RedCafe's Top 20 (30) by Position | Please check out the last threadmark

[Theon]

Winger - Someone who plays predominately from the wing in terms of starting position.
Foward - Second striker or #9.5 who plays in a central attacking role, but is distinct from a proper striker / #9 or an attacking midfielder / #10.

Cristiano Ronaldo - Left winger
Ronaldinho - Left winger
Messi - Forward
Stoichkov - Forward
Blokhin - Forward / Left winger (unsure on this one)
Czibor - Left winger
Robben - Right winger
Kubala - Forward
Neymar - Left winger
Hamrin - Right winger
Jairzinho - Right winger
Bale - Left winger

 

[Physiocrat]

Winger - Someone who plays predominately from the wing in terms of starting position.

That's a perfectly reasonable definition but surely what the player does when they receive the ball or the team is in possession is also important? The way I like to think about it is what role are they playing for the team rather than just their starting position. This is why I thought distinguishing full-backs from attacking-full backs made sense. The former supply supplementary width whereas the latter provides primary width

 

[Enigma_87]

Yeah it’s interesting - not sure there’s a perfect way.

For me Cristiano should be in the winger catageory but I don’t think Rummenigge or Messi should - both were central players as well as ‘wide forwards’ and should be in the #9.5 / second striker category (or whatever name is given to it).

If a wing forward is someone who drifts wide then you’ve got the likes of Baggio or Del Piero who did that.

If you look at someone like Ronaldinho as an example, he should be in the left wing positional category as that’s the position he took up on the field at his peak, but he was still scoring at a better than 1 in 2 strike rate - so I think you can have left or right wingers who still score high numbers (Robben another recent example).

I don’t think there’s any problem comparing Ronaldinho / Cristiano to Best / Garrincha. Agree it gets muddled if you add strikers who play wide like Rumminegge, but they shouldn’t be there imo.

Yeah, the reason why I proposed it is that we have a less disagreements when classifying players. For example to me wing forward and winger perform two different functions - one is more of a goalscorer and direct threat to the goal, whilst the other is more of a team player, creative, pulling defenders wide and create gaps.


Obviously there are a lot of similarities, but we usually define a formation first(in drafts) and deciding on whether we go with classic wingers or wing forwards usually determines the whole approach and tactical identity, more so than for example wing back and full back.

There are also exceptions like Ronaldinho, Messi, Kalle, etc that we can classify in multiple categories, but IMO wing forward defines Messi more than a winger or a SS, #10 or the like.

 

[Synco]

Made an overhaul for the voting, partly based on ideas from other posters. Tried to condense without shoehorning too much.


Goalkeepers

Sweepers & CB Playmakers

Center Backs / Stoppers

Full Backs

Defensive Midfielders

DLPs & Playmaking CMs

Box-to-box Midfielders

Attacking Midfielders & Classic #10s

Traditional Wingers

Wide Forwards & Secondary/Roaming Strikers

Playmaking Forwards

Strikers


-----
Comments:

Spoiler

• I've increasingly warmed up to putting wide forwards and secondary strikers into one category: so all of Eusebio, C. Ronaldo, Robben, Bale, Blokhin, T. Müller, etc. I think their basic function is similar, no matter if they primarily attack from the flanks or central areas. No coincidence that many players of that kind (and most if not all mentioned above) could fill out both roles on elite level.

• Offensive playmakers are neatly seperated into midfielders and forwards. Should help with the grey areas. Playmaking forwards are both wide & central players.

• I actually prefer keeping sweepers seperate from all other CBs, as their role was so unique. But since that category would probably be too small, I've included (modern) playmaking center backs. Problem will be where to draw the line to regular CBs.

• Totally unsure about fullbacks - seperate them into LB/RB? On the other hand, why not compare Cafu and Roberto Carlos, Brehme and Lahm, Marcelo and Dani Alves? Went for a single category, but only because I had to settle on something.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Synco Looks good to me. Whilst we could have some arguments as harms stated I think possibly a full-backs and attacking full-backs category would better split the full-backs than left and right

 

[harms]

I think I like @Synco's list the most.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Synco Just noticed DMs are with box-to-box CMs - any reason for this? It would seem odd to me to allow Desailly and Paul Breitner into the same category

 

[Synco]

@Synco Just noticed DMs are with box-to-box CMs - any reason for this? It would seem odd to me to allow Desailly and Paul Breitner into the same category

Or Makelele and Keane. No defense, except trying to condense the numerous player types into a manageable number of categories. I took that particular idea from GSTQs shorter list, my earlier one had them seperated. Think the midfield categories as "energetic midfielders with (at least partly) defensive responsibilities" vs "genuine playmakers", as simplistic as that is. But if the general mood is that this compromise isn't acceptable, I can change it back.

