We'd be doing that forever...
Anyway happy to change based on whatever categories are agreed.
RedCafe's Top 20 (30) by Position | Please check out the last threadmark
- Thread starter Stobzilla
- Start date
Anyway happy to change based on whatever categories are agreed.
Keepers
Fullbacks
Centerbacks
Midfielders - all bar offensive ones, so DMs and CMs
Offensive midfielders - 10s, attacking midfielders(Pogba, peak Gerrard etc.), wingers
Forwards - modern "wingers" aka Messi/Ronaldo, second strikers, false nines etc.
Reckon this would be decent if you dont want to many categories...
Fullbacks
Centerbacks
Midfielders - all bar offensive ones, so DMs and CMs
Offensive midfielders - 10s, attacking midfielders(Pogba, peak Gerrard etc.), wingers
Forwards - modern "wingers" aka Messi/Ronaldo, second strikers, false nines etc.
Reckon this would be decent if you dont want to many categories...
It would've made sense if the sweeper's list would've looked like this
- Passarella
- Schulz
- Beckenbauer
Yeah, I think the format, categories and the number of nominations should be agreed upon before the beginning.
As for categories I think these would work without being too detailed (maybe a bit 
)
Goalkeepers
Stoppers CBs
Sweepers CBs
(Possibly Liberos)
Left Backs
Right Backs
Attacking Left Backs
Attacking Right Backs
DMs
Box-to-box Midfielders
Goalscoring 8s
Midfield Playmakers
10s
Traditional Right Winger
Traditional Left Winger
Left Wide attackers
Right Wide attackers
Second-strikers
Strikers
)Goalkeepers
Stoppers CBs
Sweepers CBs
(Possibly Liberos)
Left Backs
Right Backs
Attacking Left Backs
Attacking Right Backs
DMs
Box-to-box Midfielders
Goalscoring 8s
Midfield Playmakers
10s
Traditional Right Winger
Traditional Left Winger
Left Wide attackers
Right Wide attackers
Second-strikers
Strikers
Who would fall into your goalscoring 8s category @Physiocrat ?
Reckon Matthaus and Vidal types.
All right @Physiocrat, I'll make a shorter suggestion partly based on your categories.
Goalkeepers
Sweepers
Center Backs *
Left Backs **
Right Backs **
DMs
Box-to-box CMs ***
Midfield Playmakers & #10s ****
Traditional Wingers
Wide Forwards
Creative/Playmaking Forwards
Strikers
* All CBs not classic sweepers, including modern ball-playing CBs
** LB/RB could also be put together into just "fullbacks & wingbacks"
*** Basically a combination of your B2B and goalscoring #8s categories
**** DLPs could be done seperately, but it may be too specialized
I'm also not against putting wingers and wide forwards into one category, although I can understand the seperation.
Basic idea is that fewer categories allow for more comparison. But in the end I'm fine with anything.
Goalkeepers
Sweepers
Center Backs *
Left Backs **
Right Backs **
DMs
Box-to-box CMs ***
Midfield Playmakers & #10s ****
Traditional Wingers
Wide Forwards
Creative/Playmaking Forwards
Strikers
* All CBs not classic sweepers, including modern ball-playing CBs
** LB/RB could also be put together into just "fullbacks & wingbacks"
*** Basically a combination of your B2B and goalscoring #8s categories
**** DLPs could be done seperately, but it may be too specialized
I'm also not against putting wingers and wide forwards into one category, although I can understand the seperation.
Basic idea is that fewer categories allow for more comparison. But in the end I'm fine with anything.
Matthaus and Vidal would fit but it was mainly created for Frank Lampard/ Yaya Toure types. It's a bit of a niche position to be fair although if you just called it an 8 then Pogba would fit in there too.
Yeah I reckon they sit comfortably in the box to box category.
@Synco
I think we need a second striker category. This has been debated before, but Shevchenko was best as a second-striker but he was hardly creative so I wouldn't put him in the creative forward section. That said their might not be that many second-strikers like Shevchenko so it might not matter.
Midfield play-makers and 10s makes sense as you'd likely only have one of them in your side. Unless you're @Theon
I think we need a second striker category. This has been debated before, but Shevchenko was best as a second-striker but he was hardly creative so I wouldn't put him in the creative forward section. That said their might not be that many second-strikers like Shevchenko so it might not matter.
Midfield play-makers and 10s makes sense as you'd likely only have one of them in your side. Unless you're @Theon
@Synco I’d rather see Xavi, Modric Scholes types in a CM category rather than compared with 10s. To me they’re basically 8s. The question is more about if they are combined with the vertical box to box CMs or have their own category.
Just like DLPs and goalscoring #8s, it might be okay to shoehorn them, when the pool of relevant candidates is rather small - something like "Strikers & Second Strikers". But again, I'd be fine with doing a seperate category too, if people prefer that.
Yeah, I was labouring over the problem of modern playmaking #8s a lot as well.
I think we discussed box to box before and some mentioned that there were goalscoring box to box (like Breitner, Matthaus, Neeskens and Robbo) and more conservative ones like Tigana and Davids purely based on output(as they were pretty key to their teams going forward), which is perhaps fair as B2B are genuinely different in terms of style and can be divided as such.
Of course if you can merge the two categories otherwise it will be difficult to tell where we draw the line.
