Look at last season. Valencia was the first choice winger almost all season, Nani had loads of injuries and hardly got any games. When the game against Madrid comes though, our biggest game of the season, who does Sir Alex go for? The better, more talented winger of course (Nani, if you aren't sure). He's quite clearly a lot better then Valencia and provides a lot more going forward. Valencia just doesn't get injured ever though. Just thinking about Moyes but he made many questionable selections in his first few months, going for the defensive selections of Valencia and Young on the wings instead of Nani in the first few games. Nani has been injured for the last month or something now so it remains to be seen how Moyes will use him, but IMO its not even close between Nani and Valencia. It was in 2011 when Valencia was at his very best, and Nani was class as well, but even then the general consensus was Nani was better. Now that Valencia has been pure shite since then? It's genuinely confusing why he keeps getting picked, and there's no explanation for it, because its not like he's been that great defensively either.
Look at last season. Valencia was the first choice winger almost all season, Nani had loads of injuries and hardly got any games. When the game against Madrid comes though, our biggest game of the season, who does Sir Alex go for? The better, more talented winger of course (Nani, if you aren't sure). He's quite clearly a lot better then Valencia and provides a lot more going forward. Valencia just doesn't get injured ever though. Just thinking about Moyes but he made many questionable selections in his first few months, going for the defensive selections of Valencia and Young on the wings instead of Nani in the first few games. Nani has been injured for the last month or something now so it remains to be seen how Moyes will use him, but IMO its not even close between Nani and Valencia. It was in 2011 when Valencia was at his very best, and Nani was class as well, but even then the general consensus was Nani was better. Now that Valencia has been pure shite since then? It's genuinely confusing why he keeps getting picked, and there's no explanation for it, because its not like he's been that great defensively either.
You missed the most obvious one - What if he's not as good as Bosnian_red thinks he is.
Well that's simply not true.
How can I possible know what? That Valencia's first choice? Look at the amount of appearances made. In all comps, he's had 22 starts and 6 sub appearances, that's as many starts as Rooney and only Evra has had more with 28 starts, but Valencia has joint most with Evra when you add in the sub appearances.
You're right, we don't see them in training. I see them on the pitch and form my opinions like that, when it actually matters, and Valencia has done next to feck all for 2 years despite starting week in, week out.
If Valencia was so much better then Nani, why did Sir Alex pick Nani in the game against Madrid despite Nani hardly playing that season and Valencia playing all year pretty much? It just shows that Sir Alex clearly thought highly of him.
Anyways, you can say Nani doesn't suit Moyes' system, sure. Whats making him pick Valencia so much though? That's what I'm getting at. Yes Nani's been injured lately but even earlier in the season when he was fit he was on the bench most of the time.
The knives come out whenever Nani is discussed, it seems. I think this is because he is to such an extent a "could've been" player. If you take Nani's best performances for United (and Portugal) you're looking at a player who has much more to offer than Valencia (his main rival on the Caf). There's no contest, in fact. Valencia at his best was a locomotive, bombing down the tracks, causing all manner of trouble for his fullback because of his speed and physicality, more than anything. At the very highest level (which we surely aspire to be at), he was a one-trick pony. Nani at his best is a player in a different category. He is much more versatile, far less predictable, with skills and trickery on a different level. Nani on song is exactly the player we've missed on a number of occasions over the past few seasons. Hence the fierce support. And hence - also - the disappointment. Because he simply hasn't come out in full bloom for us - if he had, people wouldn't be having this kind of discussion. Nani wasn't a world beater for us over the course of 18 months - he has never reached that level. And that is the problem.
No you're completely right, Valencia is so much better then him, can't wait to see him wreck the fullback he's up against every week with his one trick of pushing the ball out then hitting it in the box as hard as he can
He's a proper United winger who requested to not have the number 7 because it put to much pressure on him, and he is too afraid of ever using the ball with his left foot.You have just said yourself that Valencia was first choice under Ferguson,
Yet now you are trying to convince yourself that because Nani was preferred to Valencia in one match against Real Madrid that Ferguson thought very highly of him. You're genuinely quite irrational about this.