The problem is that if you try to represent the various player types accurately, it becomes encyclopaedic instead of comprehensive. If you try to keep it at ~10 categories, some of the mergers will be questionable. (The trouble already starts with goalkeepers.) I went for the second approach, because I like longer lists with more comparison between various players. But there are as many arguments for the other one.

 

[Physiocrat]

Or Makelele and Keane. No defense, except trying to condense the numerous player types into a manageable number of categories. I took that particular idea from GSTQs shorter list, my earlier one had them seperated. Think the midfield categories as "energetic midfielders with (at least partly) defensive responsibilities" vs "genuine playmakers", as simplistic as that is. But if the general mood is that this compromise isn't acceptable, I can change it back.

The problem is that if you try to represent the various player types accurately, it becomes encyclopaedic instead of comprehensive. If you try to keep it at ~10 categories, some of the mergers will be questionable. (The trouble already starts with goalkeepers.) I went for the second approach, because I like longer lists with more comparison between various players. But there are as many arguments for the other one.

Precision vs comprehensiveness is a difficult balance to strike. The reason I mentioned Breitner is that he scored quite a lot of goals and while this rather different than Keane at least both got up and down the pitch unlike a typical DM.

 

[Synco]

Precision vs comprehensiveness is a difficult balance to strike. The reason I mentioned Breitner is that he scored quite a lot of goals and while this rather different than Keane at least both got up and down the pitch unlike a typical DM.

Tbf, other categories will run into similar problems:

Banks - Neuer
Picchi - Beckenbauer
Burgnich - Dani Alves
Xabi Alonso - Modric
Overath - Kaka
Van Basten - Inzaghi

All examples of (sometimes radically) different player types in the same category. If you want to avoid this, you probably end up closer to 20 categories.

But I definitely see your point - perhaps that one goes too far, and I'll think about changing it. It would also make it easier to find a place for players like Lampard, Gerrard, Ballack.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Synco I think you nailed it. I'd just break up DM with B2B and that's it.

 

[Synco]

Bowing to immense pressure from all sides, I have edited the list.

 

[2mufc0]

Made an overhaul for the voting, partly based on ideas from other posters. Tried to condense without shoehorning too much.


Goalkeepers

Sweepers & CB Playmakers

Center Backs / Stoppers

Full Backs

Defensive Midfielders

DLPs & Playmaking CMs

Box-to-box Midfielders

Attacking Midfielders & Classic #10s

Traditional Wingers

Wide Forwards & Secondary/Roaming Strikers

Playmaking Forwards

Strikers


-----
Comments:

Spoiler

• I've increasingly warmed up to putting wide forwards and secondary strikers into one category: so all of Eusebio, C. Ronaldo, Robben, Bale, Blokhin, T. Müller, etc. I think their basic function is similar, no matter if they primarily attack from the flanks or central areas. No coincidence that many players of that kind (and most if not all mentioned above) could fill out both roles on elite level.

• Offensive playmakers are neatly seperated into midfielders and forwards. Should help with the grey areas. Playmaking forwards are both wide & central players.

• I actually prefer keeping sweepers seperate from all other CBs, as their role was so unique. But since that category would probably be too small, I've included (modern) playmaking center backs. Problem will be where to draw the line to regular CBs.

• Totally unsure about fullbacks - seperate them into LB/RB? On the other hand, why not compare Cafu and Roberto Carlos, Brehme and Lahm, Marcelo and Dani Alves? Went for a single category, but only because I had to settle on something.

Looks about right now.

 

[Indnyc]

Made an overhaul for the voting, partly based on ideas from other posters. Tried to condense without shoehorning too much.