To me the categorization should be as follows:
GK's
Sweepers/Ball playing defenders
Stoppers/Center backs
Left Backs
Right Backs
Defensive Midfielders (Anchors, Destroyers,etc)
Deep Lying Playmakers (the likes of Pirlo, Xavi, late Schuster)
Box To Box
Attacking Midfielders/ #10's / Advanced playmakers
Left wingers
Right Wingers
Left wing forwards
Right wing forwards
Second strikers
Strikers/center forwards
Sheva was also pretty good all round #9. I wouldn't call him a SS in his best days. He played many games as a #9 with Kaka behind him when Inzaghi was unavailable and with Tomasson besides him who was also a SS/CF hybrid.
That's the list for me.
I’d say that he was a mobile striker (as in not a “target man”), but a striker nonetheless. Like Ronaldo, Henry, Elkjaer, Weah... someone who plays better in a counter attacking system with the ball passed in front of him. Not comparing their quality though and of course Ronaldo/Henry had tons of creativity on top of that, while Sheva was more of a workhorse.
Would agree with most of this, but Sheva also had that mercurial aspect to him, he scored some spectacular goals.
Sheva was a complete package. Well rounded striker. If you are looking for a lone man to lead the line, he would be in top tier.
Yeah, of course, it goes without saying. He’s one of the best strikers of his generation that won’t look out of place in any team. It’s just that I compared him to Ronaldo earlier, so I had to draw the line
I don't know enough about Elkjaer but with the others I would always really want them in a front two
I'd prefer only Henry in a two. Ronaldo (Luis), Sheva, Weah and Elkjaer are all comfortable both alone or with a partner
And even in that front two Henry is the number 9 — if we take his partnership with Bergkamp as a template.
Not on 9 or 9.5, but I don't think Henry would be the best fit as the leading man in a 4-3-2-1.
I think it would massively depend on who the other 2 either side of him are.
Sorry, 4231.
Lads, it’s Edgar.
I'm probably an outlier but I'd like Henry with a proper 9 in a diamond. I think he'd work best with a 9 who can occupy the box which frees him up to do as he pleases he on the inside left with a direct 10 to slip him through. Something like this-
-------------Henry-------Batistuta--------
----------------------Kopa----------------------
----------Nedved---------Beckham--------
---------------------Stielike-------------------
R.Carlos---T.Silva---McGrath---Cafu
Shevchenko was mainly a striker, just a versatile and skilled one rather than a poacher or more limited target man/hold up type so you could easily play him in a two goalscorers setup with someone like Inzaghi. Sergei Rebrov was always the supporting forward/trequartista type for Kiev and Ukraine for instance, Tomasson when Milan used one.
Shevchenko was probably the first forward in a long time that Lobanovsky letpick his battles and mainly be a finisher in and around the box, he still had to put in structured work defensively from the front, but not nearly as much as previous era main forwards like Blokhin, Onyschenko, Protasov and Belanov. I think perhaps he had learned from stifling Protasov to be less dogmatic in his approach to the front line, Protasov was a deadly versatile forward for Dnipro, but liked his tactical freedom and Lobanovsky turned him into a workhorse goal every three games false-forward that was much more subsumed into the build-up play like Belanov.
I like the solution of putting DLPs and playmaking #8s (Xavi) into one category.
What I don't quite get: Are playmaking forwards like Cruijff, Messi, Bergkamp, Totti seen as advanced playmakers or second strikers here? They're kind of both at once to me, so maybe best put into a category of their own?
And as a matter of personal preference, I don't favour splitting the winger categories into LW/RW. I'd rather have Ronaldo & Robben on the same list for example, similar for players in the "classic" winger bracket like Giggs, Pires, Beckham, Figo. But if the majority prefers otherwise it's okay of course.
That's pukeworthy.
I think my previous Shevchenko discussion means we should probably replace second striker with central creative forward, or something like that, to accommodate the creative second striker types like Baggio, Del Piero and Rivaldo. Cruyff would probably fit well in there as would Messi and Bergkamp. I'd put Totti as advanced playmaker mainly because of his role in the 2000 Roma Scudetto winning side where he played behind Batistuta and Montella.
That's reasonable but then we should then not distinguish between left and right backs for a similar reason.
Alright, if the second striker category means exactly that, then all's cleared up. (I'd have Totti in that bracket, not least because he was deployed as a false 9 for Roma in some seasons, even winning the Golden Boot in that role in 06/07.)
I suggested that too in post #48, although I have to say it still feels better to divide fullbacks than wingers. I can't really say why.
But in the end I could live with any outcome, the main purpose is the voting. So I think I'll take a step back now & wait what people decide.
What does everyone think of renaming the second striker role to a creative central forward position? It would be more descriptive and would allow us to put in players like false 9s there too.
For context see my previous few posts with Synco.
For context see my previous few posts with Synco.
Well to me you can easily fit all those mentioned in some of the categories like Messi In wise forwards, Bergkamp, Totti as second strikers etc.
The reason why we have wide forwards and wingers imo is because they serve a very different purpose and tactics schemes. For example you can’t put Messi and Neymar in 4-4-2 as wide midfielders. And we have Becks who isn’t really a wide forward.
Second strikers generally are more advanced than #10 but that doesn’t mean that they can’t be creative.
Misunderstanding, I meant dividing each category into right and left sided players, not the distinction between classic wingers and wide forwards. So I was basically rooting for two categories instead of four.