Agreed, apart from the 18 months thing because he was genuinely class and consistent between the start of 2010 and 2012. But since then he's always had too many injuries which is why we're at where we are now in my opinion. He never really seemed like an injury prone player and I think he's just had awful luck with them, and I have faith in him that he can rediscover his old form if he does get chances and a run of games. He shows glimpses of it now and then but he won't ever get back to that level by being a squad player and used once then benched for the next few games.
No you're completely right, Valencia is so much better then him, can't wait to see him wreck the fullback he's up against every week with his one trick of pushing the ball out then hitting it in the box as hard as he can
Stop having a meltdown.
I don't dislike Nani at all and don't think he's a worse player than Valencia - its pretty even for me and I would play whichever one is in form. I just find the opinions by a few in here incredibly strange, no big deal. It's probably how you see MadWinger when he talks about Kagawa - to a lesser extent of course.
Excellent comparison with MW and Kagawa.
He was first choice over the course of the season but Sir Alex thought Nani was more talented and better going forward, more likely to get a goal or make a goal (which he did) so he picked him in the biggest match of the season. Anyways, I already said before that Nani had loads of injuries these last 2 years which led to him not being first choice under Sir Alex. You still didn't explain why Nani was picked against Madrid though? Surely if Valencia was better he would have been picked in the biggest game of the season, not Nani?
By the same logic Rooney isn't worth a place in our first choice XI either.
When in fact we all know he's one of our best players.
When in fact we all know he's one of our best players.
Maybe I do overrate him, I probably do a bit. I just find it really strange that he's always left out for Valencia and Valencia gets a free pass to the starting line up whereas Nani has to produce an amazing performance to keep his spot, and even then he won't always keep his spot. I don't think he's a world class player or anything, all I'm saying is that he's our most talented winger (comparing between Nani, Young, Valencia) and basing it on what he's shown before, he's the best one. Basically the best of a bad bunch, but potentially can be very good. I think we need another winger anyways, as I don't think Nani will get back to his best ever, but that's more due to me doubting he'll get a run of games to get there like Valencia has. The other 2 just are nowhere near good enough.
Sorry, what?
So Valencia was first choice, but Sir Alex really thought that Nani was actually the better player so played him in the biggest game of the season. But not the others. He must have been saving him for the big games.
No, I'm asking how can you know that Nani's a better player. Let me ask you a question here, and I'd appreciate it if you answered it directly. How can you think you know the ability of two players better than our current and previous manager?
I understand you form your opinions on what you see on the pitch, but I can 100% guarantee you that managers judge it on more than that. Like it or not, they're better informed than you or I.
We can't seriously be questioning BR's assessment of a player no can we?
He was injured for most of the season which made Valencia first choice? Forgot to put that.
I like all other fans base our opinions on what they show on a pitch. Of course I don't think I know their abilities better then the current of previous manager, but why was Valencia dropped and Nani picked in our biggest game of the season last year when they were both off form (Nani having loads of injuries as well) if he isn't a better player? Valencia, at his best was still a one trick pony. Nani has always had more natural talent, that much isn't debatable, correct? I think he's better because of what he showed between 2010 and 2012. He carried us at times and throughout that 2 year period, he was our best player. He was scoring and assisting consistently, and winning us games. Valencia never showed that type of form. Since then, I don't think Nani declined a significant amount or anything, he's just had a lot of injuries and never had a proper chance to get a run of games. I remember Fergie saying before the Madrid game how much talent he has and how good he can potentially be, and he started that game and then the next game against Chelsea, only to get injured and subbed off early.