Goalkeepers

Sweepers & CB Playmakers

Center Backs / Stoppers

Full Backs

Defensive Midfielders

DLPs & Playmaking CMs

Box-to-box Midfielders

Attacking Midfielders & Classic #10s

Traditional Wingers

Wide Forwards & Secondary/Roaming Strikers

Playmaking Forwards

Strikers


-----
Comments:

Spoiler

• I've increasingly warmed up to putting wide forwards and secondary strikers into one category: so all of Eusebio, C. Ronaldo, Robben, Bale, Blokhin, T. Müller, etc. I think their basic function is similar, no matter if they primarily attack from the flanks or central areas. No coincidence that many players of that kind (and most if not all mentioned above) could fill out both roles on elite level.

• Offensive playmakers are neatly seperated into midfielders and forwards. Should help with the grey areas. Playmaking forwards are both wide & central players.

• I actually prefer keeping sweepers seperate from all other CBs, as their role was so unique. But since that category would probably be too small, I've included (modern) playmaking center backs. Problem will be where to draw the line to regular CBs.

• Totally unsure about fullbacks - seperate them into LB/RB? On the other hand, why not compare Cafu and Roberto Carlos, Brehme and Lahm, Marcelo and Dani Alves? Went for a single category, but only because I had to settle on something.

Looks good

 

[Šjor Bepo]

looks crap tbh

: P

 

[Theon]

That's a perfectly reasonable definition but surely what the player does when they receive the ball or the team is in possession is also important? The way I like to think about it is what role are they playing for the team rather than just their starting position. This is why I thought distinguishing full-backs from attacking-full backs made sense. The former supply supplementary width whereas the latter provides primary width

No because what you are doing is letting the style and abilities of the player dictate their 'position' when in reality its just the case that any one position can be played in a variety of ways.

If Roberto Carlos is an offensive left back in a back four then he shouldn't be shoved into a different category to Denis Irwin just because he was weaker defensively and better offensively - that's the way he played the position as opposed to any distinction in the position itself.

Beckham was a completely different winger to Robben but both are clearly right wingers. The fact that Beckham wasn't a great dribbler or sprinter doesn't mean he should go into a "crossing winger" category, it just means that he had his specific style of playing the position that was different from Robben, which was similarly different to George Best.

Some players who play on the wings place more of an emphasis on goal scoring than others do - doesn't mean they're not playing on the wing. They should be rated against other players in the same position who offer alternative benefits such as better dribbling, crossing or play making abilities.

 

[Theon]

There are also exceptions like Ronaldinho, Messi, Kalle, etc that we can classify in multiple categories, but IMO wing forward defines Messi more than a winger or a SS, #10 or the like.

Yeah Messi is not a winger - he should be in the forward category (or whatever name is given to it). I think Messi's peak performance was as a false #9 under Pep so definitely wouldn't confine him to any wing category. Similarly Rummenigge is clearly not a winger (or a wide forward) as he was just as effective centrally and didn't always play that role.

Ronaldinho and Ronaldo are both left wingers IMO as that was their primary position.

 

[Gio]

I agree with most of that although not so much on Cristiano whose heatmap would look distinctly different than an outside left like Gento.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Theon Given your point here surely then all CMs should be in the same category as their position is the same? So Xavi, Rikjaard and Breitner should be in the same category

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Defensive Midfielders

DLPs & Playmaking CMs

Box-to-box Midfielders

defensive and B2B can be combined. They have lots of overlaps.

 

[Synco]

Looks like nothing will be added anymore at this point. Should we then start with the poll?

 

[harms]

Looks like nothing will be added anymore at this point. Should we then start with the poll?

Yeah.

 

[P-Nut]

Yeah let's get this cracking

 

[Šjor Bepo]

how will this work, thread for every category?

 

[Synco]

Erm, I actually meant the poll on category lists first. My last suggestion got some approval, which is nice, but does this make that poll unnecessary? Would perhaps not be fair to those who prefer a different set of categories. (Except if what happened further up this page is generally seen as some sort of consensus, but not sure about that.)

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Erm, I actually meant the poll on category lists first. My last suggestion got some approval, which is nice, but does this make that poll unnecessary? Would perhaps not be fair to those who prefer a different set of categories. (Except if what happened further up this page is generally seen as some sort of consensus, but not sure about that.)

your list is fine, move along from that or otherwise we will never start with this

 

[Synco]

Okay, I'm not complaining then. People can still protest if they want to.

