially for me - almost always finds, or attempts to find, the right pass, the right option for the team, often to the detriment of his own goals-for records.

Nani has become a marvellous, dangerous player for us. He provides match-winning moments on occasion. More than he used to, but IMO not as often as he should. His decision making in the final third is probably the only thing that is stopping him from becoming a truly world-class player.

Its why I said above that Nani vs Valencia would be a better poll, or even Nani vs Beckham in his prime. Both of those players make better decisions on the pitch, whereas Nani is clearly a more naturally talented player with the ball at his feet.

I guess it comes down to (a) what type of player you prefer to watch, or alternatively for people who play a lot of football, (b) what type of player you would prefer to play alongside. For me, (a) would be about even, but Rooney wins (b) by a country mile.

I could have just said 'Rooney's a more complete player' but felt the need to justify it with a wall of text.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Who was competing in that team with Rooney though? 2nd top scorer that seasn: Own goals. The team was set up for every mid-fwd player to feed Rooney.

Rooney got what 34 goals? More or less in a team where he was the sole scorer. Ronaldo could easily score that number of goals even with Tevez & Rooney competing in the same team for goals. It could be argued that if Ronaldo was in Rooney's position in that season he could have scored a record number of goals for us.

A football team set up to provide their striker with goals?

What madness is this?

 

[AttackingFlair]

Re: Bilbo, Ancelotti agrees with you

"Rooney, however, is closer to the reality of football. He puts his talent out to the rest of the team and this explains the difference between players and outstanding players." - Ancelotti

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I think rooney is a great player and NANI has definitely shown the same over his time at united...the problem is they are doing completely different jobs and it is hard to compare...they are both needed, can agree on that...in regards to development I would say NANI as I find that rooney tends to allow personal issues in his life to affect his performance on the pitch...this can only hinder him

 

[I'm always right]

It depends what you look for in a player, and what you consider to be the key element in what constitutes a better player. In Rooney, we have a player now that will pretty much guarantee 25-30 goals a season, has arguably sacrificed himself for this team more than any other player in a generation (though thats another argument), and - most crucially for me - almost always finds, or attempts to find, the right pass, the right option for the team, often to the detriment of his own goals-for records.

I found this to be a very bizarre paragraph to say the least.

"sacrificed himself for this team more than any other player in a generation", what on Earth are you on about.

And what does this mean "almost always finds, or attempts to find, the right pass, the right option for the team"?

What about when he tries those ridiculous chips is he doing this then?

Rooney like everyone else tries wrong options on plenty of occasions, if he didn't I doubt we'd be having this debate. A prime example would be the counter attack at the weekend, 4 on 3 and instead of slipping in Nani or Valencia he tried the "clever" ball to Welbeck and gave the ball straight back to Arsenal, a poor option, he does that as much as anyone.