Obviously the managers judge it on more then that, but what use is it having a player who is amazing in training if he plays like shit on the pitch? Was it Rio that said for Tevez that he was quite lazy on training, but he was saving it all for when he was on the pitch? It might not have been exactly that but the point is, that how players perform in training and how they play on the pitch is completely different. Some struggle under the pressure and expectation, while others revel in it.
You're really stretching here, this is a terrible basis for an argument.
As was already asked by Adebesi, what does that mean about Rooney?
You don't think he was good in those two and a half years, but you have zero arguments to prove that, it's just your opinion over my stats, over players who voted him as our player of the season, and Fergie who kept using him in the big games over Valencia(even in Valencia's best season), and Moyes who gave him another five year contract? Seems fair to me.
He hasn't been good since, but he hasn't been poor either, it's just that he barely played in Fergie's last season because of his injury/contract problems, and this year is all about injuries again.
At least I am defending clearly better player, you were always defensive over player who is rubish for second season in a row, even though he was given more chances than any other player in our squad I can think of, and yet he kept on being awfull, it's pretty strange and it's not happening very often.
You must be spending time with minority then, because lot of people here actually predicted him to end up as better player than Rooney.
And you're saying that I am defensive over Nani, even though you're the one who clearly doesn't like the lad.
Just because he had contract issues in last season and wasn't first choice because of that, doesn't mean he was never first choice for Fergie. If anything, Fergie always trusted Nani in big games and started him regulary, more often than Valencia, even during Valencia's best season he he favoured Nani over him in games against City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham. Even in last season when Nani was almost completely frozen he started both games against Real Madrid, where Valencia didn't get single minute on the pitch. And why do you think Moyes Moyes gave him five year contract in first place if he didn't rate him?
I'll agree Nani had/has more natural talent, definitely. Without his strength and work rate Valencia would be massively struggling to be at United let alone play.
You're going back a few years though to when you think Nani was better than Valencia. I'll point out that Valencia was our best player in 2011/12 (and that's not just my opinion, he got our POTY), so he certainly showed the form you're mentioning of Nani, he just struggled to add the goals.
It's worth mentioning too that Welbeck started that game over Rooney. Welbeck's a hard worker, but so is Rooney. We had a tough game against Chelsea in the Cup not long after, perhaps it was as simple as squad management.
You can't judge things like this on off games unless it happens regularly. Other big games include City away and Liverpool away, both of which we won. Nani started the Liverpool game and was taken off at half time having been absolutely terrible (in fairness most of the team's performance was woeful, but he was sacrificed for Scholes to get some order into the game). Valencia made 'that' chase for the ball which managed to injure a Liverpool player and resulted in our winning penalty. Nani didn't start in the City game (injured?) whereas Valencia again, did.
Well the Chelsea game after that Nani again started and Valencia was on the bench, again. He got injured at the end of the half according to the match report and Valencia came on for him. Also, yeah Valencia was brilliant that season, fully deserved POTY, but Nani was excellent in the first half of the season as well. On the Welbeck over Rooney, I think Fergie was already a bit annoyed of Rooney then, and there was already a bit of a fall out and it just got worse. He wanted to spring a tactical surprise with that switch, whereas Valencia was just dropped based on form.
Fergie also said this about Nani at the end of last season:
"He is one of our squad players. When he is in form there are very few better than him."
It shows he did rate him highly, but for one reason or another (I think injuries mainly), he didn't get the chances to get back to his top level.
I don't dislike Nani at all - not sure where you've pulled that from. Look a few posts up on this page.
I just think you're opinions on him are pretty strange (and I dislike the vitriol towards Valencia) - like I said above, it is a similar bias to the one posters accuse MadWinger of having for Kagawa. I mean, read your posts. It's like your trying to convince yourself that Ferguson really did think Nani was much better than Valencia when its quite clear that he didn't. Delusion. Things like citing Nani's Player of the Year as a justification for him being better than Valencia, whilst ignoring Valencia's Player of the Season and Fan's Player of the Season. You just seem to look for anything you can find to convince yourself that everyone else views Nani the way that you do.