On the voting, I think we might need a shortlist for each category. Could be quite chaotic otherwise.

 

[Indnyc]

Okay, I'm not complaining then. People can still protest if they want to.

On the voting, I think we might need a shortlist for each category. Could be quite chaotic otherwise.

Put up each category and let people put in their players. We can assign points and then do highest points?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

id do it without shortlist, if we doing a 20 player list each reckon most will have 15 of the same ones in every category.

 

[harms]

Yeah, shortlists defeat the purpose. We'll just have to deal with personal interpretations. I would make a thread for each and give others say, a week, to come up with their list.

Synco's categories btw.

 

[Synco]

That's fine, the easier the better. Main problem I was thinking of was that votes of multidimensional players like Matthäus, Desailly, Thuram, Henry, Yaya, Schweinsteiger (or whoever) might end up in more than one category. Which I imagine to be a drag to disentangle afterwards. Some kind of idea what to do about this would be good, imo.

I would make a thread for each and give others say, a week, to come up with their list.

Sounds good. The opportunity to edit one's vote during that week would solve the other problem I was thinking of: the "ah shit, I forgot xyz" moments. (Would happen to me all the time.)

 

[Physiocrat]

@Synco It may be worth listing the players who could be controversial position wise on here and give the options for the positions so for Thuram CB or RB and try to gauge some consensus

 

[P-Nut]

What's he reason everyone is against having players in multiple positions? It's like an added achievement to the player for making it to an elite level in 2 positions.

 

[Fortitude]

What's he reason everyone is against having players in multiple positions? It's like an added achievement to the player for making it to an elite level in 2 positions.

I agree with this. Someone like Maldini would and should feature on any list for both LB and CB. The same goes for a whole host of players who were legitimately great in more than one position.

I think, however, in order to not blur lines, pseudo-multi-positional players should be locked to a primary position, or placed in their own ecletic category, whereas those who changed permenantly from one position to another (usually via ageing), or were seen in positions enough to be hard to define, should qualify for multiple lists.

Rijkaard*,Breitner, Facchetti, Thuram, Krol, Desailly, Matthäus, Platini, Gullit, Kubala, Messi immediately come to mind here.

*Could legitimately claim the #1 spot in two different positions.

There are obviously loads of other players who blur the lines, but when push comes to shove, they can be more defined by a position, even if it was a dynamic one, players like: V. Mazzola, Di Stefano, Charlton, Ronaldinho, C.Ronaldo, Rumenigge, Boniek and so forth.

Main point is some players had distinct careers in two different positions and, if good enough, should be on two different lists if worthy of them.

 

[Synco]

I think, however, in order to not blur lines, pseudo-multi-positional players should be locked to a primary position, or placed in their own ecletic category, whereas those who changed permenantly from one position to another (usually via ageing), or were seen in positions enough to be hard to define, should qualify for multiple lists.

That's the best solution, imo. Multiple votes allowed for those who for excelled in two distinct positions, but define the positional inbetweeners so their votes aren't split up.

 

[P-Nut]

Yeah agree with all of that @Fortitude Maldini was actually who I was thinking of when I made the point.

 

[Fortitude]

Thanks @Synco & @P-Nut

Glad to be of help.

Some of those who should be on more than one list, are likely to be at least top 5, if not 10 in them, too.

 

[P-Nut]

Thanks @Synco & @P-Nut

Glad to be of help.

Some of those who should be on more than one list, are likely to be at least top 5, if not 10 in them, too.

Yeah it's only really needed for those that will. Otherwise they are likely to be defined more by their primary position.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Will finish this later...

Top 20 GKs

01. L. Yashin
02. G. Buffon
03. D. Zoff
04. G. Banks
05. P. Schmeichel
06. M. Neuer
07. G. Groscis
08. O. Kahn
09. S. Maier
10. E. Van Der Sar
11. I. Casillas
12. P. Shilton
13. N. Southall
14. F. Planicka
15. A. Carrizo
16. P. Jennings
17.
18.
19.
20.

 

[Indnyc]

Are we posting our choices here or a separate thread for each position?