Personally I would say it's because when he does play he's rarely on form. FWIW I'd agree that when he is there are few in the world better than him, but how often do you find yourself saying that he was playing at the level of 'one of the best in the world today'? I'll be honest, I didn't see anything he couldn't do at the start of the 2010 season. I didn't think he'd quite reach Ronaldo's level but I certainly saw scope for him to fill that void. If he could've worked on his shooting and bulked up much like Ronaldo there wouldn't have been a whole lot between them, but he remained quite slight (in part I imagine due to him just not having the frame) and his shooting was as wayward as ever and he never added the consistency that Ronaldo did. He'll always be a 'what could've been' player, that's a fact. He's simply not lived up to his potential and you can blame that on whatever factor you want, but he hasn't.
You are really ridiculous on this topic, this isn't the first time you are completely ignoring my every argument on this(and not just mine, you did it with few other posters in the Nani thread too), and you just decide to to accuse people of being biased towards Nani instead, while your only argument is that he wasn't first choice for Fergie and Moyes(which is far from truth btw).
I don't want to convince anyone that Fergie thought Nani was much better than Valencia, it's just you who want to convince people otherwise, and I found that ridiculous, so I said why I think Fergie rated Nani higher than Valencia, which you ignored of course.
If player in Valencia's form over last 18 months is enough to keep 100% fit Nani out of team, I will happilly admit that Nani is the most overrated player in the world.
I agree with you, I remember before this Chelsea game at the start of 11/12 they put a comparison of Ronaldo and Nani on the screen, and they had almost identical stats, and it was like how does he push on from here. I don't think lack of muscle has anything to do with it, Nani was a bit of a tank back then, I remember there was that one bit where Ivanovic tried to knock him off the ball once with a shoulder barge but instead went flying. I don't think he ever had it in him to be a Ronaldo type player, with such crazy efficiency, I think he lacks too much mentally for that. He was always a confidence player and that always held him back from becoming truly world class IMO.
His shooting is weird. Occasionally he has a brilliant shot on him but then so often you see him just hit it far over the target. He seems to rush his shots instead of focusing more while shooting, because he does have a good, powerful shot on him and is capable of getting it away quickly sort of like Sturridge does.
Yep. It's hilarious watching being try and twist reality to fit in with the opinion they've convinced themselves of. It's almost cultish. As if people are either unintentionally blind to his career or deliberately so. In some people's minds he's a vital clog in the machine and one of the most highly rated players in the world, I'm sure. The fact that he isn't won't matter because logic just gets thrown out of the window.
What are you talking about?
You really are deluded, the complete opposite is what happens - someone makes a criticism of Nani - so in this Liam I think it was - and then they get their head bitten off by posters such as yourself who can't seem to understand that not everyone rates Nani as highly as you do. You're extremely militant about him, its bizzare. I remember you doing it before which is why I told Liam not to bother.
Also you rarely present any arguments, just your deluded opinions.
Bang on. With every Nani thread/discussion the minders wade in. It's as if they're paid. It's also funny how you rarely ever see a post in defence of Nani that within the first two sentences doesn't include the phrase "Young/Valencia's shit"
I don't care how people rate Nani, he don't have to rate him at all, he may find him as our worst player I wouldn't care, I just hate when people start talking shit and imagining things, and that's what happens a lot when people are discussing about Nani.
One who lies gets his head bitten, and it certainly wasn't me who was lying. Liam started it all by saying that Nani was good for around five months, and the other poster said he had one good season in eight for us(he lied about number of good good seasons, and lied about number of years he is here), but yet, we who disagree with that are bunch of deluded fanboys.
Heaven forbid people actually recall the opinions they had of Nani at the time watching him. The correct thing to do is to get a print out of the stats of that season and declare "he played great that season!" I don't even why people bother watching games as just skimming through the Opta figures once every fortnight should give them a pretty good handle on who's doing well and who isn't.
Someone gave an opinion on how well they think Nani had played and it's dismissed as 'lies'. Great stuff.
Someone gave an opinion on how well they think Nani had played and it's dismissed as 'lies'. Great stuff.
When you say that Nani had 5 good months at United, or that he had one good season in eight, those are clearly lies. First because he clearly had more than five good months, and second is a lie because he is his seventh year, and not in his ninth(ninth, because that poster said he is here for 8 seasons).
You keep saying this over and over yet every time I bring you up on it you run away like a little bitch instead of trying to find any sort of proof that this is the case. Absolutely nobody on here says that anymore, nobody, actually nobody has ever said he's one of the highest rated in the world, go on, find somebody saying that. The best you'll probably get is back in 2011 when people rightly said he was the best winger in the league, which he was at the time.
You're genuinely the most idiotic poster I've seen promoted in this forum in a long time, everything you say is senseless drivel and awful analogies that make no sense. It's like you try to be witty and look intelligent but instead come across as a hysterical, condescending fecknut with no absolutely no clue. This isn't just because of what you say about Nani, by the way, it's everything, everything I've seen in every forum, the transfer forum, the general. I'm looking forward to the day when you finally say something so obscenely retarded that the mods see fit to perm ban you instead of just giving you temps.
There's an awful shock, someone criticise Nani and there you are. If people don't believe Nani is one of the best players around it's quite funny how you and others almost never let an even slightly criticial comment pass without doing your usual routine.
I don't give much of a feck about what kind of poster you think I am. To be honest if you took away 'smart ass criticisms of other people's opinions' away from your posting attributes you wouldn't have much left yourself. Frankly I see you offering little else in any Nani thread other than often being the first to jump on and insult anyone with a different opinion. Others have pointed out what it's like when Nani is debated here. You say something and the usual 4-5 jump on with you being, usually, one of the first.
It isn't just me, it's happened on this thread on earlier pages and it's only been bumped for two and a half pages. Someone criticises Nani, the usual crowd pounce on top him and soon, the usual suspects again, are dishing out insults to someone else about being 'the worst poster' or somesuch. Always the same, people cannot cope with the fact other people have opinions and much less like this being pointed out to them.
It happens EVERY time a critical comment is made about Nani. At first I thought it was just me who gets this treatment. It's why I stay clear of the Nani thread now. But no, it's everyone. Someone offers a differing opinion about Nani and there they are, with you usually being first or second in the queue. Only on the last page someone gave an opinion on Nani's performances and were immediately branded a "liar".
There is a HUGE problem with people wanting to restrict any discussion that doesn't conform to their opinion on Nani. It's been pointed out by another posted on this same page (or the last one, I can't scroll up I'm editing this). So the idea it's 'just me' is wrong. Had many posters not completely given up on all Nani threads because of this, a few more may be here to tell you.
@Plugsy Know when you look crazy my friend...
No that's fine, I'm just pissed off with how EVERY Nani thread goes when someone makes a criticism of him. Liam being called a "liar" just because voiced an opinion is only the most recent example and, for the benefit of my point, thankfully happened as recently as the previous page. Whenever this is pointed out there's someone, like Cina this time, to play that usual game.
I don't care how mental I look, but it can't be denied there is a very big problem that some people have here whenever any differing opinion on Nani is offered.
You do need to leanr the difference between people arguning back against you (maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, maybe with clear structured arguments, maybe with insane wittering, maybe politely, maybe with un-called-for abuse) and people "restricting discussion".
This happens all too often on the caf...
Poster 1: "I think player X is shit"
Poster 2: "Bollocks he's a fecking great player"
Poster 1: "Oh, I'm not alloweds to have an opinion now? I thought we were here to debate, but I'm not allowed to say what I want because of you nazis."
Poster 2: "Er..."
The big problem being that... they disagree and tell you you're wrong?
Can you see the hypocrisy in all this yet?